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Saints | Hedging Their Bets? - posted at KFFL (http://nfl.kffl.com)
5:36 PT: The Boston Herald reports New England Patriots S Tebucky Jones is still a Patriot and likely will stay that way. "I don't think it's going to happen," said New Orleans Saints Jim Haslett. They are the only team to have publicly expressed interest in Jones, to this point. "We'd like to have him, definitely. Just not at the price they're insisting on." Though the Patriots said there have been "no negotiations, none" between them and any other team about Jones, several Saints sources indicated that the compensation issue has been established. The Saints are offering a third-round pick, the Patriots are insisting on a second-round pick. "We're not going to (give up a second-round pick)," said Haslett, who added that the Saints already began looking in another direction and are likely to sign a different free safety this week.

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\"I guess nothing has happened as of late to inspire me to think this will be a turning point. Hence the thoughts of this being a sinking ship next year.\" - Gatorman

Well Gator, I guess you were right in the first place. Sinking ship. They may get better through the draft, but they won\'t improve enough on D to have a real shot.

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Hey Gator, our dingy will always float. You can always find second and third tier players in free agency. You can always add some good players through the draft. But as long as we\'re only keeping players until they\'re good enough to want more money, as long as we don\'t take steps to bring in some young experienced top talent, we\'ll always have a dingy... never a yacht.

My question for all of you people that think the Saints are doing exactly what they should be doing is - when is this future date that we are supposed to finally be contenders? You keep saying that the Saints shouldn\'t go out and get high profile free agents b/c it puts the future in jeopardy. Whereas, if we take our shot now, if we sell the farm for this year or next year, we have a shot at a title now, but then we have to \"rebuild\". Aren\'t we supposedly \"rebuilding\" on defense RIGHT NOW? Haven\'t we \"rebuilt\" our offense over the last two or three seasons.

Don\'t mortgage the future for today huh? What future? A perpetual 9-7 team that doesn\'t make the playoffs? A team that is always a couple of years away? Tell me, when do you start to expect results? I want a date from you people, just so I know when I can begin to expect this team to put a winner on the field. This year, next, the year after? Haslett has been here for three years. He\'s had plenty of time. They squandered an incredibly talented team and a great opportunity last year. This year remains put up or shut up year for me. They don\'t do it this year, it\'s house cleaning time. Want me to find quotes where you said the exact same thing Gator? ;)

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I have one thing to say about Jim Haslett. In my opinion he is the best coach the Saints have ever had. Sure, Jim Mora took the Saints to the playoffs four times, but what did he do then? HE CHOKED! Terrible play-calling is his bag, baby, when it comes to the play-offs. Mike Ditka? WHAT A JOKE! The only reason he won in Chicago that season was because his team was LOADED with talent...Everyone thought Ditka was going to be our savior. Has comes in and takes a team that wasn\'t supposed to produce SQUAT and won the division with a 10-6 record and beat the defending Super Bowl champions, not once, but TWICE that year. Sure they had a meltdown the next season. They got the poison out and worked on it. Yeah they had a slighter meltdown this season, but that isn\'t all to be put on Haslett\'s shoulders. You say Haslett has had enough time to turn the team into a winner? I believe he\'s just begun. Other than Jim Mora, what other Saints coach has a winning percentage OVER .500 in Saints history? After many years of obscurity, the Saints are actually playing decent football. They\'re hanging in there with the contenders and winning. If they can ever figure out how to play against the pretenders, then this team will be a force. 3 years is hardly enough time to turn a team that is notorious for losing into a contending team. You may argue that other teams have done it, but for crying out loud, we are the Saints. When have they ever done what the other teams have done? Now quit being so stinking negative about everything, WhoDat. I want to see the Saints win the Super Bowl or hell, even improve over last year, more than ANYONE. I\'m just not going to criticize every single move they make just because it isn\'t what I WOULD LIKE THEM TO DO. I\'m not the GM, you\'re not the GM, nor is anyone in here. We can bellyache and moan over each decision made, but there has got to be a logical reason behind what their plans are. The only way I wouldn\'t say it to be logical is if Kuharich were still the GM.....then we\'d be in serious trouble.

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:mad: There you guys go bringing me down again. Let us go over last season\'s wins. We beat the super bowl team twice last year. Packers, Steelers, Niners. All play-off teams. I tend to think that the offense this year will be even better than last year. And our defense will be better. Maybe there\'s a lack of killer instinct. The Saints have a history of not knowing how to win when it really matters. I\'m with Pak, we may have a 12-4 team here. They just need to be more aggresive. Smell blood and and finish a team off. I\'ll probably still pick up AB for my fantasy football team again.
Whodat, go to your local health store and pick up some serotonin. Or get some prozac from your doctor. Get enough for Gatorman too.

