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this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; After that terrible display of what we can loosely call Football by the Saints on Sunday, I dreaded coming to this board. Reading about all the disapointment we all feel right now is not something I looked forward to. However, ...

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Old 12-31-2002, 10:55 AM   #1
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Remember Rome

After that terrible display of what we can loosely call Football by the Saints on Sunday, I dreaded coming to this board. Reading about all the disapointment we all feel right now is not something I looked forward to. However, after a day's worth of reading, listening to the media, and my own reflection of it all, I have a few things I'd like to say...

Number one...where did you all come from? Don't get me wrong. The more people on this site the better, but where were all these newbys during the season? It's sad, but it's true. Sports fans simply love to complain. I haven't read every post since the loss on Sunday, but of the ones I have read, I haven't seen anyone say anything that wasn't linked to "we suck" or "AB sucks" etc, etc. Where were you all when the Saints were 6-1? Were you all too busy to stop by? Why is it only now that you find the time to toss in your nickle's worth? I, for one, am not impressed.

Number two...I give Saintz08 his due. He's been on AB's behind all year. It is for that reason that I can stomach his griping. I happen to disagree, but then that's life. He makes some valid points, and he grasps for straws ocassionally, but at least he was here from start to finish. He has never waivered in his misguided attempts to turn the fan base against AB. I'm not sure why, but I have to admire him for that.

Number three...I'm happy to FINALLY see some posts that show there are SOME people that recognize this team's real problem...DEFENSE...or a serious lack of it. I agree that Dave Campo would be a nice fit in New Orleans. It does my heart good to see some of you posting a rational thought rather than screaming the same 'ol rhetoric.

My thoughts after this season (and even after the collapse) are generally positive. We started the year with a 2nd year starter at QB. He shined at times and his youth showed at times. At least I can say I expected that. I would have liked to see AB make fewer mistakes, but he's young and he's still learning. In AB's defense I must also question the play calling at times. Next season will be the real test for Brooks. As much as some of you hate to hear me say that, the fact of the matter is that it's true. Saintz08 and I have argued about it for 17 weeks, but I firmly believe that AB is the Saints QB of the future. I cannot blame him soley for this year's ending 0 for three or last year's 0 for 4. The Saints haven't managed to win their last game of the year in their last 7 trys. AB hasn't been here that long!

We started this season with tons of changes on the offensive line. They played well together at times and at others would have made the Dallas Cowboys line look like all pros. Brooks had a new (and disapointing) tight end, and two new receivers. We had a first year (although not a rookie) running back too. No one can say anything about Deuce's performance, but I think everyone on offense at one time or another played a part in what turned out to be another typical year for New Orleans. No one player can be blamed for a season in which too many breakdowns in too many areas caused too many problems.

I won't mention much about the defense, since even a casual fan could see it was just horrible. Am I the only one who thinks we actually got worse after Dale Carter was reinstated? I'm not blaming Dale for it, but something changed about that time, and it wasn't a positive change either. The linbackers (loosely defined) were as bad as any in the league. The Saints just don't have any talent there. The front four was soft...VERY soft, and it sure looked to me like they were unmotivated too. The coaches have to take some heat for that. I see wholesale changes on defense in the offseason, and I welcome each and every one of them.

Finally, let me say that Rome wasn't built in a day. Yes, I'm optomistic, but then I'm a Saints fan. Sue me. I am also an Atlanta Braves fan too. I remember the days when they couldn't win 60 games in a season. It will come people. We must all have faith. That's not to say we shouldn't voice our opinions, but let's be realistic. We don't really need a new QB. Our receivers are good players. We've got a good full back and tail back too. Save a few players on defense, that side of the ball needs some serious attention, and I expect that will be addressed through the draft and free agency. Thanks to a copule of shrewd (and not very Satins-like) trades, we're set up well for the draft, and we have some room to move under the cap too.

Indeed, Rome wasn't built in a day people. Nero (Ditka) is gone.

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Old 12-31-2002, 12:02 PM   #2
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Remember Rome

Saintfan, I\'ll agree thet Rome was not built in a day, but Rome did not have Benson choosing its leaders either. I just don\'t see Rome (the SAINTS) leading the world as long as Benson keeps making such poor decisions or puts other incompitents in place to do so. Wholesale change is needed.

