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BillyCarpenter1 09-21-2003 02:54 PM

My thoughts on the game
 
The play calling is absolutely killing any chance of success the offense might have. McCarthy's insistance on playing a ball control offense is playing against the strength of this offense and allowing the opposing defense to crowd the line of scrimmage.

The defensive line, I thought played OK, but eventually got worn down from being on the field so long. The secondary was out played by the tall receivers and commited too many mistakes. I also credit McCarthy's play calling for putting the defense back out on the field.

On special teams, we weren't very special. That's about all I have to say about that.

Aaron Brooks played a hell of a game. What success the offense did have, Brooks was the man. Good game Aaron.

Donte is looking like a rookie this year and is killing the team with dropped passes and fumbles this year.

Ernie Conwell continues to impress me.

I hold Mike McCarthy most responsible for this loss.

saintz08 09-21-2003 03:14 PM

My thoughts on the game
 
Said it before and I will say it again .

My thought would be that defensive coordinators around the league will start to have a rule of thumb with Brooks , play up and force him to make the deep throw . Brooks can shred a cover 2 defense but has problems when they keep the under routes blanketed . Seattle blanketed the under routes and made receivers pay the piper , Tampa played the Saints in a zone package allowing the receivers to pick spots .

The way to beat the Saints offense is to spy Deuce , man coverage on the receivers and blanket the under routes . Brooks passing style is the reason the screen pass does not work in New Orleans , Brooks needs a passing lane to throw the dart , the screen pass is thrown with touch over the heads of the rushing defense .

Brooks is a quarterback that takes what the defense gives you .


Titans at times crammed 6 men on the defensive front line , Brooks should have checked off changed the play and burned them deep .

BillyCarpenter1 09-21-2003 03:21 PM

My thoughts on the game
 
saintz08 --

What ever your agenda is against Brooks is, you need to get over it, and step into the real world my man. Brooks by far played better than anyone on the field today. You sound like a .

You bring very liitle insight to Saints football to this board. Hopefully everyone will see

For the last time. Stop calling people names. Damn what do I have to do?

[Edited on 21/9/2003 by JOESAM2002]

blake6900 09-21-2003 03:25 PM

My thoughts on the game
 
I said this earlier but it bears repeating: a very good defensive line makes an average secondary look like all-pros. While everyone seems to long for the good old days of last year when the offense put up a lot of points, the fact is defense wins championships. Now that the Saints offense appears to be sadly impotent, that becomes even more clear. Venturi has been a disappointment as a defensive coordinator. As the Peter Principle suggests, you should promote people to their level of incompetence. Haslet has done that and more with Venturi. He was questionable as a linebacker coach but there\'s no question he\'s over his head running the entire defense. And it\'s not just about injuries. That\'s why teams have a bench. Injuries weren\'t the problem last year either so we must determine the lowest common denominator and that\'s Venturi.
When the Saints finally fire Haslett, he\'ll look back at his career here and ask himself, \"Why did I keep Venturi around? What was I thinking?\" And we\'ll all answer, \"You weren\'t thinking...just like you weren\'t thinking last year when you left Brooks in at the end of the season.\" And then Haslett will probably end up badmouthing the team like every other jerk that\'s left it, ala Turley and Hawthorne...
The fact is that while it\'s the players who have to tackle and not make mental mistakes, the coaches are the ones who must determine which players are capable of that and which ones are not. Clearly Haslett is a poor judge of quality players more times than not. He needs to go and Venturi with him.
Maybe Benson should promote McCarthy to what would hopefully not be his level of incompetence. McCarthy will probably be gone next year so the owner better do something. I know, how \'bout this? Make Venturi the offensive coordinator...he couldn\'t do much worse than what he\'s done on the other side of the ball.
The next time Saints players and fans complain about no respect around the league and on television (no Monday Night Football, etc.), they can look at this game and remember that when the defense needed to stop the other guys, it couldn\'t...again...as usual...What\'s new?!
As for Aaron Brooks, he didn\'t do anything to cost the team the game.

BillyCarpenter1 09-21-2003 03:31 PM

My thoughts on the game
 
Gator --

You think whatever you want to think. That\'s like saying why didn\'t Brooks just call his own plays. You guys need to give it a rest. Aaon deserves no criticizm for this game.