[Edited on 24/3/2003 by iceshack149]

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I refuse to be redundant :casstet:

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You know what - you guys are the ones that need the medicine. Seriously - why is what I\'m saying so wrong? B/c I don\'t think that the Saints will be 16-0 and win the Super Bowl in a walk next year? Give me a F$&%ing break. If you think that the ultimate responsibility of what ANY team does falls on the shoulders of anyone other than the coach, then you do NOT understand sports. Haslett is exactly the person who is ultimately responsible for how this team plays.

If a team has bad players, not getting to the playoffs may be acceptible. However, that team should still perform up to their potential. The New Orleans Saints had the talent to win the NFC South and have a bye in the first round of the playoffs last year. HASLETT is responsible for the TEAM\'S failure. Furthermore, find me a team that has gone to the Super Bowl in the last five years that didn\'t have a coach who had gone to his first within his first three or four years. Callahan - first year, Gruden - first year, Mike Martz - second year, Belichick - second year, Fassel - 3rd year, Billick - 2nd year... do you want more? In fact, the odds are now more strongly against Haslett to go to the Super Bowl than they were when he first got here.

Gator is absolutely right. If this team chokes again Haslett will be fired. Furthermore, I don\'t care if I\'m bringing you down. This board doesn\'t exist so that we can all blow sunshine up each other\'s asses complimenting the great work that the Saints are doing. They\'re not. I love that all of you are so confident in this group. It amazes me that you are always so quick to side with the current coach, or GM, or owner, but as soon as a new one comes along the last one was totally crazy. It just makes me more secure in my own opinion, b/c I know if this team chokes this year and Haslett is fired, the same people talking about how Loomis and Haslett know exactly what it is that they\'re doing now, will be the ones talking about how we shouldn\'t even bring up their names b/c they were obviously dillusional.

Even more ridiculous is the perception. Why is Haslett a good coach? Why isn\'t he simply the recipient of a talented team? He is supposed to be a \'defensively minded players coach.\' That\'s all I\'ve heard him billed as. A strong-willed, no nonsense, defensive players coach. Does that sound like Haslett to you? Numerous players have talked about how the Saints show no loyalty to their players. Turley talked about his disreguard for player issues. I have NEVER heard a straight answer from him. In fact, with each collapse his answers become more babble and double-speak. Finally, this is the WORST defense the Saints have had in my lifetime - and the team bends under the pressure of the playoffs. Yeah, that\'s exactly the kind of strong-willed, non-nonsense, defensively minded, happy player team you would expect right?

Bottom line - the Saints have NOT improved on defense. Maybe they still can. I hope so. But, again, I will say that if this team doesn\'t seriously step it up in the off-season and get some talented experienced players in here on the defensive side of the ball don\'t expect much better than 9-7 and third in the division - a losing record and last in the division is not out of the question either.

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I don\'t expect everyone to blow sunshine up everyone\'s ass on this board, but give me a break, dude. I don\'t believe you\'ve posted one POSITIVE thing about the Saints in many of your last posts. It almost sounds like you aren\'t a fan. But to say that people \"do NOT understand sports at all\" is just a flat out insult, Mr. GodOFKnowingEverythingAboutSports\". It\'s obviously YOU who doesn\'t know much about sports if you harp on the SAME THING in ALMOST EVERY POST. *Hands you a tissue for the Saints not kissing your butt for what you want* And obviously, you haven\'t been much of a Saints fan if you think they\'d change their approach any of what they\'ve done over the years. As long as Tom Benson is the owner, things will remain the same. So to put it completely on Haslett, Loomis, or the rest of the coaching staff or front office is totally asanine and a bit naive if you ask me. They only have so much control of the situation when most of them are puppets in Benson\'s show. If I\'m wrong on that statement, then I\'ll never make another post in this community again. If you feel offended by my statements, then maybe you should think about what you say directed towards others before you take offense.

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Thank you Gator - this off-season has been crap. I cannot believe that people on this board can be happy with it. The Saints have not added a SINGLE experienced STARTER to their 26th ranked defense. Let me ask you all a question - what part of our team LOST games for us last year?

Answer: the defense. It doesn\'t matter how good your offense is if your defense is worse. Defense wins championships and ours sucks. Am I negative about where the Saints are? Yeah I am... and for good reason. The Saints have been unable to get to the playoffs the last two years. The choke down the stretch despite having as much or more talent than any other Saints team I\'ve ever seen.

I applaud Loomis, the Muellers, and Haslett\'s abilty to grade young talent. Our drafts have been better in the last three years than any I can remember. But they almost ALWAYS do the wrong thing in free agency.

I was very optimistic after the season despite yet another collapse. Go back and look. I talked about how much money the Saints had available to use to bring in new players. I talked about their great draft position and all that could be. I\'ve sat by and watch the Saints make no positive moves. It has nothing to do with what I think is best. If they had added a TE or a backup runningback, or even another receiver I would at least be happy to see them active. But instead they\'ve sat on their hands.

Seriously D_it_up, how have the Saints gotten better? Give me a list of reasons why you think this team will win more games and get to the playoffs next year, let alone contend for a Super Bowl. I\'ve given you a ton of reasons why I don\'t think they will, but you haven\'t name a single reason why they will get better. So tell me, why will the Saints be better next year?