Hasslett, whom I have praised on numerous occasions this year on BlackandGold has unfortunately fallen into the stereotypical mold of his SAINTS head coach predecessors. Hi refuses to make changes even when their necessity is apparent to everyone else. He refuses to accept fault for his mistakes and does not encourage his player to accept fault either. He is just plain stubborn and has not shown that he has the skills necessary to fully utile the great tallent that he has at his ready.

I\'ll happily admit that the SAINTS had some of the best offensive weapons in their history this year. Duece, Horn and the entire special teams unit were world class. AB even showed that he could be an MVP. But something went terribly wrong. Brooks crumbled under the pressure late in the season and Has was too stubborn to pull him, even when it meant that the entire ship had to go down with its ailing captain. That just SUCKED!

The O-line showed promise, but could still use the help of a capable free agent or two.

On the other hand, the defense as a whole reeked. The front line was porous at best and the middle of the secondary left way too much to be desired. The only bright spots were some scattered nice showings from Bellamy, Knight and Thomas. Big changes are needed here in both personnel and coaching.

As far as all of the recent *****ing goes, it can only be expected to some extent. Although I too wish thet more of these guts would have come on board a lot earlier than they did. Still, this board was rocking pretty good without them during the first half of the season.

I wish I had more positive things to say about our team right now than I do, but the sting of the last three games is still too painful. I just hate watching it all go down the drain again when it did not really have to this year.

Oh well, maybe someone will wake up and smell the horse sh#t before it\'s too late to salvage next season.

Go SAINTS!!!!!

David in Houston

Go SAINTS!!!!!

David in Houston
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Old 01-01-2003, 12:31 PM   #3
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Remember Rome

Rome was not built in a day , agreed . The problem is we are not talking , the Empire or the Roman army here . What we are discussing here is NFL football , where players come and go sometimes faster then the fans can spell their names , where cap casualities are a household name and egos can sometimes dictate the length of a contract rather then the actual signed document .

The whole organization below Benson is an interesting assessment to say the least , Coaches that coach positions they have never coached before . Would you call an electrician to fix a plumbing leak ?? According to Haslett , Yes they are both tradesman , they can be interchanged .

Haslett himself cannot figure out the health status of his own starting quarterback , one minute \" There is nothing wrong with Aaron Brooks \" after the game interviews when asked \" Will Aaron Brooks require surgery ? \" answer \" Maybe we will have to see \".

Haslett again asked \" Why did you not put Jake Delhomme in while Brooks was stuggling and try to ignite the offense ? \" Answer \" I never thought of putting Jake in \". This is kind of a funny answer , because 70 + thousand fans were pinging Jakes name off the side of his head like a sub sonar tring to find another sub . At one point had he turned around he might have seen the writing on the wall .

This somehow leads me into Brooks , and the 2 words consistently used to describe him , talented and potential . It has been said engineers have an equation in which they can hold an Elephant from falling off the side of a cliff by using only the Elephants tail and a blade of grass . I ask how many Elephants do we sacrifice on the jagged rocks below before we admit this was not such a great idea in application ??? How many more seasons do we as fans sacrifice before we say enough is enough ??

Brooks is a product of the system and his success has been directly related to it . Duece could have 200 yard days if Brooks could stretch the field with a few deep balls every now and then . Brooks is inaccurate on the deep routes , I think he hit 2 out of 12 attempts all year . What good is having a receiver that runs a 4.1 - 40 if your quarterback cannot throw a fly pattern pass ???? Has anyone seen Brooks go to the sidelines after 3 and out and look at the field photos to try and figure the defense out ?? Or go to the sidelines after 3 and out and discuss with the group how to get the ball moving ? How many times does Brooks see a coverage he does not like and audible out ? The majority of times I see Brooks on the sidelines , it\'s with his water bottle and his blankie around his neck . A few times working the gum , but never the coverage photos . If players follow his leadership it is no wonder they slide at the end of the season and loose to teams that are hungry for a win . Brooks is about the show and the money and once he got it his desire and hunger fell dramatically .

The defense is another story , the defensive scheme and the middle linebacker are all wrong . There is no pressure at times and who drops a linebacker into coverage to cover Randy Moss ?? Earlier I posted , James Allen should replace Clemmons . Clemmons is too fat and slow and confused to play the position , at least with Allen they only have confused in the middle . Allen started against Carolina and it\'s the first game they did not give up 20 or more points . The defense would be in the top 10 with the additions of 1 DT pass rusher , 1 cover corner , 1 OLB and 1 MLB . Go base 4-3 and shoot the gaps with the OLB and MLB and safety on rotation from time to time .