NONE !! 08 has no valid nothing !!

WhoDat 09-21-2003 03:41 PM

My thoughts on the game
 
I agree Billy, and I said in another post. Aaron did have a good game. He\'s playing as well as any other player on the team right now. This is coming from ME!!!

HOWEVER, 08 and Gator are both right as well. Brooks is not a touch passer. He did throw a great pass to Horn down the field and Horn dropped it. However, how many fade routes do you see the Saints complete? Now, how many darts does AB throw across the middle of the field?

If AB keeps playing like he has been, he will convert me. However, you\'ve got to know his limitations. Favre is the kind of guy that can look magical or look down right ugly. You have to know that with Favre. AB is the same way. So far he has been efficient this season. He\'s made relatively few big mistakes... (I\'d still like to see him protect the ball a little more), but those two are right. NO QB can make ALL of the throws. If you\'re a D Coordinator you game plan exactly the way those two are talking about. Jump the short routes, blitz, and make AB throw it over you.

BillyCarpenter1 09-21-2003 03:46 PM

My thoughts on the game
 
WhoDat --

I\'m not going to get in any more of an arguement on this than I already have but when you\'re running back only has 8 yards rushing and your QB plays his ass off and folks are complaining because they THINK he should have done this or that, then no one will ever make them happy.

You guys effort to find fault in Aaron\'s game is truely amazing. Touch passes eh? Please !!

blake6900 09-21-2003 04:36 PM

My thoughts on the game
 
BillyCarpenter1:
Regarding Aaron Brooks...do you think he\'s one of the top 5 QBs in the league? Do you think he\'s capable of not only throwing darts but touch passes when the need arises? Do you think he\'s able to read defenses and check off accordingly? Do you think he can throw an out pattern? Hmmm?!

Me neither.

He didn\'t cost the Saints this game...but he has cost them games in the past. And there\'s no denying that. There\'s a reason why he doesn\'t call audibles.

This game was all about defense...or, in the Saints\' case, lack of it. But you must admit that the Titans had absolutely no respect for the Saints\' passing game. That\'s obvious since they constantly had eight men in the box and flat out dared Brooks to throw over them.

I don\'t dislike Aaron Brooks but I\'d gladly give up some offensive statistics for some wins. Last year most defenses the Saints played against were happy to do the same. This year they don\'t have to.

WhoDat 09-21-2003 04:58 PM

My thoughts on the game
 
Actually Billy - I didn\'t see 08\'s post as a dig on Brooks, but rather a dig on McCarthy. Listen to what I\'ve been saying man.

\"Aaron did have a good game. He\'s playing as well as any other player on the team right now. \"

\"If AB keeps playing like he has been, he will convert me.\"

You\'re not going to get more favorable posts from me on AB than that at this point in the season. The point is, EVERY QB has limitations. 08 is right. The way to beat the Saints is to play up, crowd the line. That takes away Deuce and the short passing game. AB beat the Texans last week throwing down the field. Not this week. This is not Aaron\'s fault, it\'s McCarthy\'s. McCarthy need to spread the O and have AB throwing 10 - 20 yards down the field early - then go to the run. Lining up with two TEs and running Deuce in between the tackles... well, you see where that\'s gotten us. Our line is not a force - we need the D playing on their heals and we need Deuce hitting the corners or cutback lanes in the defensive backfield - not dodging tacklers in OUR backfield.

Again, I didn\'t see that as a dig on Brooks, but McCarthy - unless of course you think that there isn\'t a throw that AB can\'t make - which you very well may.

saintz08 09-21-2003 05:06 PM

My thoughts on the game
 
The New orleans saints , argueably have a top 5 receiving core in talent and speed in the N.F.L.

Brooks threw well for what the defense gave him .

If I am the opposing defensive coordinator , up 14 points I would give you the short underneath routes too .

Brooks cannot read defenses well , this has been brought up before and was even said by an opposing defender in a game . Duece is the key to the game against the Saints , if a defense can keep 8 in the box consistently , Deuce will not get loose .

Brooks does not audible out when defenders line 8 or 9 in the box .