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PS - D_it_up, this is what you said about free agency after the season ended:

\"The smart thing to do would be to give Sammy a good contract and dump some other dead weight...Clemons, Hand, Bellamy, Whitehead, Irvin, etc...There are more than capable guys to play on the defense and with smart draft picks and a couple big defensive free agent signings, the Saints can be a perfectly balanced team. Oh, yeah. FIRE THAT WASTE OF SPACE, RICK VENTURI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!\"

So have we fired Venturi or hired and \"big defensive free agents\"? Nope, we\'ve done none of the things that YOU said this team needed to do to get better... oh yeah, we\'re Super Bowl bound baby.

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:D Now that\'s the spirit, whodat! I do agree that we apparently haven\'t done enough with FA\'\'s so far. I say apparently b/c we don\'t know what\'s completely involved with these decisions. It seems that we have the moulah to put some one special on the secondary.
I also agree that Haslett-us-down is walking a thin line this year. I, too, hate to see such a talented team go to waste. I put my faith into every head coach that the Saints pick up until they let me down. Who needs a girl to break your heart when you\'re a Saints fan?
We\'ll see what this \"shake-up\" in coaches does for us.
Venturi\'s also on a tight rope this year.
Is there any news on Sammy Knight yet?

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yea gator, lets get some slander goin in this mofo, that what im talkin bout willis......

actually whodat, i dont think that our D sucks all that bad, i think we just had some problems at certian positions ie DT MLB, i believe if we had gotten more production out of these 2 positions our D would have been considerably better, and if u notice both of these positons protect the MIDDLE of the field, which is where most of the action goes down, i think we had a solid secondary we just didnt get the pressure on the qb that we would have liked and that leads to coverage breakdowns, if we can upgrade our DT position and get some more speed at MLB, i think our D will improve vastly over last year....if venturi figures out how to coach again.... :casstet:

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FINALLY - an educated response. Thank you Pak, I have missed you greatly.

I agree that our secondary wasn\'t bad. In fact, if you remember, earlier in the off-season when everyone was screaming about them, I was the one that said that our secondary was the best Saints secondary I\'ve ever seen. However, I was vastly in the minority then, and if you believe what the Saints are saying, then the secondary is our biggest problem. Further - Sammy Knight, the best player we had back there, is now gone, and that affects the secondary greatly.

Again, I agree that our problems are in the middle and up front. However, I don\'t think we\'re as well off as you seem to. A couple of good DTs will make a huge difference. While MLB is a priority, I\'m not particularly enamored by ANY of our linebackers. That\'s a group that can be improved at every position.

Finally, again I agree that this defense isn\'t that far away. There were only THREE positions I wanted to see filled in free agency. MLB, corner, and safety. I think we can find a DT good enough to make an impact through the draft. I\'ve said all of this before, as you know, but for some reason people ignore it or forget it. In any case, my concern is that the players that we have picked up at those positions don\'t add very much if any talent. They aren\'t the kind of guys who can impact a game positively. I believe that we needed big time players in these positions - b/c let\'s face it Allen, Hodge, Carter, Thomas, and Mel Mitchell are all basically questionable or unproven. We need some stability these positions to help our young guys - and I wanted that by way of guys like Spikes, Woodson, and Jones that would also help our team.

Unfortunately, they haven\'t pulled in any of those types of players on the defensive side of the ball. And until they do, I cannot be optimist about the up-coming season. Our defense\'s ability to improve this year is the key to our success, and right now, I just haven\'t seen much improvement in terms of our talent pool. For some reason that makes the other guys on this board nuts. It seems pretty rational and realistic to me - but then, it\'s my opinion so it figures. ;)

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in response to your response, let me just hit on one thing..... im not overly thrilled about our linebackers either, but i would like to talk about the players that we do have...
all the linebackers that i beleive we have are
james allen
sedrick hodge
orlando ruff
darrin smith
roger knight?
brian cox?

am i missing anyone?
man, we need some linebackers

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Hey Gator, I\'m not going to come after you. I know that your responses are always thought out... well almost always. ;)

That\'s the only good explanation for what they could possibly be thinking. Let me say that, in my opinion, it won\'t work in New Orleans. At least that would mean that they have some purpose and/or plan, but I\'m just not very confident that\'s true. What amazes me is that Haslett played linebacker, if I\'m not mistaken. How can he possibly be looking at this linebacking corp and associate a word like good with it? B/c I don\'t think the words \'good\' and \'linebackers\' belong in the same sentence unless the word \'Saints\' is also not included... or maybe \'the Saints linebackers are good at getting beat.\'

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All of us who\'ve disagreed with whodat are imbiciles. We\'re uneducated. Let\'s disect his angry tyraids until we become educated enough to post any further notes on this site. Tell me what I believe in, whodat. Start from the beggining and give me every last detail. I CAN\'T STAND BEING UNEDUCATED! Do I like Joe Horn or not? How \'bout Brooks? Should I think of him as a young talent or a terrible quaterback? Wait, I know. He sucks. They ALL suck.
The Saints defense is crap, but not really? Kinda?
Is there a whodatology course that I can take to become educated? Whodat 101?

