Explain it to me...

WhoDat · 08-26-2003, 09:44 PM

I can't keep up with all these threads anymore, so here's what I'm asking:

All you optimists - I don't care about special teams or the offense. I just want to try to understand why you believe that the defense will improve this season. Go ahead, throw out team speed. Talk about Venturi's incredible scheme... er... uh...

lay it out there for me. B/c right now I hear analysts, "experts", and even the Vegas bookies talking about how the defense didn't get any better. I've witnessed with my own eyes their inability to stop the pass, and I've watched over the last three seasons as basically EVERY SINGLE move the Saints made on defense blow up in our face - Glover, Johnson, Hand, Jackson, moving Clemons to MLB, Bellamy, Hodge... etc. So where exactly is this optimism coming from other than thin air? Really? Where?

BillyCarpenter1 · 08-26-2003, 09:52 PM

I\'m only speaking for me. I say let\'s give them a chance. At least let them play one real game. I am stating I don\'t know how they are going to do. You, on the other hand, have already passed judgement based off of \"whatever\" and trying to pass them off as facts. You have no facts. Just predictions.

JOESAM2002 · 08-26-2003, 10:24 PM

Here\'s my take on why I think they\'ll be better than last year. Because after watching last years games I can\'t honestly see how they could possibley be worse. If for no other reason once a back gets past our line at least we MIGHT have to speed to catch up with them and stop them. I know this sounds trite but think about it, it\'s True. I hate looking at the defense this way but how else can you look at it. I think you have to give them a shot, then pull out their finger nails.

ssmitty · 08-26-2003, 10:27 PM

they are who they are who dat..........i am going with gut on this one as i\'ve said in the past......even if they blew everyone away in pre season, i\'d still have my doubts....i am going with luck to provide the total package.......and i believe they have the best chance they have ever had.........ever..............disagree with that........smitty

SaintNik · 08-27-2003, 01:49 AM

WARNING! The following post contains the SoGood virus. If contracted you may spread it.

[Edited on 27/8/2003 by SaintNik]

SaintNik · 08-27-2003, 01:56 AM

Speed - Yeah, I know you want to hear something other than, but I figured I would get this out of the way first. Pretty simple! Team speed allows for closing in on opponent sooner. Chasing down ball from weakside, backside, or strongside, with multiple players converging before play otherwise develops to its fullest potential. See other benefits below.

Experience - Players such as Hodge and Grant saw starting action last year for first time, Hodge as 2nd year player and Grant as a rookie. Darren Smith is a student of the game. He played solid at MLB during 2000 playoff campaign. Will be the defensive QB on field while alternating with Ruff. Corners Ambrose, Carter, and Thomas have seen it all before. 2nd year DBs Craver and Mitchell have that 1st year behind them as well. Jones is a seasoned safety. Howard can dominate at times. Grady Jackson is still overweight but has played quick and can dominate his opponent also. Kenny Smith and Willie Whitehead have been in the system several years and will rotate and play their roles as well. Sullivan will get his chance to make plays, but if he can\'t, he will do his share of watching Ford and others get the job done.

Depth - Some of what was said above applies here. Let\'s break it down. We are deeper than ever a DL as evidenced by ability to trade Chase. Bellamy, a starter the past few seasons, has seen his role changed to special teams player, player/coach, and relief duty. DBs that saw starting playing time last year due to injury, such as Brown, Craver, and Hawthorne, will benefit by that experience in spot duty and special packages. Carter and Thomas can stick with their man when called upon to play man as good as anybody. Ambrose will fight for starting or rotating playing time. The LBs are battling for starting spots. Depth will be proven when you see another trade or our final cut players being signed by other teams.

Coaching/Schemes - Venturi has been bashed by the masses so far. What we have seen has been vanilla base defense, straight up pass rushing, soft zone defensive coverages. When the real bullets begin to fly you will see defensive linemen stunting and looping, dog blitzing by all LBs from different spots, zone blitzing, safety and corner blitzes, man to man coverage at times when blitzing, and watch how much tighter the coverage gets by the corners as the season progresses. Speed and athleticism by the players will allow for this.