The quarterback is the field general , he calls the play , has the ability to change the play and should place the ball where the receiver has the ability to make the most out of the play .

tweeky 09-21-2003 05:07 PM

My thoughts on the game
 
7-8 man fronts-
Deuce on a delay,
minus 2 yards
Repeat, repeat, punt....
McCarthy is an idiot

jm 09-21-2003 05:22 PM

My thoughts on the game
 
the performance of the day for the Saints was by Paython. Where has he been the 1st 2 games?

BillyCarpenter1 09-21-2003 06:31 PM

My thoughts on the game
 
PASSING
CP/AT YDS TD INT
A. Brooks 15/23 185 1 0

Let\'s take a look at the Aaron Brooks arugement. You guys are saying Brooks can\'t read defenses. Brooks was asked to throw the ball 23 times and completed 15 of them. That\'s a completion percentage of 65.2%.


Rushing Stats:
A. Brooks 4 15 0 11
D. McAllister 11 8 0 7

There were a total of 15 rushing attempts. Deuce ran for 8 yards. Starting to get the picture? NO? Let me spell it out for you.

The Saints had a grand total of 38 opportunities on offense today. Does this sound like enough for the Saints to be successful on offense? Well does it? Now, let\'s consider that the titans had 71 opportunities on offense today.

Why did the Saints only have 38 plays on offense. Did Brooks not complete enough passes? Is 65% not good enough. No, you guys think he should have checked out of running plays and called passes.

I\'ve been on every other Saints board and only on this one is this being said. I\'ve read articles by the experts and only on this board is this being said.

We must have some geniuses on this board. Thanks for the insight geniuses....






BrooksMustGo 09-21-2003 06:38 PM

My thoughts on the game
 
I said that today\'s loss is not on Brooks. He didn\'t make any huge plays, but he didn\'t lose the game either.

Today seemed more coaching and botched special teams

SuperbowlSaints 09-21-2003 07:24 PM

My thoughts on the game
 
i think the loss is mainly the defenses fault, but part of the blame goes to the offense as well, on defense, the secondary was pathetic, and the d-line got no pressure on Mcnair, which enalbled the Titans to march right all over us. But the offense is to blame in part, by the fumble by Stallworth, running on 1st down to much, their D could read that every time, and yes, Brooks was a very accurate passer, probably the best player on the field, Pathon comes in at a close second. but i also think that when 7 or 8 guys are at the line, i think he should have called an audible, that is the only area in which i think AB could have played better, mainly, the reason why we lost, is because our defense just did\'nt show up, it was like the titans O was just in practice, our D needs some work, a lot iof work

saintz08 09-21-2003 07:39 PM

My thoughts on the game
 
Here is another little Brooks tidbit for you Billy , But I am sure you already know it . Brooks uses the same hand signal on the Duece off tackle every time , when he audibleizes .

I am sure you have cleverly noticed this since he has been using the same signal now for 2 years .

I will let another poster point this out for you ......

Is it me or does everyone in the world know when Aaron pumps his fist behind his legs
it\'s going to be a handoff to Deuce. Why doesn\'t McCarthy change the audible? This has been going on for two years.

It does not take C.S.I. Miami to figure Brooks out ..........

BillyCarpenter1 09-21-2003 07:45 PM

My thoughts on the game
 
Yeah, do you also notice how he lifts his right leg up and down when he\'s in the shotgun, right before the ball is snapped??

Thanks again genius.

SuperbowlSaints 09-21-2003 07:49 PM

My thoughts on the game
 
saintz08-

brooks is not the problem here, the problem is our defense that reeks of oder.
overall, brooks had a great game, the only thing he could have done better, and he might not have been able to, is audible the play, i think that they\'re D is pretty good, and they were just able to stop the run, i do think that they shouldn\'t have called running plays like that when they knew that their D would read it every time, i think they should have called more pass plays, but again thats not AB\'s fault thats Mcarthy\'s fault, so, i agree with Billy, i think brooks had a great game.

WhoDat 09-21-2003 07:49 PM

My thoughts on the game
 
Dude, Billy, maybe I\'m missing something, but I don\'t see anyone here attacking Brooks. Am I? Is 08? I AM BLAMING McCARTHY. Is that not coming through to everyone else? Billy, where exactly is the confusion?

I do have one question though. How many audibles did Brooks call today? I\'m simply asking b/c someone else brought this up and I\'m not realizing that I didn\'t see very many. In fact, I can\'t think of very many at all this season.