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lmao, thats what im talkin bout iceshack, lets get rowdy up in this mutha Fka, but then....i have to agree wit whodat on dis one, i dont see any \"superstars\" at linebacker on our club

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There aren\'t any superstars at linebacker. There aren\'t any superstars on this whole defense. That\'s not my point. You know the saying, \"opinions are like *******s, everyone\'s got one.\" This board is for opinions. And the only thing that we all agree on is that Loomis and Haslett have much different opinions than us.

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Exactly right iceshack, I do disagree with what Loomis and Haslett have been doing - and I see that translating into this team producing less than it should. You, for some odd reason, believe that even though Loomis and Haslett are doing what you think is the wrong thing, that they\'ll some how be good, even better than last year.

I\'ll ask you the same question that I asked D_it_up, which he is still yet to answer. Why will the Saints be better next year? Please give me the list of all of the great things that this team has done since it\'s second collapse in as many years to make sure it doesn\'t happen a third year.

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I just had to add my 2 cents to this whole deal. I concur that everyone is entitled to an opinion and has a right to be heard, but I frankly find it difficult to read and justify defending OUR team.
I believe we had assembled a talented defense last year on paper and on previous performance. Every year we enter is an unknown. Did the Pats go into 2001-2002 believing they had a legitamate shot at a Super Bowl...of course they did, if you don\'t believe in your players then don\'t play or coach the game!!! Did the general population give them the same chance to be there? No way and anyone who says they picked the Pats to win that year would have a hard time keeping a straight face saying it.
Last year the Saints had two potential pro-bowl DT\'s that they estimated would stop the bleeding from the prior year against the run. Did Hand and Jackson play up to potential or prior performance level? No! Darren Howard played satisfactory at worst, I think he played a solid season. Charles Grant exceeded my expectations for a first year player and I\'m sure the coaching staff as well. Willie Whitehead did not pan out as a full-time starter as effectively he played a spot role the prior year. At LB, moving Clemons to MBL was a huge mistake, Darrin Smith finally lost that step everyone thought he would two years ago. They probably hoped he had another year in him as a starter to groom Allen. Sedrick Hodge played up to satisfaction. He shined at times and struggled at times. That is to be expected. In the secondary I feel Sammy Knight is taking a lot of blame for his play because he was forced to play away from his strengths to offset the problems created by our lack of push up the middle and difficulty picking up TE\'s and RB\'s by Smith and Clemons. Knight was forced into a more man coverage role or playing MLB against the run, his strength is ball hawking and reading a QB as a zone safety. Bellamy played like Jay Bellamy. I never thought he was quick or a good tackler. He is a head down hitter that doesn\'t tackle and he gets beat by recievers with good fakes pure speed. Dale Carter played more than well considering his preperation and late start. Fred Thomas in my mind had a great year and is a fantastic nickle corner. His physical limitations cannot be blamed against the big WR we face. I liked our depth in the secondary and thought Craver, Irvin and Fakhir Brown all contributed nicely. Hawthorne was a failed project and should free up a roster spot in my opinion.
All together on paper I think it looked well above average to begin the season, but ultimately I agree with those that assess the situation that it was a poor defensive game plan that misused our players strengths and a total lack of mentoring and motivating the defense. When they got behind the 8-ball early they needed to be led out and have their confidence restored and neither Venturi nor Haslett were able to do that. I have been pleased with Haslett as a whole coach and dipleased with his desire to involve himself more in the defense. I truly felt he should have stepped in a tried to right that part of the team when he clearly saw it wasn\'t being done....similar to Fassell taking Sean Payton\'s O-Coordinator role in N.Y. when the job wasn\'t getting done.
Again, I\'m not ecstatic about the offseason moves so far but I do honestly see them as marginal improvement. The problem is, we need drastic improvement and I agree we have missed the boat on a couple of impact players.

Everyone who made post in this thread has some valid points. I like when posts are constructive or can open a new thought pattern to see the benefit in a move, not just writing it off as absurd. It\'s like criticizing a prototype car before you start the motor or drive it. Lets give it a chance to run and hope they add a few more gadgets before release.

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i see all, i know all

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Lumm0x - that\'s all I\'m asking for. Your post was obviously well thought out, articulate, and dealt with the issues rather than taking pot shots at those who voiced their opinions. Excellent post.

I agree completely with your assessment of last year. I also agree that we never know until the season begins.

However, like Gator, I grow weary of looking towards the future. At some point you just have to expect results. That\'s what I\'m looking for. After last year\'s collapse I thought that Haslett would undoubtedly make some bold moves in the off-season simply because he was in the hot seat and had to show the owner, players, and fans that he was really trying to enact change in the organization (let alone the fact that he needed to make bold moves to improve this defense).

