KC Plan Against Kamara
 

Re: KC Plan Against Kamara
 

kinda like basketball, take away/blanket the most viable option- game, set, match. I'd like a rematch with a healthy squad.

Re: KC Plan Against Kamara
 

That's what teams do in the playoffs and we never seem to have an answer.

Re: KC Plan Against Kamara
 

Agreed they had 2 threats , Sanders and Kamara, takes those 2 out of the plan and Brees is playing with JV squad vs SB champs.

Re: KC Plan Against Kamara
 

We had 17 rushes and 34 pass attempts with Kamara averaging 4.9 YPC on 11 carries.

KC didn’t take Kamara out, Sean Payton did.

Re: KC Plan Against Kamara
 

It would be nice to see that flipped to 34 rushes and 17 pass attempts once we hit post season :p.

Probably wishful thinking on my part though.

Re: KC Plan Against Kamara
 

As a team, the Saints rushed 17 times for 60 yards and a 3.5 average. KC clearly was hyper focused on making DB#9 beat them with his arm. AK#41 is a playmaker, that’s why he had that yardage per carry. I’m a huge fan of his, but if you Ditka him, he won’t be available for the playoffs.

Saints defense saw 41 rushes for 179 yards against them. Mahomes had a 5.3 yard per carry average, but once again, Ditka him and he’ll get banged up real quick.

Both are superstar athletes, but neither are bruisers. Extrapolating a 4.9 average or Mahome’s 5.3 average to double or triple the amount of touches will come with a cost.

Re: KC Plan Against Kamara
 

Once again, defense can easily dictates offense.

Anyone that is so insistent about our not running the ball enough last game needs to go possession by possession, play by play and indicate in their opinion where the run was needed instead of the executed pass. Also take into consideration what the defense was showing on that play.

Let me know if you need the link to the plays. Easy to find.

I see a lot of "what they should have done" but we'd all love to see what you would have done.

Re: KC Plan Against Kamara
 

Gotcha, it’s easy to be critical and not put skin in the game, so to speak. Personally, I would have ran the ball more, I just wouldn’t have done it exclusively with Kamara. Run it with Murray or put Hill under center in those short yardage cases. Murray btw is also an excellent ball catcher, I would have used him more in that respect. There were a few 3rd and 2’s and 3rd and 4’s that could have been pure runs. Regardless, CSP called what he thought would be most successful, and it just didn’t work out, either due to player execution, or just the wrong plays (from the sideline or in the huddle). But those multiple one minute offensive series, consisting of one run and two incompletions were brutal. 3rd down was a serious problem VERY early in the game, several posters here commented on it, along with time of possession. I would have thought the Saints quant team would have seen it also, and changes made to address the absolute brutal “wearing that hiney out” of the defense. Running, even if the play/series fails would at least give the defense time to make it to the bench and cop a squat before getting back up.

wrt This upcoming game, stopping Cook is obvious, make Cousins beat you in the air. I have confidence in our coverage, don’t let Cousins get confident or allow Jefferson/Thielen to dictate the pace of the game..., bully them at the line of scrimmage. Jefferson has 21 plays rated as “big” (big = run plays covering 12+ yards and pass plays covering 16+ yards, iirc). He can not be allowed to run free without help.

A not so obvious point is Minnesota’s inability to stop the opposing team’s 4th down conversions. Minnesnowta’s opponents have been in 4th down position 22 times and 15 of them were converted, for an amazingly high 68.2% conversion rate. If I cross midfield, I go for it on anything 4th & 2 and under, every time.

Re: KC Plan Against Kamara
 

Re: KC Plan Against Kamara
 

Re: KC Plan Against Kamara
 

The New Orleans Saints do not have a Terrell Davis running back outside of Murray. We tried that “run all the time mantra”..., it was the Ditka era. Football has changed a lot in the over 20+ years since Terrell Davis rushed 30 times for over 150 yards and 25 times for over 100 yards in their back to back SB’s, iirc.

Regardless, I’ll do my best to address my way of looking at Kamara being “taken out by CSP”. Every game rushing stats for Kamara this season:

Week 1: 12 carries, 16 yards 1 TD Saints win 34-23 over the Bucs
Week 2: 13 carries, 79 yards 2 TD’s, Saints lose 34-24 to Da Raiders
Week 3: 6 carries, 58 yards, Saints lose 37-30 to the Pack
Week 4: 19 carries, 83 yards, 1 TD, Saints win 35-29 over the Lions
Week 5: 11 carries, 45 yards, Saints OT win 30-27 over the Chargers
Week 6: Bye
Week 7: 14 carries, 83 yards, Saints win 27-24 over Carolina
Week 8: 12 carries, 67 yards, Saints OT win over Da Bears
Week 9: 9 carries, 40 yards, 1 TD, Saints demolish TB 38-3
Week 10: 8 carries, 15 yards, 2 TD’s, Saints win 27-13 over the 49’ers
Week 11: 13 carries, 45 yards, 1 TD, Saints win 24-9 over the Falcons
Week 12: 11 carries, 54 yards, Saints win 31-3 over no QB Broncos
Week 13: 15 carries, 88 yards, 1 TD, Saints win 21-16 over the Falcons
Week 14: 11 carries, 50 yards 1 TD, Saints lose 24-21 to Philly
Week 15: 11 carries, 54 yards, Saints lose 32-29 to KC

Throwing out the low rush (anomalous stat) of 6 in week 3, and also the high rush stat from week 4 of 19, along with the bye and you have Kamara rushing the ball 140 times over 12 games. That’s just under 12 touches per game.