BillyCarpenter1 09-21-2003 07:57 PM

My thoughts on the game
 
WhoDat --

saints08 has only one agenda and one agenda only and that is to find fault in Aaron Brooks. The message of the day from 08 is that the problem with our offense is that defenses have figured out Aaron can\'t read defenses and crowd the line of scrimmage and Brooks is ineffective. He\'s a pure genius I tell ya. He\'ll try to even make you believe that Aaron can\'t complete a simple screen pass. More genius.

Am I pretty close in my assessment of 08? I can pull it up quote by quote if you like.




SaintScott25 09-21-2003 08:01 PM

My thoughts on the game
 
You can\'t really blamd Deuce for lack of yardage today. Straight up the middle runs into 6-man fronts won\'t get ANYONE yards. I am NOT a fan of Jimbo Fisher, but I was more impressed w/his playcalling Saturday than McCarthy\'s today.

SuperbowlSaints 09-21-2003 08:09 PM

My thoughts on the game
 
saintz08-

why keep trying to find a reason, a valid reason, to claim that AB is not a good QB, when there is no such reason, he is an excellent QB, why do you deny it. come on, join the Brooks Bandwagon.

WhoDat 09-21-2003 08:38 PM

My thoughts on the game
 
Quote:

The message of the day from 08 is that the problem with our offense is that defenses have figured out Aaron can\'t read defenses and crowd the line of scrimmage and Brooks is ineffective.
OK. Understood. Let me ask a question though. Is that not what happened? I\'m not suggesting that Brooks can\'t read defenses with this, but I am saying that defenses have figured out that the key to stopping the Saints is to \"play up\". They do crowd the box to take the run away and congest the short middle. Opposing corners play tight and jump the short routes and flats. Wouldn\'t you agree? Thus, the key to success for the Saints would seem to me to be to throw over the top. Don\'t you think?

I\'m not saying this is Brooks\' fault. Either McCarthy doesn\'t have faith in Brooks to make those throws, or he is just too stupid to figure this out. AGAIN today the commentators said that the Saints game plan coming in was to establish the run and pound Deuce. WHAT?! The Saints need to come out spread, throw it, and then run Deuce in sprints, stretches, sweeps, or draws that don\'t involve a fullback lead.

I mean, if the problem isn\'t that defenses are crowding the box and pressing the Saints, then what is it? B/c this is NOT the offense of last season... well, maybe it is. The offense we saw in the last month of the season maybe. 10 points on O in TWO games already. That\'s a problem.

BillyCarpenter1 09-21-2003 08:48 PM

My thoughts on the game
 
IMO -- The problem is ineffective playing calling. I don\'t think you have to look any further than there. McCarthy\'s needs to use Deuce more like the Rams use Faulk. Teams are going to try to take the run away first and it\'s up to who ever is calling the plays to find ways to keep the defense honest. This isn\'t hard and doesn\'t require any special throws from the QB.

McCarthy is just stubborn or stupid(pick the on you want) and refuses to adjust his game plan. I don\'t care who we have at QB, he\'s going to have a long day at the office if he is put in the same situation. If you\'re watching Buffalo and Bledsoe, he\'s in the same situation right now and looks pathetic.

SuperbowlSaints 09-21-2003 08:58 PM

My thoughts on the game
 
what i think we need to do, is establish the passing game first, ALWAYS!!! we should spread the field, throw to all of the WR\'s, not just Joe Horn, break the run in a little bit, then once we have successfully done that, establish the Playaction pass, then after that, run like crazy all over them and let the Duece Get Loose. I DO NOT think that we should run first, then establish the pass, and running on two cosecutive downs, thats just crazy if you didn\'t get any yardage the first try, the Saints need to show a little variation in the way they run their plays, AND AGAIN, that is a playcalling issue, it is not Brooks fault.

BillyCarpenter1 09-21-2003 09:05 PM

My thoughts on the game
 
For someone to be suggesting that the reason our offense is not being successful is because of Aaron can\'t make \'touch passes\' is crazy. Getting a defense to play honest doesn\'t take a special kind of throw by the QB. IT TAKES EFFECTIVE PLAY CALLING.