However, this off-season has gone by just like a Haslett post-game interview. No real answers, more new questions are raised simply by his responses, and most important, no definitive action or take on how to improve. I see the NFC South getting even stronger around us, and as you said, we have only marginally improved a defense that needs drastic improvement.

I remain optimistic, but realistic. I still think there are some moves that the Saints could make to improve their defense. However, they\'ve missed a lot of chances and most of the impact players are gone. I will continue to believe that if this defense doesn\'t improve, the Saints\' results (W/L) will not improve either in the upcoming season.

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O.K. I guess I\'m just not as well \"thought out\" as WhoDat would like for me to be. It\'s just a crying shame we can\'t all be like him. Ya know? It breaks my heart every day to know that I can\'t be a whining, crying little school girl like WhoDat. I don\'t have to ***** and moan every post. I have a term you all can use for WhoDat....I call it \"Turley\"ism. Yep, that\'s it. Go ahead and cry some more. I feed off of it.

As for being MUCH improved, no I don\'t think we are on defense. I\'m just not going to beat a dead horse every single post. WhoDat has become so redundant about ONE SUBJECT that I believe he just likes seeing his words on the screen. Is this thought out enough for you? It isn\'t? Oh, my, my! Whatever shall I do? I guess I should morph into the almighty WHODAT. If you were a TRUE Saints fan then you would realize that the Saints aren\'t doing anything different than they normally do. I\'m not screaming that the Saints are going to the Super Bowl or even the playoffs this year. I just don\'t see them as bad as you think they are. Maybe it\'s just me. Then again, the Saints aren\'t going to jump through their skin to please just you. Too bad if they didn\'t sign who you wanted....GET OVER IT! Why act like a little ***** about it every post? I can probably go through AT LEAST 10 posts and send them to you where you were basically *****ing about the same thing and have YET to realize that the Saints aren\'t going to do anything different. You want to say things aren\'t thought out? I think you should be asking yourself if YOU are thinking! I\'d be willing to lay money on it that you aren\'t. By the way, iceshack149. Let me know if you find out about that class. I want to take it so I can be just like my hero, WhoDat. Wait! Nevermind! I wouldn\'t waste my money, because I can learn to be a crybaby right here by reading his posts.

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I wish there was a blue in the face icon. Winning is why you own a Franchise. We have done nothing to help ourselves do that this season. Uh Uh ...no rebuilding crap. We need to win now. Impact players are needed. I want a great season as well as the next guy, but you must be realistic. The additions we have made are not heading us in that winning direction. We will ultimately make Horn angry by messing him around. Then the fans will say that Horn was the bad guy,not the admin. Sign your key existing players make them happy first,don\'t give them the distraction of worrying about being shown appreciation. Offseason has been so lame. I am sure we will be just thrilled over our great draft selections, that may or may not create an impact in a couple of years.
HMMMMM.........wishful thinking vs. realism. Thus far I see a whole bunch of wishful thinking and not much realistic thinking. Two years of choking down the stretch indicates we have issues. Our D was pathetic(MLB,DT) now Knight is gone,the return of Ambrose in Black and Gold is our answer??? The offense, particularly the line and Aaronplayed poorly. I realize Aaron was hurt. ADDRESS THE ISSUES!!!!!!! :mad:

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I will sign my name on a petition right now that says if we don\'t make the playoffs this year, Haslett and the whole coaching staff are done. I agree 4 years is enough time to get it going. He lucked out year one, but mostly thanks to Mueller and his shrewd eye for talent. Haslett has to prove he can be the man by himself.
He needs to hold his players and assistants accountable. I like the guy. He was a hard nosed player and is a hard worker. I like the fact he feels no need to air dirty laundry in public himself. He just needs to take a page from Bill Cowher nad Parcells and grab the reigns and beat the horse until it runs.

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Hey D_it_up:

You can take my class. It\'s in another thread. Go find it b/c you need it bad man. You\'re only proving me more right. Your inability to do anything other than insult me shows time and again that you cannot make a good argument about the Saints. Maybe I am repetitive, but at least I can speak intelligently about the topic at hand. You seem to be able to do little other than sling mud at me. Where\'s your insight into this off-season? Where\'s your analysis of what they\'re doing? Nowhere - b/c there isn\'t any. You think this team will be better next year? Well WHY? You haven\'t even acknowledged that question. WHY D_it_up? Why will they be better? WHY? WHY? WHY? Go ahead and keep insulting me if it makes you feel big. To the rest of us it just proves that you cannot talk Saints football. Hell, you can\'t answer a simple question.

As for Subguy - we agree again my friend. More good points form you.