Bottom line, Saints are 10-4 with Kamara roughly at the 11 to 12 touches per game mark. I truly don’t see the correlation between feeding him specifically more rushes and winning more games. Amount of touches in the KC game wasn’t unusual. If you believe CSP “took Kamara out” of the KC game, then you must believe he has also taken him out of every other game this season also, sans the 19 carry game.

And I have been, still am, a Huge Kamara fan, along with CGM. Easily two of my favorite Saints. But Kamara, nor Murray are Terrell Davis.

Regardless, I’ll be away from the forums a bit, Holiday travel in just a few hours, hopefully I’ll be in the gameday chat this Friday, but when I’m with family, they are my priority. My digital devices go away, completely, lol, the Luddite in me. I do enjoy these debates, I learn a ton from everybody else. These are just my opinions, doesn’t mean I’m right, or that I devalue any other’s opinions. It simply means I see the numbers in different ways!

I hope everyone is safe, with loved ones if possible, and you have all the gingerbread cookies a person could ask for. I truly do.

Re: KC Plan Against Kamara
 

I will address the “taken out by CSP”

Kamara was averaging 5 yds a carry against one of the worst run defense teams in the NFL and Brees admittingly had '... a little way to go.'

Why would you not continue to call running plays? After the initial 14-0 start the game was not so far out of hand that the Saints had to throw every down.

I still believe that Taysom would have given the Saints the best chance of beating KC, not because Hill is a better QB, but he has 2 weapons that Brees doesn't:
1. Scrambling
2. The long ball

Re: KC Plan Against Kamara
 

The Kamara stat was showing that we could run on them, he had 19 carries on Detroit and 15 on Atlanta but arguing Kamara’s durability is moot.

This is a ‘bigger picture’ discussion. The discussion about going into a game using your weakest facet and attacking their strength and expecting to win against Patrick Mahommes with that cr4p.

KC gives up an average of 123 yards rushing per game and we left 60 yards of that on the field. Mahommes generally comes out in the 3rd/4th quarter and blisters defenses, we needed to control the clock on the ground to keep our defense as fresh as possible for that 2nd half.

Remember that other RB we have Murray, the one that didn’t get a touch until the 4th possession? We never committed to a run game 0-6 passing to start the game tells me that is where we committed.

So to summarize, we faced a 21st (I believe they were 26th before we decided to not run on them) ranked rushing defense that also happens to rank #2 in interceptions with practice squad receivers a rusty QB and our running backs on the bench. How did we do? Threw an interception that led to 7 for the opponent, and only ran 1 RB the first three possessions. Our first two possessions were 2 runs, 4 passes and an INT. We had not run enough to know it was shut down at this point.

We can bull**** ourselves all we want pretending that KC shut our run down or we can recognize that it was the performance on the sidelines and not the field that led to a loss.

FYI in case we have not noticed, our kicker is in a slump. Lutz hasn’t made a FG since Denver, missed 3 of his last 3 attempts and the Phi loss was within the margin of his misses. He didn’t miss against KC because the offense couldn’t get him close enough to attempt one.

Re: KC Plan Against Kamara
 

Have a wonderful Christmas
And god bless


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Re: KC Plan Against Kamara
 

Vikings on tomorrow.

I'll be curious to see what the game plan will be offensively w/ Sean P.

Re: KC Plan Against Kamara
 

I can tell you, K. Basically like most Zimmer/Payton matches, abandon the run early and play into zimmers gameplan to stop us

Re: KC Plan Against Kamara
 

Dalvin Cook vs Kwon Alexander

Theilan /Justin Jefferson (IMO will be rookie of the year) vs Jenkins /Lattimore.

Brees vs Vikes D & Harrison Smith on the back end.

I'm looking forward to watching these match ups.

Re: KC Plan Against Kamara
 

The game plan and what plays are actually executed during the game can differ quite a bit. That's the point Coach Weis was trying to make. I have zero doubt the game plan is ALWAYS to run the ball as much as possible. But Payton's philosophy has ALWAYS been to take what the defense offers. It all comes down to execution whether the play is a run or a pass.

Re: KC Plan Against Kamara
 

It just might be that our run game is not happening because of our Offensive line’s performance this year. A lot of our effectiveness in the run game has come in 3rd and 4th qts after Brees has March the team down the field with multiple long play and time consuming drives wearing down the opposing defense. I just don’t get the run run run mantra when it’s not working it’s not working.
We only see what we see on TV with no insight into what the coaches and player are dealing with in real time and the impact their input has on the play calling. When the offense is controlling the time of possession and can run the ball, they do. But I have alway felt we are a pass first run second team and the run game is only effective when the passing game is forcing the defense out of an 8 man box.