Improvement - If only the defense improves to 15th - 20th in the league and offense and special teams play at same level as last year we will be a much better team with a few extra wins. With Dallas and Jacksonville on schedule at year end, don\'t expect Decenber slide to continue.

tweeky · 08-27-2003, 07:18 AM

I hear analysts, \"experts\", and even the Vegas bookies talking about how the defense didn\'t get any better. I\'ve witnessed with my own eyes their inability to stop the pass, and I\'ve watched over the last three seasons as basically EVERY SINGLE move the Saints made on defense blow up in our face - Glover, Johnson, Hand, Jackson, moving Clemons to MLB, Bellamy, Hodge... etc. So where exactly is this optimism coming from other than thin air? Really? Where?

I also hear analysts and most say we will be better when they gel.
You must only want to hear the negative analysts.

EVERY MOVE?
Glover: Wanted too much money, but probably your best example
Johnson: Is he in jail yet? I hear analysts, \"experts\" say he was the real problem in the locker room
Hand: Had a good season followed by a bad season. After a bad season we let him go. How exactly is that blowing up in our face?
Clemmons: Terrible inside, but he was no Pat Swilling on the outside either.
Bellamy: He was brought in at barely the league minimum just to patch some holes at depth. He ended up starting, how is that blowing up in our face?
Hodge: Disappointment last year, if he was cut this week 30 teams would try to claim him.

Darren Howard, Charles Grant, Fred Thomas (near league minimum), Johnathan Sullivan, Cie Grant... Hardly moves that have blown up in our face.

I\'ll make it plain and simple,
Last year we were slow and weak.

This year we have better players at every position we addressed.

Only a true Saint pessimist could look at 3 preseason games and say all the moves we made over the last 3 years have blown up in our face. Especially after Ditka, many of the analysts \"experts\" said we basically had less talent than any team in the league, and some predicted worst record in the league, DFL at #31.

saintz08 · 08-27-2003, 11:05 AM

Some of it has to do with commments like these :

From the Times Picayune:

WORTH REPEATING: \"He\'s the best defensive-minded coach I\'ve ever been around. He knows the game. He\'s a good coach and we\'ll be fine on defense.\" -- Haslett on recent fan and media criticism of the Saints\' defense under defensive coordinator Rick Venturi.

For your review , here are Venturi\'s qualifications :

1968-1972 - Assistant Coach at Northwestern

Under head coach Alex Asage, the team goes 19-33 during Venturi\'s employment.

1968: 1-9
1969: 3-7
1970: 6-4
1971: 7-4
1972: 2-9

1973-76 - Assistant Coach at Purdue

Alex Asage must like Rick very much, because he brought him along for another magical mystery tour that yielded an 18-25-1 result.

1973: 5-6
1974: 4-6-1
1975: 4-7
1976: 5-6

1977 - Assistant Coach at Illinois

The team goes 3-8.

1978-1980 - Head Coach at Northwestern

Rick returns to his alma mater and amounts a superlative 1-31-1 record as a thank you.

1982-1993 - Assistant and Interim Head Coach with the Colts

The Colts go 50-93 during Rick\'s tenure...

1982: 0-8-1 (Total Yardage Defensive ranking: 24th)
1983: 7-9 (23rd)
1984: 4-12 (22nd)
1985: 5-11 (18th)
1986: 3-13 (25th)
1987: 9-6 (6th during the strike season)
1988: 9-7 (15th)
1989: 8-8 (25th)
1990: 7-9 (26th)
1991: 1-15 (1-10 as head coach) (21st)
1992: 9-7 (24th)
1993: 4-12 (27th)

1994-1995 - Assistant Coach with the Browns

1994: 11-5 (8th)
1995: 5-11 (24th)

1996-2002 - Assistant with Saints

1996: 3-13 (1-7 as head coach) (13th overall but 27th against the run)
1997: 6-10 (6th)
1998: 6-10 (16th)
1999: 3-13 (20th)
2000: 10-6 (11th)
2001: 7-9 (19th)
2002: 9-7 (28th)

BillyCarpenter1 · 08-27-2003, 11:11 AM

What has Venturi\'s record been the last three years with the Saint?