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When you can impress me with intellect, then you can question mine. Until that day, keep spouting off your barbs. I can keep up with you anytime. Your insulting my intelligence only proves you more WRONG. It shows me your ignorance more and more. In the words of Forest Gump, (so you can understand WhoDat) \"That\'s all I have to say about that!\"

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Talk about the issue D_it_up. Talk about the Saints. Don\'t talk about me. I\'ve posted time and again with specific reason why I have come to my opinions. Veterans of the site like Pak, Gator, and subguy agree in full or in part with what I\'m saying. So do newer guys like lumm0x and blackandblue. Yet you cannot give one reason why you think the Saints will improve. Give me one D. Give us all one. Prove that you have a single reason to believe that I am wrong. You can\'t. You haven\'t done it yet. I posted a quote from you from only a couple of months ago. None of what you said then has come true. Now you can\'t give a single reason why the Saints will be better. Again, Why? Why? Why? Why will they be better? How many times do I have to ask... there\'s no limit. Want to know why? B/c you can\'t answer. Blind faith is your only answer. I can\'t even debate the issue with you b/c you give me nothing to talk about. Nothing. B/c you\'ve got nothing. Come back when you can actually talk about the Saints, b/c I\'d bet we\'re all tired of hearing your empty talk.

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LMAO...Once again you amaze me, WhoDat! You want an answer? I\'ll give you one. I won\'t sit here and say the Saints will be improved, because NO ONE will know that until they step on the field. You say I have \"blind faith\"? Well you\'ve got the faith part right. I do have faith because I am a TRUE FAN. Being a TRUE FAN, doesn\'t mean that I\'m going to degrade them for every move they make. It means I\'m going to stand behind them NO MATTER WHAT! Being a TRUE FAN, also tells me what I\'ve stated in other posts. THE SAINTS AREN\'T DOING ANYTHING DIFFERENT THAN THEY NORMALLY DO! If you are a TRUE FAN, then you would realize that the Saints have NEVER been key players in free agency. They have NEVER gone out for those big names that we\'d love to see in a Saints jersey. They have NEVER kept many of the players that should have been re-signed, all for the fact that they want \"too much money\". It\'s like I told gator in chat earlier. As long as Tom Benson is the owner of the Saints, they will NEVER be more than a 2nd tier team. Does that make me not a fan because I say that? NO! It just means I\'ve learned to accept that and I\'m STILL going to stand behind them 100%. As far as you telling me not to come back until I can talk about the Saints? LMAO. You are the least of my worries about being run off. I love a good debate. Just remember. YOU were the one who started with the insults. At the risk of sounding cliche\', if you can\'t take the heat, get outta the kitchen. As far as people being tired of my \"empty posts\" as you call them, I\'m sure there a few out there that are JUST AS TIRED of hearing you complain on a daily basis. I\'m sure most of us have been married or are married and put up with it enough from their spouses. If this doesn\'t answer your question or you don\'t feel that I\'ve supported my statements, then you are more thick-headed than I first thought. As far as my statement on the Saints on what I would have liked them to do, is just that....what I would LIKE them to do. Then again, I live in reality and KNOW that the Saints would have never gotten any of those big free agents. Now it\'s your turn to take that bus to Reality Avenue.

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Oh...one question for you WhoDat. When you told me to come back when I can talk about the Saints, was that only when I could TALK BAD about them? Seems like to me that\'s the only thing you can do. Just checking.

Now! Let\'s get down to business. As far as improving on defense, it hasn\'t been dramatic, but then again, it\'s still early. Sure all of the \"big name\" free agents are gone, but there could be some steals when other teams make their cuts. There could be some good players available then. Will the Saints get any of them? Possible. Who\'s to say? Depending on how the Saints manage their picks in the draft, they could rack up. They have the ability to do so with 5 picks in the first 3 rounds. As for the signings on defense the Saints have made to date, they haven\'t improved greatly, but they have improved. IMO Ruff will be a better MLB than Clemons due to the fact that Clemons is more of a pass rusher than a run stopper. With Ashley Ambrose signing, the Saints picked up a guy that will be a great addition to the nickel and dime packages. Now here\'s a hypothetical situation for you. Let\'s say Carter and Thomas are the starters at cornerback and one of them gets injured. Who would you rather have to replace them? Ken (thank goodness he\'s a Viking) Irvin, Michael Hawthorne, or Ashley Ambrose? I think the consensus would say Ambrose. Hopefully, Craver would get the go-ahead to start over Ambrose, but then again, we aren\'t the coaches and we don\'t make that decision. As far as the other positions that are big concerns on defense, such as safety and defensive tackle, those are positions that WILL BE ADDRESSED. We are alright at CB and DE, but I do agree that DT and safety must be looked at. Another IMO for ya, is that Mel Mitchell will do fine as a starter next year. No, he may not be Sammy Knight, but I think he\'ll fit in good with the defense. Losing Knight will be a bigger blow to the defense than the organization will realize. I still believe they should try to bring him back, and I still believe that he was the scapegoat on a defense that was more porous than a SOS pad. Jay Bellamy is definitely a back-up, so the Saints will definitely have to find someone to replace him. Now at defensive tackle. If the Saints were to keep Hand and he play like the man he was his first season in New Orleans and keep his weight down, then he\'ll be fine. I don\'t see it happening, but it\'s an idea. Grady Jackson has the ability to be one of the most solid DT\'s in football if he could keep his weight down as well. One man in my mind that deserves a chance to show what he\'s got at DT is Kenny Smith. He played well in limited time last season, but he\'s just a little too over-anxious. If he could work on that, then he\'d be a good fill-in or possible starter. Someone will need to be brought in, however, to start at that position.


