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Idea/Challenge for B&G?

this is a discussion within the NOLA Community Forum; SCSF - great ideas. Thanks for the input....

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Old 03-28-2005, 10:48 AM   #21
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Idea/Challenge for B&G?

SCSF - great ideas. Thanks for the input.
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Old 03-28-2005, 10:53 AM   #22
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Idea/Challenge for B&G?

I\'m sorry, but I don\'t see the merit in this suggestion. This isn\'t anything that the 4 of you (or 6, or whatever) cannot already accomplish with a normal thread. You do have a history of this sort of thing, right? So, what\'s the point?

If you don\'t want other members getting you off topic, ignore their posts.

I\'m a big fan of the deep debate that goes on around here from time to time, but most of those are conjured from spontaneity rather than from form or purpose.

But, hey, do what you want...
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Old 03-28-2005, 11:07 AM   #23
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Idea/Challenge for B&G?

Hey, I didn\'t mean to offend anyone. And I hope I don\'t offend anyone when I say this ....

Even if I don\'t participate in this, I still think it\'s a good idea. I know I would enjoy reading a \"closed\" debate that is kept stictly on the topic at hand. I would also enjoy \"voting\" on which team won.

ScottyRo made a point that we really didn\'t need a \"closed\" thread as we could accomplish the samething in a regular thread. I, however, think differently. Oh ... we could still post our opinions, but I think this would bring a different perspective.

Again, no matter who is on what team, I think it would be interesting.

And what\'s the harm in trying. If it fails, hey ... it fails.

How anyone could get offended is beyond me.

Hey, if I think I\'m right, I will argue till the death. Some others do the same. Some don\'t.

In any event, I\'mI just tossing ideas out there that would bring something different to the board.

[Edited on 28/3/2005 by GumboBC]
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Old 03-28-2005, 11:12 AM   #24
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Idea/Challenge for B&G?

I think the around the horn idea would be good, but you need someone(impartial) to score the debate. You could actually get four participants, bring up the point to be argued and score each post by awarding points. You whittle it down every two rounds and then you have your winner. Again, the problem is having an impartial MOD as we know there are certain people with preexisting biases that would color the judgement. (ie Gumbo could never \"judge\" an AB debate)
There would also have to be rules set to keep certain people from using sophmoric insults and dragging debates into the mud. (Stuff like \"if you think Horn is as good as Brandon Stokley you should be drug out in the street and shot\".) Some people here just need to learn how to debate as opposed toslinging insults like teenagers. If that could happen, it could be fun.
But...it needs to be something a little different. Gumbo\'s initial proposal basically describes a message board where only a few people can participate, which is why a couple of people took exception. Score it like ATH and you might have something worthy of \"spectators\".
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Old 03-28-2005, 03:32 PM   #25
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Idea/Challenge for B&G?

and what would be the purpose of this? If you want to glorify yourself why don\'t you write some articles for the TP. You think you four are the only ones that can debate? Come on Billy show a little respect to the rest of the gang here.

:band2.sml:
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Old 03-28-2005, 03:48 PM   #26
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Idea/Challenge for B&G?

Didn\'t see this coming. He started a debate about starting a debate. Congrats.
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Old 03-28-2005, 03:49 PM   #27
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Idea/Challenge for B&G?

Way to jump in there Cheramie. Did you read any of the other posts to this thread? It\'s not all about Billy.
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Old 03-28-2005, 04:15 PM   #28
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Idea/Challenge for B&G?

Why don\'t you four schedule a time in the chat room. That way, it\'s real time, and it would actually be a debate. If you feel as if you need a moderator, I\'d be willing, but the timing would need to be right.
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Old 03-28-2005, 04:17 PM   #29
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Idea/Challenge for B&G?



Hasn\'t Billy tried this Idea before?...as I remember..it never even got off the ground before it was getting ugly...

[Edited on 28/3/2005 by shadowdrinker] [/quote:9f0f3d7ed9]


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Old 03-28-2005, 04:47 PM   #30
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Idea/Challenge for B&G?