BillyCarpenter1 · 08-27-2003, 11:27 AM

http://nusports.ocsn.com/sports/m-fo...bl-yrbyyr.html

Looks like Dennis Green couldn\'t get it done at NorthWesten either and he was a pretty good coach. All your stats just prove that Venturi has been with some terrible programs.

NorthWestern University:

Year by Year Records

1973 4 7 0 John Pont

1974 3 8 0 John Pont

1975 3 8 0 John Pont

1976 1 10 0 John Pont

1977 1 10 0 John Pont

1978 0 10 1 Rick Venturi

1979 1 10 0 Rick Venturi

1980 0 11 0 Rick Venturi

1981 0 11 0 Dennis Green

1982 3 8 0 Dennis Green

1983 2 9 0 Dennis Green

1984 2 9 0 Dennis Green

1985 3 8 0 Dennis Green

1986 4 7 0 Francis Peay

1987 2 8 1 Francis Peay

1988 2 8 1 Francis Peay

1989 0 11 0 Francis Peay

1990 2 9 0 Francis Peay

1991 3 8 0 Francis Peay

1992 3 8 0 Gary Barnett

1993 2 9 0 Gary Barnett

1994 3 7 1 Gary Barnett

1995* 10 2 0 Gary Barnett

1996* 9 3 0 Gary Barnett

1997 5 7 0 Gary Barnett

1998 3 9 0 Gary Barnett

[Edited on 27/8/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

08-26-2003, 09:44 PM	#1
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Explain it to me... I can't keep up with all these threads anymore, so here's what I'm asking: All you optimists - I don't care about special teams or the offense. I just want to try to understand why you believe that the defense will improve this season. Go ahead, throw out team speed. Talk about Venturi's incredible scheme... er... uh... lay it out there for me. B/c right now I hear analysts, "experts", and even the Vegas bookies talking about how the defense didn't get any better. I've witnessed with my own eyes their inability to stop the pass, and I've watched over the last three seasons as basically EVERY SINGLE move the Saints made on defense blow up in our face - Glover, Johnson, Hand, Jackson, moving Clemons to MLB, Bellamy, Hodge... etc. So where exactly is this optimism coming from other than thin air? Really? Where?
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631

08-26-2003, 09:52 PM	#2
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Explain it to me... I\'m only speaking for me. I say let\'s give them a chance. At least let them play one real game. I am stating I don\'t know how they are going to do. You, on the other hand, have already passed judgement based off of \"whatever\" and trying to pass them off as facts. You have no facts. Just predictions.
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

08-26-2003, 10:24 PM	#3
JOESAM2002 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: CRYSTAL BEACH TEXAS Posts: 4,100	Explain it to me... Here\'s my take on why I think they\'ll be better than last year. Because after watching last years games I can\'t honestly see how they could possibley be worse. If for no other reason once a back gets past our line at least we MIGHT have to speed to catch up with them and stop them. I know this sounds trite but think about it, it\'s True. I hate looking at the defense this way but how else can you look at it. I think you have to give them a shot, then pull out their finger nails.
	Sometimes it's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought an idiot, than to open it and remove all doubt!!!!! "Every time you think, you weaken the nation!" Moe Howard...The Three Stooges.

08-26-2003, 10:27 PM	#4
ssmitty 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,879	Explain it to me... they are who they are who dat..........i am going with gut on this one as i\'ve said in the past......even if they blew everyone away in pre season, i\'d still have my doubts....i am going with luck to provide the total package.......and i believe they have the best chance they have ever had.........ever..............disagree with that........smitty
ssmitty 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,879

08-27-2003, 01:49 AM	#5
SaintNik 100th Post Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 312	Explain it to me... WARNING! The following post contains the SoGood virus. If contracted you may spread it. [Edited on 27/8/2003 by SaintNik]
SaintNik 100th Post Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 312