Are the Saints better on defense? Mildly. At least on paper. There are still things that need to be addressed to say that they have improved drastically. Will these things happen? Time will only tell. No matter what, I\'m still a fan and will be til the bitter end.

WhoDat? Is this more of what you were looking for? I sure hope I could satisfy you since nothing else seems like it can. If it doesn\'t, then you\'ve got serious issues, because I don\'t make it a habit of pleasing others.

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Good post, though I disagree with what you said about Ruff being better than Clemons. The guy has not played much in his NFL tenure, and I think that it\'s hard to compare when I have no evidence to compare with. You are right on with the secondary, though. Mitchell will be a future star on this team, just a matter of time. Knight\'s problem is that the style of game he plays, he has to rely too heavily on the front four to provide adequate pass rush, otherwise, a good quarterback and reciever will burn him down all day. Let\'s just hope whoever fills the position will be able to hit at least half as hard as he did. ;)

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even tho i do not always agree with whodats opinion, i have to agree with him on the issue of D it up not answering his ?.... but he finally did.... took u long enough D.. but he got the job done

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You see D_it_up - you should be a little less quick to jump than you have been. You didn\'t say much of anything different than I did. Go back and read my posts. I said that the Saints have not done enough in free agency. I said if the season started today they wouldn\'t be better. I said that if they don\'t add more talent they won\'t be better. But I also said that they have a lot of draft picks and money and the ability to get better.

You\'re right, since Haslett got here they haven\'t been big free agent movers (I\'m not going to go so far as to say they NEVER have been, but...). At the same time, they\'ve never been in this position, that I can remember. I have never known a Saints team to have this much young talent. I have never known them to be in such a great cap and draft position year after year. Now I want to see results. You\'re apparently content to watch this team remain a \"second-tier\" team. I\'m not. Gandy was a good move, but if that money had gone to Spikes I would have been happier. This team was four players on defense from being a serious Super Bowl contender. Right now they remain four players away. If you\'re happy to be \"second-tier\" and hope for a miracle, fine. I\'m not. I want to see results.

And one other thing. You guys can get down on Benson all ou want. Know this. There is no other person in New Orleans even remotely close to having the kind of money needed to buy the New Orleans Saints. Since oil left in the 70\'s and 80\'s, New Orleans has been a small market. Last I saw it was ranked in the 60s for national television markets. If Benson sells the team, kiss New Orleans can kiss the Saints goodbye. If his kids decide to move the team to San Antonio where they live, or a major market like LA, or an up-and-coming like Portland, etc. etc. etc. then kiss them goodbye.

In any case, you\'re right D_it_up. The Saints aren\'t likely to make big moves in free agency. As a result they\'re not likely to be a contender - you seem OK with that. I\'m not.

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By the way - didn\'t you just say that we\'re a \"second-tier\" team likely to stay a \"second-tier\" team. I said that if they didn\'t get some free agents they\'ll just end up being the consumate 9-7 one game out of the playoffs team that is little more than a feeder team to the real contenders in the league. How is what we said any different? Just wondering why I\'m Johnny Negative and you\'re the Saints Number One Fan... sounds like you\'re echoing everything I said.

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By the way - didn\'t you just say that we\'re a \"second-tier\" team likely to stay a \"second-tier\" team. I said that if they didn\'t get some free agents they\'ll just end up being the consumate 9-7 one game out of the playoffs team that is little more than a feeder team to the real contenders in the league. How is what we said any different? Just wondering why I\'m Johnny Negative and you\'re the Saints Number One Fan... sounds like you\'re echoing everything I said.

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WhoDat, I believe we\'ve finally reached an even plain. I haven\'t boasted that the Saints were going to be spectacular on defense next year, but I DO think they\'re finally going to give some playing time to players that MAY excel. None of which will be proven until they step on the field. Players like Sedrick Hodge, James Allen, Orlando Ruff, and Roger Knight can\'t prove what they can do until they get playing time. Who knows? Maybe the coaching staff DOES see these guys as \"diamonds in the rough\" and can turn out to be household names such as the Spikes, Thomas\', or maybe even Urlachers\' of the NFL. Until they get the PT, we\'ll never know how good or bad they are going to be. We can\'t truly judge how bad they are going to be until we see them play. Sure there will be mistakes that they make, because they are all still young and new to the NFL. Every missed tackle, blown coverage, or missed assignment will be a learning experience for them. I would\'ve loved seeing Spikes in a Saints jersey, but I knew the possibility was slim-to-none. Even Spikes, I\'m sure, misses a tackle or gets burned on occasion. That\'s what makes the NFL exciting. If everyone did what they were supposed to do on defense, then there would be no scoring at all. Some are just better at their position that others. Give these new guys a chance and let them prove or unprove what they can do. Though I still think Venturi isn\'t capable of coaching a Pee Wee team. I\'ll call for his head every day of the year until he\'s gone.