If the foundation is not solid , the building will collapes no matter how good it looks at times . The foundation for the offense is the quarterback and the foundation for the defense is the middle linebacker . The foundation is where you look when something collapses ......

\"Americans play to win at all times. I wouldn\'t give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed.\" - George S. Patton
On another note, I\'ll take a bite of that crow 08. - Saintfan
Brooks is a moron!! - Halo
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Old 01-01-2003, 03:03 PM   #4
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Remember Rome

Saintsfan......I agree with your opinion that we have quality people at the receiver and back positions but I cannot agree on the QB issue. I was one of the first to voice a negative opinion of Brooks very early in the year when we were winning. It does not matter whether someone posted early in the year or after the recent slide, the fact remains that Brooks has had plenty of time to mature and has not done it and Haslett did not realize that a change was necessary at QB to save this season which could have, and should have ended much better for the Saints. I also think that Brooks will be the starter headed into the preseason but I think this is a mistake. His mechanics as a QB suck and its just that simple. I also think the defense needs improvement but I blame alot of the late season defensive ineffectiveness on the offense for failing to capitalize on early game field position given to them by the defense and failing to get TD\'s. I would get dejected as a defensive player as well if you kept getting the ball for the offense and they can\'t get TD\'s. A team\'s success starts with, and is focused on the ability of the QB to establish the will of the team, so please don\'t try to downplay the demise of Brooks and the dramatic effect it had on the entire team as this slaps in the face of an intellectual football fan. This is a cut and dry issue and Brooks should not go into the preseason with a job sewed up as he has not earned it.
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Old 01-01-2003, 08:17 PM   #5
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Remember Rome

\"Number one...where did you all come from? Don\'t get me wrong. The more people on this site the better, but where were all these newbys during the season? It\'s sad, but it\'s true. Sports fans simply love to complain. I haven\'t read every post since the loss on Sunday, but of the ones I have read, I haven\'t seen anyone say anything that wasn\'t linked to \"we suck\" or \"AB sucks\" etc, etc. Where were you all when the Saints were 6-1? Were you all too busy to stop by? Why is it only now that you find the time to toss in your nickle\'s worth? I, for one, am not impressed\".

Saintfan:
- Sites like this get a flood of new people exactly BECAUSE things go bad. That\'s why we gravitate to the Saints-Suck posts; the opportunity to share a common loss and sense of frustration is distinctly comforting. We mere mortals rely on well-informed people like yourself to provide some sense of reassurance founded in fact rather than speculation.
- And we do \"get you wrong\" mate. Your mealy-mouthed assertions welcoming new participants can\'t hide a considerable sense of resentment on your part, especially when you make this your most important \"Number One\" point.
- However, as fellow Saints Fans, perhaps we understand that we often project our own Saints\'-based resentments at the innocent bystanders we live with, or the nearest inanimate object.
- I would have thought that the defusion of such resentments is part of the public service of a site like this.
- I appreciate that you & the loyal faithful were here when Saints were 6-1. You were waiting for us to show up. Thanks for being here when needed.
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Old 01-01-2003, 09:46 PM   #6
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Remember Rome

Naylor

All fans of the Black and Gold are welcomed additions to this site . Glad to have you aboard . Its the Falcons fans we cannot stand . Funny part is the Bucs fans hate the Falcons fans too .

Saintsfan has done a fine job of defending Brooks throughout the season . While I think Brooks would make a fine addition to the Bungles team . I have even traded Brooks on Madden PS2 , by the way , he can\'t read defenses there either . :P

This site is always looking for new sources of information and posters thoughts , we rag on each other and sometimes get out of hand but one thing is for sure we all bleed black and gold .

Hope to see some posts soon .

\"Americans play to win at all times. I wouldn\'t give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed.\" - George S. Patton
On another note, I\'ll take a bite of that crow 08. - Saintfan
Brooks is a moron!! - Halo
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Old 01-02-2003, 12:17 AM   #7
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Remember Rome

Amen Saints08. Sure we take our frustrations out here but like you said let a Falcon fan come in and start on the Saints and see what happens. Yes we condemn bad play but we also are the first to praise good play too. We don\'t always agree with how to fix problems but we are open to discuss it here. I too had AB on 4 of 6 of my fantasy football teams but he did me well I won all 4 championships. LOL. We do however ALL love the black and gold. I for one have enjoyed all the posts at this site, I didn\'t agree with all of them but enjoyed them non the less.
GO SAINTS!