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08-27-2003, 01:56 AM	#6
SaintNik 100th Post Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 312	Explain it to me... Speed - Yeah, I know you want to hear something other than, but I figured I would get this out of the way first. Pretty simple! Team speed allows for closing in on opponent sooner. Chasing down ball from weakside, backside, or strongside, with multiple players converging before play otherwise develops to its fullest potential. See other benefits below. Experience - Players such as Hodge and Grant saw starting action last year for first time, Hodge as 2nd year player and Grant as a rookie. Darren Smith is a student of the game. He played solid at MLB during 2000 playoff campaign. Will be the defensive QB on field while alternating with Ruff. Corners Ambrose, Carter, and Thomas have seen it all before. 2nd year DBs Craver and Mitchell have that 1st year behind them as well. Jones is a seasoned safety. Howard can dominate at times. Grady Jackson is still overweight but has played quick and can dominate his opponent also. Kenny Smith and Willie Whitehead have been in the system several years and will rotate and play their roles as well. Sullivan will get his chance to make plays, but if he can\'t, he will do his share of watching Ford and others get the job done. Depth - Some of what was said above applies here. Let\'s break it down. We are deeper than ever a DL as evidenced by ability to trade Chase. Bellamy, a starter the past few seasons, has seen his role changed to special teams player, player/coach, and relief duty. DBs that saw starting playing time last year due to injury, such as Brown, Craver, and Hawthorne, will benefit by that experience in spot duty and special packages. Carter and Thomas can stick with their man when called upon to play man as good as anybody. Ambrose will fight for starting or rotating playing time. The LBs are battling for starting spots. Depth will be proven when you see another trade or our final cut players being signed by other teams. Coaching/Schemes - Venturi has been bashed by the masses so far. What we have seen has been vanilla base defense, straight up pass rushing, soft zone defensive coverages. When the real bullets begin to fly you will see defensive linemen stunting and looping, dog blitzing by all LBs from different spots, zone blitzing, safety and corner blitzes, man to man coverage at times when blitzing, and watch how much tighter the coverage gets by the corners as the season progresses. Speed and athleticism by the players will allow for this. Improvement - If only the defense improves to 15th - 20th in the league and offense and special teams play at same level as last year we will be a much better team with a few extra wins. With Dallas and Jacksonville on schedule at year end, don\'t expect Decenber slide to continue.
SaintNik 100th Post Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 312	Just Chillin Checking Out The B&G Forum While Waiting For My Ship To Come In http://img51.exs.cx/img51/4387/Santa_on_raft.jpg

08-27-2003, 07:18 AM	#7
tweeky 500th Post Join Date: May 2003 Location: South Alabama Posts: 779	Explain it to me... I hear analysts, \"experts\", and even the Vegas bookies talking about how the defense didn\'t get any better. I\'ve witnessed with my own eyes their inability to stop the pass, and I\'ve watched over the last three seasons as basically EVERY SINGLE move the Saints made on defense blow up in our face - Glover, Johnson, Hand, Jackson, moving Clemons to MLB, Bellamy, Hodge... etc. So where exactly is this optimism coming from other than thin air? Really? Where? I also hear analysts and most say we will be better when they gel. You must only want to hear the negative analysts. EVERY MOVE? Glover: Wanted too much money, but probably your best example Johnson: Is he in jail yet? I hear analysts, \"experts\" say he was the real problem in the locker room Hand: Had a good season followed by a bad season. After a bad season we let him go. How exactly is that blowing up in our face? Clemmons: Terrible inside, but he was no Pat Swilling on the outside either. Bellamy: He was brought in at barely the league minimum just to patch some holes at depth. He ended up starting, how is that blowing up in our face? Hodge: Disappointment last year, if he was cut this week 30 teams would try to claim him. Darren Howard, Charles Grant, Fred Thomas (near league minimum), Johnathan Sullivan, Cie Grant... Hardly moves that have blown up in our face. I\'ll make it plain and simple, Last year we were slow and weak. This year we have better players at every position we addressed. Only a true Saint pessimist could look at 3 preseason games and say all the moves we made over the last 3 years have blown up in our face. Especially after Ditka, many of the analysts \"experts\" said we basically had less talent than any team in the league, and some predicted worst record in the league, DFL at #31.
	Whether we agree or disagree; its all for Him.