As for being \"satisfied\" with the Saints being a second-tier team, I can honestly say that I\'m not. Year after year, game after game, the Saints let me down in some shape or form, but I don\'t constantly harp on it. The thing is that I\'ve learned to accept it. If you wonder why I can accept it is, because I\'m a Chicago Cubs fan, too. Talk about futility year after year. I\'ve been a passenger on the Goodship \"Maybe Next Year\" since I was a kid. I\'m going to honestly say that the best football fans and baseball fans are of the New Orleans Saints and the Chicago Cubs, because we perenially have nothing to cheer about at the end of the season, yet we still remain faithful. I never once said that I disagreed with you, but what I was implying is the negativity behind your statements. If I\'ve offended you, I apologize. I\'m man enough to do that. The most insulting thing a person can do is not to question a teams loyalty, but to question a man\'s intelligence. That\'s why I came back at you like I did. Nonetheless, what\'s done is done. We can\'t change what was said, but we can move on like men and call it even.

I know this whole debate has nothing to do with the Cubs, but I thought it fitting to show why I can accept the Saints franchise as being \"perrenial losers\".

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Very big of you D_it_up - we\'ll call it even. I know I was being negative, and I can understand it getting people down. I live in Chicago, so I actually watch the Cubs blow it year after year man. I know what you mean.

The thing that really gets to me about this particular Saints team though is the talent. Normally, my expectations for the Saints are mild. However, sometime during the first few weeks of last season I let myself believe that we really had a chance. While I was slapped in the face for it by yet another collapse, I tried to remain positive about the prospects for this off-season. Normally, I strive for realism. I thought going into the off-season that, even from a pessimistic point of view, the Saints would sign a couple of key free agents on defense and improve their defense enough to punch their playoff ticket.

I know that there is plenty of time left in free agency - I\'m just really disappointed in what they\'ve done so far. You\'re right. Guys like Ruff, Allen, Hodge, Mitchell, Ambrose, etc. could all prove to be better than I expect. However, I\'m starting to realize that our personnel guys aren\'t nearly as astute when it comes to talent evaluation as I thought.

Really, everyone points to Horn and Brooks as the examples of how they \"discover\" great talent (I exclude Deuce b/c everyone knew he was good - it may have been surprising for us a take a shot at him, but...) Otherwise, who have they brought in that really panned out? Who have they let go that really flopped? Williams, Glover, and Roaf are all Pro Bowlers. Johnson got hurt, so you don\'t know. Knight is a good player. Otherwise, they were wrong about Hand. They were wrong about Clemons... Connell, Sloan, Turley\'s ability to play left tackle....

I know that things could get better. I just can\'t bring myself to believe it again after being let down so hard this past season and then again so far in the off-season. I mean - are they a value team, or are they just cheap? I know guys like Spikes and trading for Woodson are very unlikely. But I put Chris Claiborne\'s name up here months ago. He\'s cost us about half a million dollars more a year than Ruff. That\'s not a better value?

In any case, I\'m just down on this team right now. I realize that I pulled you into a situation that you didn\'t necessarily deserve to be brought into. Again, I apologize. It\'s just rough when you get jumped on in every thread you post b/c you\'re not Mr. Positive. I\'m a Saints fan, man. How positive can I really be? :)

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Isn\'t this a Kodak moment for you two? You guys make me proud to be a Saints fan.

[Edited on 26/3/2003 by subguy]

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Why haven\'t the saints participated more in FA, because in the organizations mind and mine there wasn\'t much out there. The saints hate 3 things Fat, Slow, and Bad Mouthing. Spikes was never a real option for us because this entire organiztion will not tolerate players who berate there team. Its hard to blame Spikes being in Cinci, but negative talk gets you a walk. Second, Claibone is a fat. How many players on the team now have trouble keeping there weight down with all the food here. Claiborne would be Hand and Grady\'s size by mid season. We took a chance with Ruff, he wants a shot we want someone hungry to make a name for themselves, not hungry for there next meal. Besides, he\'s cheap. Truely quality MLB\'s will almost never make it to free agency because they have truly become a rarity in the league. There was only one coner worth anything in FA and we signed him. Anybody who even thinks that we should have gone after Bly or even tried to compete with the insane offer he got just needs to give it up. The Safetey\'s out there are slow as hell, if we sign one we haven\'t done a thing except overpay( Jones might be an exception to that. Our defense sucked but there is little to help that. Remember that this team was only supposed to win around 6 games in the preseason. We were able to sucker some good teams at the beinning of the season, and the be to cocky with some suck ass teams late. Duece\'s injury, AB constantly peaking over his left sholder so he wasn\'t killed because of turnstyle turly sad performance, and wideout dropping balls in their hand lost us just as many games last year as our D

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You\'re right - our offense, which average 30 points a game for almost the entire season definitely cost us as many or more games as our defense... which team are we talking about again?