Underhill talked about in his week podcast this week, he was at the game and talked about the velocity and distance Brees was throwing the ball ... ergo Sanders touchdown reception. But several of his throws to the the out routes were very strong throws.

With regards to Kamara opposing team have game planned him out of the pass to the flat coming out of the backfield or the wheel routes. Screens where not possible with Taysom because of the one speed fits all throws, how many balls did we see ricocheting of receivers hands in these type throws.

But at the end of the day like most I am just a fan, a fan who has been watching the team since September 17 1967. Missed some but not many, my parent would tape games and send them to me while I was in the military, 22 years worth. Later when working in Asia I would follow using the early version
Of sling box often up at 1:00 AM watching live. Retired now I miss little of any print digital or game weather home in Louisiana or out west in the desert.

Re: KC Plan Against Kamara
 

Your eyes do not deceive you. You are seeing the same thing I am seeing.

Re: KC Plan Against Kamara
 

I know we are coming off a short week and a loss against the champs & playing on Christmas Day however ..

Division title is on the line. Take it personal from last years playoff loss & leave no doubt.

If Coach Sean Payton is ever gonna bring his A game vs Zimmer, tomorrow is it.

Re: KC Plan Against Kamara
 

Saints / Vikes preview

Re: KC Plan Against Kamara
 

They don't stop the run well and we have a potent passing game with one or two decent receivers on the field.

Revenge Game! Something tells me that even though it's a short week we'll be highly motivated to kick a$$. :p

Re: KC Plan Against Kamara
 

I was high on Jefferson in the draft, him and Queen. I’m not a LSU homer like that but I thought those guys had the goods.

Re: KC Plan Against Kamara
 

Re: KC Plan Against Kamara
 

I’m only a run, run, run guy when you are up against a team that allows the run but nearly leads the league in interceptions, and 0-6 passing and an INT later we are still trying to throw.

You can focus on Drews arm if you wish but even if he is throwing like his arm was blessed by the baby Jesus himself, and our line is blocking like a Venetian chastity belt, if the receivers can’t get separation and aren’t catching you are 0-6 and that’s no first downs, little time off the clock, risk of INTs.

Interceptions are always blamed on the QB but the higher percentage of interceptions are tipped or contested throws and not clean picks.

You mention Drew marching down the field wearing defenses out making our running game better but Drew hasn’t done that in over a month and our best rushing games have been with him off the field.. When your QB can average over 4.5 YPC on 10 attempts per game, your run blocking is working. :bng:

As far as for pass first run second or only running when there isn’t an 8 man box that’s really a chicken or egg isn’t it? The fact that we are an anything first, anything second weakens our effectiveness as both actions open the other up. If you aren’t balanced then you are predictable and if you are predictable then defenses know what’s coming. In 2009 we were 53/47 split pass/run then for many seasons we were closer to 60% pass, 40% run= more predictable and less successful.


tl;dr version

If Drew Brees has a completion percentage below 45%, why in the hell are you passing? Please don’t blame practice squad receivers, if you are going to game plan on Monday and execute on Sunday with the same plan but different people then we are right back to losing games on the sidelines because there is no improvisation or adaptation.

You are a veteran so you understand me when I say, we aren’t adjusting to down range conditions which makes us less effective.

Re: KC Plan Against Kamara
 

Battle plan is great until the first shot is fired then “ Improvise Adapt and Overcome”

43% completion rate is an outlier ... some of that is on Brees trying to hit the deep routes early on but you have to acknowledge he had no favors from the receiving group. Maybe folks like Cooks got use the the plan called in the huddle and did pay attention to the adjustment Brees was making Pre snap.

Against KC the Saints could not run effectively till later in the game when they went to spread offense and the play action was more effective.

Re: KC Plan Against Kamara
 

Should not wait for the first shot to be fired to assess the battlefield. Ever.
We didn’t adapt or improvise, the completion rate isn’t an outlier it was the game with the first three possessions being 0% and an INT.

1st possession
5 yard rush
Incomplete pass
Incomplete pass
Punt

2nd possession
5 yard rush
Incomplete pass
Interception

3rd possession
4 yard rush
2 yard rush
Incomplete pass
Punt

4th possession
Incomplete pass
3 yard rush
-9 yard sack
Punt

5th possession
7 yard rush
1st complete pass for 6 yards
Incomplete pass
Incomplete pass
2nd complete pass for 51 yards.
2 yard rush
1 yard rushing TD

6th possession
11 yard rush
2 yard rush
Penalty
3 yard rush (Peat got hurt)
Incomplete pass
Punt penalty
Punt again

7th possession
21 yard pass to Kamara
8 yard pass to Cook
Incomplete pass
Incomplete pass
Fumble
Half

We literally did nothing effectively in the first half but run. I’m not sure what game you were watching but it isn’t the same game that I watched.