08-27-2003, 11:05 AM	#8
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020	Explain it to me... Some of it has to do with commments like these : From the Times Picayune: WORTH REPEATING: \"He\'s the best defensive-minded coach I\'ve ever been around. He knows the game. He\'s a good coach and we\'ll be fine on defense.\" -- Haslett on recent fan and media criticism of the Saints\' defense under defensive coordinator Rick Venturi. For your review , here are Venturi\'s qualifications : 1968-1972 - Assistant Coach at Northwestern Under head coach Alex Asage, the team goes 19-33 during Venturi\'s employment. 1968: 1-9 1969: 3-7 1970: 6-4 1971: 7-4 1972: 2-9 1973-76 - Assistant Coach at Purdue Alex Asage must like Rick very much, because he brought him along for another magical mystery tour that yielded an 18-25-1 result. 1973: 5-6 1974: 4-6-1 1975: 4-7 1976: 5-6 1977 - Assistant Coach at Illinois The team goes 3-8. 1978-1980 - Head Coach at Northwestern Rick returns to his alma mater and amounts a superlative 1-31-1 record as a thank you. 1982-1993 - Assistant and Interim Head Coach with the Colts The Colts go 50-93 during Rick\'s tenure... 1982: 0-8-1 (Total Yardage Defensive ranking: 24th) 1983: 7-9 (23rd) 1984: 4-12 (22nd) 1985: 5-11 (18th) 1986: 3-13 (25th) 1987: 9-6 (6th during the strike season) 1988: 9-7 (15th) 1989: 8-8 (25th) 1990: 7-9 (26th) 1991: 1-15 (1-10 as head coach) (21st) 1992: 9-7 (24th) 1993: 4-12 (27th) 1994-1995 - Assistant Coach with the Browns 1994: 11-5 (8th) 1995: 5-11 (24th) 1996-2002 - Assistant with Saints 1996: 3-13 (1-7 as head coach) (13th overall but 27th against the run) 1997: 6-10 (6th) 1998: 6-10 (16th) 1999: 3-13 (20th) 2000: 10-6 (11th) 2001: 7-9 (19th) 2002: 9-7 (28th)
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020	\"Americans play to win at all times. I wouldn\'t give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed.\" - George S. Patton On another note, I\'ll take a bite of that crow 08. - Saintfan Brooks is a moron!! - Halo

08-27-2003, 11:11 AM	#9
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Explain it to me... What has Venturi\'s record been the last three years with the Saint?
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

08-27-2003, 11:27 AM	#10
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Explain it to me... http://nusports.ocsn.com/sports/m-fo...bl-yrbyyr.html Looks like Dennis Green couldn\'t get it done at NorthWesten either and he was a pretty good coach. All your stats just prove that Venturi has been with some terrible programs. NorthWestern University: Year by Year Records 1973 4 7 0 John Pont 1974 3 8 0 John Pont 1975 3 8 0 John Pont 1976 1 10 0 John Pont 1977 1 10 0 John Pont 1978 0 10 1 Rick Venturi 1979 1 10 0 Rick Venturi 1980 0 11 0 Rick Venturi 1981 0 11 0 Dennis Green 1982 3 8 0 Dennis Green 1983 2 9 0 Dennis Green 1984 2 9 0 Dennis Green 1985 3 8 0 Dennis Green 1986 4 7 0 Francis Peay 1987 2 8 1 Francis Peay 1988 2 8 1 Francis Peay 1989 0 11 0 Francis Peay 1990 2 9 0 Francis Peay 1991 3 8 0 Francis Peay 1992 3 8 0 Gary Barnett 1993 2 9 0 Gary Barnett 1994 3 7 1 Gary Barnett 1995* 10 2 0 Gary Barnett 1996* 9 3 0 Gary Barnett 1997 5 7 0 Gary Barnett 1998 3 9 0 Gary Barnett [Edited on 27/8/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209