This is a great idea for several reasons. In this post I will talk about the biggest
-This will keep the debate on the presented argument

Ex. The post on the Saints five most important players in \'05. I will show a few posts from that to demonstrate how far off topic we went.

Gumbo BC
For all the problems the Saints have had over the past few years ... no problem has been bigger than the defense. Of course ... Aaron Brooks has taken the majority of the blame for the team not making the playoffs, but it\'s really the defense that has let this team down.

It\'s hard to imagine any defense that\'s been worse than the Saints over the past 4 years. Then again ... I say that every year!! But last year\'s defensive performace proved to me that things can always get worse.

Is it possible that the Saints\' defense could be even worse in \'05? Let\'s hope not!!

I think if the Saints are to go anywhere in \'05 that the run defense must hold opponents to under 100-yards rushing. That\'s a tall task for a defense who finished 32nd the previous year.

Still, it\'s possible that the defense can turn it around. But, that improvement is going to have to come from with-in the current group of players. Players such as Brian Young and Howard Green must play better at the DT position this year if we are going to stop the run. While you hear terms like \"high motor\" and \"good character\" about both players, the simple truth is neither player perfomed very well in \'04.

Even if Brian Young and Howard Green step their game up to another level this year, there are still big question marks at all the linebacker positions.

This is another area where the current group of players must take their game to another level. Most of the pressure, however, is going to be placed on 2nd year MLB Courtney Watson. While you hear terms like \"smart\",\" instinctive\", and \"intelligent\" when Watson is mentioned ... what you don\'t hear are terms such as: \"proven\" and \"play-maker.\" The same thing can be said for all of the linebackers.

Unless another defensive player is picked up, the 5 most important players on the team this year will be:

1. Howard Green.
2. Brian Young.
3. Courtney Watson.
4. James Allen.
5. Colby Bockwoldt.

Let\'s hope all 5 guys can step it up this year or we might be in for another very disappointing season.

Of course, the wild card in all of this is Jonathan Sullivan. Well, that and the possible Darren Howard trade. I think getting a proven MLB and sliding Watson to the outside would make all the difference. But as it stands right now, it\'s not looking very good.
Saintwhodi
LB, for the first time, maybe ever, I am gonna disagree with you. I have to go with GT. Deuce is the focal point of the offense. Just because teams may gear to stop him, doesn\'t mean he isn\'t the focal point. It just means the other team KNOWS he is the focal point. It is the players\' around him\'s job to make sure they get it done. Think teams don\'t know Priest Holmes is the focal point? Jamal Lewis? LT? Yes those players still get it done, and you don\'t get more one dimensional then Baltimore. Statements like
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I guess I\'m saying that Gumbo is correct when he says that we have to depend on our defense to be able to stop people until the offense can get it in gear
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is not fair to the defense. How long do they have to stop people until the offense gets in gear? This year it was pretty much every first quarter and close to a half, not to mention turnovers by the offense WHILE they weren\'t scoring. I agree with GT\'s list. Don\'t get me wrong, the D NEEDS to step up, but if we see the offense scoring earlier and more often than they did last year, the D becomes less important, but again I will say it is still HUGE for them to improve.
Gumbo BC
saintwhodi --

It\'s not fair to the defense? Excuse me, but I have a very hard time feeling sorry for the defense.

Is it asking to much for them to finish 15th in the NFL regardless of how our offense plays?
Gumbo BC
I suppose I could be spinning things? But, I\'m not!

What\'s utterly amazing to me is how some fans cannot seperate actual production from potential. This is not to knock anyone, it\'s just to point out how some look at things and others see something different.

I really think all of us would be better served looking at actual production rather than potential. Because when we talk about potential, I think we start to overrate certain players.

All potential means is: \"They haven\'t done it yet\". Is that spin? I think not...

A classsic example of looking at potential instead of actual production is Donte\' Stallworth. Based on potential, Stallworth is an elite receiver. Based on production, however, Stallworth has been very inconsistent in his NFL career. Before last season, folks were calling Stallworth a BUST. Last year Stallworth managed to silence some of his critics, but he hardly lived up to his \"hype\" nor did he live up to his first round draft status.