I\'m through with 08 - he is a lost cause. :casstet: At least with WhoDat he is willing to reason.



[Edited on 22/9/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

WhoDat 09-21-2003 09:20 PM

My thoughts on the game
 
So then what you\'re saying is that play calling is the most important aspect to our offense\'s success or failure? I agree. I also think McCarthy is the problem - which I will be the first to admit is a reversal from preseason. I thought McCarthy was solid. I didn\'t think they\'d put up numbers like last year, but I thought they\'d be good.

Just to bust your balls a little bit Billy :) I do find it interesting that when the offense plays poorly that it is a result of the coordinator - but when they play well it\'s all Brooks. Would it stand to reason that really what is happening is that McCarthy is putting Brooks in the right position to make plays? Just busting your balls.

Lovie! Lovie! Lovie!

BillyCarpenter1 09-21-2003 09:28 PM

My thoughts on the game
 
To be honest with you WhoDat -- I feel no need to bash Brooks because it\'s too much of it already. I know that Brooks isn\'t perfect.

Man, McCarthy is really suprising me in a bad way. I\'m no coach and don\'t claim to be one, but this is just common sense stuff.

Just a quick take on the defense. I think that if we get some of the injuried players back on defense that they will be OK this year. I\'m not saying they will be anything special but the offense will need to win the time of possession battle.


FWtex 09-21-2003 10:31 PM

My thoughts on the game
 
NONONONONONONONONONO!!!! Billy you can not get on my wagon!!!!





lol I will let you on my wagon if you admit you have been wrong and I have always been right. You have made alot of inflammatory remarks against people with the view you are now taking yourself so it will take a little groveling on your part. LOL

BTW, Expect the same outcome for at least the next two weeks.

[Edited on 22/9/2003 by FWtex]

JOESAM2002 09-21-2003 11:06 PM

My thoughts on the game
 
Here\'s my question on this subject. If it\'s McCarthy\'s responsibility to call plays, who responsibility is it to call an audible? Did McCarthy threaten to fire AB if he called an audible? Something in this arguement doesn\'t add up. Because if he doesn\'t call an audible and it\'s his responsibility,uh oh! If he does call audibles and they don\'t work? uh oh! Someone\'s screwing up? I wonder who? I really think this was a complete team loss. If blame has to be placed, place it where it should be. Coachs and players. No one played a perfect game.

FWtex 09-21-2003 11:22 PM

My thoughts on the game
 
I am not willing to go so far as to pin the blame on Brooks but I do think there is a huge problem surrounding the QB position. In my mind it looks like there are 3 possible reasons for the problem.

1. Brooks game is so limited he does not allow the coaches to call the offensive game they would like.

2. Brooks is not making the correct reads and not seeing the field thus stalling the offense.

3. The coaches are limiting the offense with horrible play calling.


I have not sat in the stands for a saints game so I have not had the advantage of seeing the whole field and plays developing so I can not give a good opinion on the first 2 items.



saintz08 09-22-2003 12:02 AM

My thoughts on the game
 
Please Billy ,

Any High school Qb . knows you lift your legg in shot gun formation to set the snap count .

Punter shake their hands .

Point is ??????

saintz08 09-22-2003 12:24 AM

My thoughts on the game
 
On Brooks ability to read defensive coverages , I leave it to the men that defense against the Saints offense .

The following is from last year against the Browns , from a Browns player .

\"We showed some coverages and then changed them,\" Browns free safety Earl Little said. \"Personally, I didn\'t think he could read (defenses) that well. I think that screwed him up a little bit. That\'s what gave them a problem.\"

Brooks completed 23 of 40 passes for a season-high 318 yards, but he threw three interceptions and lost a fumble inside the Browns\' 20.

\"What I was seeing was a guy that didn\'t know if we were blitzing, didn\'t know if we were in a zone or a straight man-to-man,\" Little said. \"Personally, with or without him (Deuce), we didn\'t think he could read coverages that well, and he proved it today.\"

This is what fellow N.F.L. players think of Brooks ability ......