Sometimes it's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought an idiot, than to open it and remove all doubt!!!!!

"Every time you think, you weaken the nation!" Moe Howard...The Three Stooges.
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Old 01-02-2003, 01:22 PM   #8
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Remember Rome

I have been a long time browser or Blackand Gold but a relatively sporadic poster. I was more involved before the format change but that was simply because my job has gotten more demanding now. I still make time every week to read a few threads and keep up on gossip I don\'t get living way up north in Canada. I will proudly state that I am a 20+ years Saints fan and will live and die every Sunday with them.
As disappointed as I was after the last 3 game collapse I am probably more optimistic this offseason that any previous. Every January I try to find something good to look forward to for next year. I can confidently say this season that we should be better next year and get a playoff spot. We have some terrific talent on this team and as poor as our defense played this year I think it has more to do with the system than the talent level. Am I the only one who sees Charlie Clemons as a bad fit ay middle LB? He never once looked like a MLB in his career, I meam do you through a LB that has 13.5 sacks one year at MLB? Anyway my point is.....sorry it took so long, we need a legitimate defensive coordinator who can make us an aggressive defense. All year we seemed to let the offenses bring it to us, move the ball at their will, no challenging them, no forcing them to play our game. Marvin Lewis, even in Washington, makes his defense set the tone, even if the other team can take advantage of that, his defense plays their game, not what the offense makes them play.
If I had an offseason wish list it would be:
1) New D-Coordinator that moves us to a 3-4 system
2) We have adequate DL depth if we cut Norman Hand and re-sign Grady Jackson (who played his heart out). Chase and Jackson can rotate at NT, Howard, Grant, Whitehead, Kenny Smith can rotate at DE
3) Move Clemons to OLB in the 3-4 if he will re-sign for reasonable $$, if not run Darrin Smith and Sedrick Hodge at OLB, James Allen at one of the ILB positions and get a true MLB out of the FA such as Chris Claiborne from Detroit. We could even get more aggressive in the pass rush if we got a stud OLB like Boulware from Baltimore (very fluent in the 3-4) or Roosevelt Colvin from Chicago or Mike Peterson from Indianapolis. A few other names like Takeo Spikes and Anthony Simmons are intriging.
4) We need a massive secondary upgrade and the only Free Agent names that jump out are Chris McAlister and Izell Reese. Either would upgrade the CB or S positions. I would like to see Fred Thomas stay but other than that the starting secondary can change.
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Old 01-02-2003, 04:24 PM   #9
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Remember Rome

Saintsfan...I see where you are coming from. However it\'s not exactly fair to call out all of us \"newbys\" for a few reasons. First of all...unless there were some guidlines I missed, this is a free board to post opinions as we see fit so long as they are not vulgar or slanderous statements. Next,, I\'m sure quite a few fans who stormed the board were the same fans that helped to fill the Dome every Sunday in support of their team, and I think they feel justified that they didn\'t get their money\'s worth. In my case....I\'m a soldier in the US Army, and I don\'t always have the time to monitor the boards like some other people may have time to do. It doesn\'t mean that we are Saints bashers or fairweather fans. Believe me, if the Saints were sitting 12-4 right now, I would still be on this board. I was the only NO in NY driving 70 miles every Sunday to watch the Saints at Hooter\'s. It\'s my passion for the team that has sparked me to really speak my mind. My unwavering support for this team and it\'s inability to fufill my expectations gives me and the other \"bashers\" the right as a fan to critcize them as much as I want. It\'s not as simple as you\'re making it out to be.

I believe we are all disappointed by the Saints finish. It\'s been a few days now...and I\'ve accepted it. What I wrote in my posts were written from emotion, but it was all true. I\'ve accepted Aaron Brooks and Jim Hasslett for who they are. I think you are trying to save face a bit from your Aaron Brooks statements. He\'s proven that he doesn\'t have the maturity or intelligence of any other NFL quarterback, much less Michael Vick, his own cousin. I still believe that Aaron Brooks is probably the most talented QB in the league. No QB smarts hurts him though. He gets by on pure talent. Anyway...I digress...I still believe in this team...and I will always be a Saints fan. We criticize because we care.
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