Boo Williams is another one! The coverted WR has shown flashes. But, like Stallworth, he\'s been very inconsistent. Are there actually fans who think Boo is the answer at TE? Based on what? Potential?!

Wayne Gandy is another one. In fact ... Gandy is probably one of the most inconsistent players on the team. Between his false starts and his \"questionable\" blocking, he has really been inconsistent.

I\'ve only listed a few players who are very questionable. There are many more ...

Here are some players that have been counted on very heavily at one time or another:

1. Victor Riley.
2. Ernie Conwell.
3 Derrick Rodgers
4. James Allen
5. Sedrick Hodge.
6. Ashely Ambrose.
7. Fred Thomas
8. Mel Mitchell
9. Jonathan Sullivan.

Just take a look at all of the players I\'ve listed. It\'s not hard to figure out why this team has struggled. No, talent is not the only thing that\'s been the problem. But, it\'s hard to say that this team is overly talented.

Now, as far as the defense goes. Not taking any blame off of the offense, but to say our defesne hasn\'t been the BIGGEST problem is a little mis-guided, IMHO.
Baronm
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I suppose I could be spinning things? But, I\'m not!

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dude you spin stuff more than clinton\'s campaign team....


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A classsic example of looking at potential instead of actual production is Donte\' Stallworth. Based on potential, Stallworth is an elite receiver. Based on production, however, Stallworth has been very inconsistent in his NFL career. Before last season, folks were calling Stallworth a BUST. Last year Stallworth managed to silence some of his critics, but he hardly lived up to his \"hype\" nor did he live up to his first round draft status.

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true but the same could be said about other players who have been playing for five years...for the saints..


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1. Victor Riley.
2. Ernie Conwell.
3 Derrick Rodgers
4. James Allen
5. Sedrick Hodge.
6. Ashely Ambrose.
7. Fred Thomas
8. Mel Mitchell
9. Jonathan Sullivan.


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they\'re not questionable..they are either old or just plain suck.
Gumbo
baronm -

First, I read your last post and I think you did a very good job of evaluating our defense. Good job.

But, look ....

it\'s not your place to decide what is a valid topic and what isn\'t. Hell, I\'m sick of all the \"mock\" draft threads. But, I just don\'t read \'em or post in them.
Joe Sam
Thank you both Gumbo and Baron, for defusing what could have become another thread I\'d have to edit. I too get tired of somethings posted for what seems like the umpteenth time but most of the time at least the poster tries to come from a different slant. I have the idea that if I don\'t like what\'s in a thread I don\'t have to (a) read it and (b) post to it. What I do get tired of(since I have to read every single post to every single thread) is when a poster chooses to belittle another member because he dosen\'t like the post. That I will edit! We are here to talk Saints football and NFL football and that\'s it.

So thanks again guys for trying to make our job easier.

See, I don\'t play favorites, I even edit myself!
WhoDat
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I really think all of us would be better served looking at actual production rather than potential. Because when we talk about potential, I think we start to overrate certain players.
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Does that work both ways? Are certain players * cough * Horn * cough * underrated based on what they actually do on the field?
Danno
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quote:
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I really think all of us would be better served looking at actual production rather than potential. Because when we talk about potential, I think we start to overrate certain players.
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Does that work both ways? Are certain players * cough * Horn * cough * underrated based on what they actually do on the field?
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Ooooh, thats a good point.

And take the draft. Since not one single player has proven themselves on the NFL level, should we ignore their potential? Is Derrick Johnson over-rated? Alex Smith? Aaron Rogers? Ronnie Brown? After all all they have is potential, they haven\'t proven squat.

The fact is every year, every team designs its team based on what they think each player can do for you in the upcoming season.

You can\'t separate potential from the equation. Joe Horn has potential in 2005. He has potential to let his age catch up to him and regress, but he also has the potential to have an even better 2005 than 2004. The only difference is some players have a history in the NFL that allows teams to more accurately predict his potential for the upcoming year.

So there it is. A topic started at most important players, went to a two person argument that JoeSam was forced to stop, and ended up with Joe Horn.
An organized debate would allow us to talk about the issue or question presented and not everyhting else.

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