[Edited on 22/9/2003 by saintz08]

BillyCarpenter1 09-22-2003 08:02 AM

My thoughts on the game
 
I have no problem with people questioning whether Brooks should have called audiables in certain situations. None at all. But, 08 is stating the reason the offense is being shut down is because Brooks can\'t make touch throws. I think everyone will agree that defenses are crowding the line of scrimmage to shut Deuce down. McCarthy keeps running Deuce straight up the middle and you guys are trying to tell me this is Brooks fault?? Then 08 is telling me that Brooks can\'t even throw a simple screen pass. Please. 08 attempts to blame every situation that he can possibly think of on Brooks.

Bringing up audiable is a legit question, although I don\'t think that was the BIG problem. But , 08 trying to pin the loss on Brooks because he can\'t read defenses is CRAZY!!

Could audiables have been called in certain situations. I suppose so, but that\'s up for debate. What is not up for debate(unless you\'re blind) is the FACT that the play calling sucks.

I have been a strong supporter for McCarthy but I have no problem placing blame where it goes. Same thing with Brooks. If Brooks stinks it up. I\'ll be right here saying he stunk it up.



To get the defense to play honest doesn\'t require any special throw by the QB nor does it require the QB to audiable. What it requires is play calling to keep the defense off balance and that dont\' mean run deuce up the middle on 1st and 2nd down. How bout\' attemting a screen pass. How many screens did you see called yesterday? How many times did you see Deuce go out for a pass or run a sweep?



[Edited on 22/9/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

BigBull45 09-22-2003 08:20 AM

My thoughts on the game
 
The two screens they did attempt went for positive yardage,but the running plays were shut completely down.Conwell pretty much stayed open.Horn missed an easy TD.Brooks missed Stallworth running wide open on a slant because he was forced out of the pocket,and was focused on Horn.Brooks bought time and connected with Pathon on the TD.I think overall Brooks did exceptionally well.Mike McCarthy needs to burn the midnight oil,and study what it is he\'s doing wrong.The film room would help alot.

BillyCarpenter1 09-22-2003 09:17 AM

My thoughts on the game
 
Quote:

I am not willing to go so far as to pin the blame on Brooks but I do think there is a huge problem surrounding the QB position. In my mind it looks like there are 3 possible reasons for the problem.

1. Brooks game is so limited he does not allow the coaches to call the offensive game they would like.

2. Brooks is not making the correct reads and not seeing the field thus stalling the offense.

3. The coaches are limiting the offense with horrible play calling.


I have not sat in the stands for a saints game so I have not had the advantage of seeing the whole field and plays developing so I can not give a good opinion on the first 2 items.



FWtex -- I think that\'s a very fair assessment you gave. How can anyone question the first 2 areas you brought up without being able to see the plays develop?

On your third statement -- There is no doubt in my mind that the play calling was terrible.

FWtex 09-22-2003 10:04 AM

My thoughts on the game
 
This board sucks worse than last week. It\'s no fun when everyone is in agreement!!! Damn it doesn\'t anyone think the saints are still a playoff contending team? It\'s only been 3 games out of 16!!


BillyCarpenter1 09-22-2003 10:14 AM

My thoughts on the game
 
I absolutely think the Saints still have a realistic chance at going to the playoffs. Three games does not make a season. I will say that I did not expect the offense to be a big problem this year. I also think McCarthy will get it done. This week against the Colts.

tweeky 09-22-2003 11:09 AM

My thoughts on the game
 
Quote:

I absolutely think the Saints still have a realistic chance at going to the playoffs. Three games does not make a season. I will say that I did not expect the offense to be a big problem this year. I also think McCarthy will get it done. This week against the Colts.
Well they better get it going. Another bad game and this team, which has quit on us before, may go into their December slide a few months early.

If we don\'t turn it around quick, we could easily be 2-7 at the break.

FWtex 09-22-2003 11:17 AM

My thoughts on the game
 
What ???? You think McCarthy will get it done OR do you hope McCarthy will get it done? Those are two very different questions?

McCarthy is as good as a one song band in the 80\'s! He had one philosophy with his offense and once teams figured it out he was toast. The guy does not know how to game plan or call plays.

The last time this offense played remotely well was the last Tampa game last year. I have seen the same ineffective offense ever since that game. Have you noticed that the only time the offense gets rolliing is when the saints are behind and the opposing defense is playing soft? McCarthy does not know how to attack a team. He relies on the other team to play soft before the saints Offense can get a rythym going.

That is the philosophy of a .500 team.


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