Same... Old... Saints...
 

While I'm surprised and delighted to see the Saints late season surge, and a little character out of this team, this is the same old Saints. I have no doubt that after today's win there will be no shortage of fans defending this team and its players and coaches. Not sure I can blame you.

Of course, if you put all emotions aside and look at what this team has done, you'll see it ain't much. For the second straight year it finds itself 8-8 and one game out of the playoffs. For the fourth straight year they are one game within .500 and home in January. The offense is still inconsistent - explosive one week, or on one drive, and then terrible on the next. The defense showed improvement along the line and at corner somewhat, but ultimately, it's still last in the league.

As a result, what will change? Probably nothing. I doubt Loomis, Haslett, or McCarthy will go anywhere. Venturi may stay.

I have no doubt people will say, yeah but it's different this time. Look at the late season rally they had (against losing teams and ATL's backups). Look at the character when faced with adversity - they went from 4-8 to 8-8!! Kind of like when they went from what, 2-5 to 8-8 last season?

I'm sure no one will remember, and many who do will rationalize and make what only equate to excuses, but all those things fans of this team demanded in the offseason was a winning season and the playoffs. Again they didn't have either of their demands met, and I predict as usual, everyone will back off of those demands. As usual, fans of this team will be satisfied with mediocrity and predictions for next season that are more likely than not only pipe dreams.

From 4-8 to 8-8... one of the best meaningless turn-arounds I've seen in a while.

Now come one, come all BnGers and rationalize once again why the coaching staff and front office personnel deserve to stay. Announce again all the reasons why next season really really really really really will be the one we finally do right this time for real I promise.

Jim Haslett get this year's "Dave Wanstadt Coach Award"... again. Is there another active head coach who hasn't made the playoffs in 4 years?

Same... Old... Saints...
 

Take a bite off the bitter stick today WhoDat?

Same... Old... Saints...
 

Yeah, we obviously have our problems. And consistancy seems to be the main one. And that\'s a buck that should stop at the coaches desk. I still say it\'s time to go coach shopping.

Same... Old... Saints...
 

Uhh, weren\'t you the ringleader of hoping we\'d lose out?
Hmmm. Interesting comment
But I\'m sure you eventually will.
I\'ll agree with that.
WhoDat, I hope you\'re wrong. It\'ll be sad sor all of us if you\'re right on this.

Uhh, who exactly are you talking about here? 99% of Saints fans won\'t say that.

A solid achievement, but hardly an excuse for an underachieving team. You are right though, approximatley 1% of Saints fans will harp about that, allowing you and a minute few to erroneously scream \"I told you so\" for six months.
Yea, I\'ve heard a lot of people say \"yea. I\'m OK with mediocrity\"
Gimme a freakin break WhoDat. You got more game than this don\'t ya?

OK you wanna tell me who said this wasn\'t a make or break year for this staff? C\'mon WhoDat, just name one person.
Just ONE is all I ask. Or are you just bitter about your erroneous 10-6 projection? which BTW was also mine. ;)

Same... Old... Saints...
 

tick tick tick

Same... Old... Saints...
 

I don\'t care if you have the absolute perfect avatar,
Inquiring minds are waiting. :sleeping:

[Edited on 2/1/2005 by Danno]

Same... Old... Saints...
 

-Crickets chirping---
-tumble weeds... well... tumbling---

[Edited on 3/1/2005 by Danno]

Same... Old... Saints...
 

Sorry for the delay... did you smoke some crack this afternoon Danno? :) Kinda hyper. Your comments seem a little defensive - my post wasn\'t directed at you... or anyone for that matter. Anyway...

Not really all that interesting. Many people on this board assumed that b/c I said that I thought it best for the Saints to lose out that I was a Saint-hater. Emotionally, I always want them to win - sometimes you just have to put logic above heart. It\'s like feeling bad watching your kid get a flu shot. You feel terrible for subjecting him to a painful and traumatic event, but you do it for his own good. Same idea.

I guess time will tell. I cannot prove something will happen just as you cannot prove it will not. I can, however, point to the growing number of people on this board and in the media who seem content with saying, \"Well, maybe it\'s not Haslett.\" Maybe he has \"coach-killer\" players. Maybe he\'s just got a terrible GM or bad assistants. Maybe we should get rid of them and keep him. Do you disagree that has happened over the last month? I don\'t think he is deserving, that\'s my point, but I\'m sure people will forget the past this offseason like they seem to do every year.

This is what I\'m talking about. Why are you slinging one this way, I\'m not coming at you. I do think your 99% number is about 49% off, but like I said, time will tell.

Please Danno. Are you telling me that people on this board, yourself included, have not used injuries, fatigue, youth, locker room discontent, and even luck to rationalize why the Saints have been mediocre year in and year out? After the first year, it\'s understandable. After the second you have to at least be hesitant. After the third if you don\'t start seeing the \"rationale\" as \"excuses\" and start demanding wins then yes, I say you are content with mediocrity.

Saintfan. Challenge met. But that wasn\'t the point. You missed it entirely. EVERYONE said it was a make or break year BEFORE the season. It will be interesting to see how many people actually stick by that. Few I think. Or let me put it another way Danno, are you in favor then of a complete house-cleaning? You think Haslett should go along with the rest?

[Edited on 3/1/2005 by WhoDat]

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A LOT of folks were calling this a make or break year for Haz, from both sides of the divide as I recall.

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Kinda funny, 8 MAKES and 8 BREAKS. Don\'t guess that was what we were looking for, huh? ;)

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Sorry Whodat, my heart was still pumpin about 140 beats per minute when I wrote that.

Still can\'t believe the most unlikely of all 3 games happened.
1. We beat Carolina. I didn\'t think we would.
2. Washington beat the Vikes.
3. St Louis beats the Jets.

In a way you are right, that is EXACTLY the same old Saints.
But usually every thing falls in to place for us and WE choke away a playoff spot.

Done in by a Rams FG, again.

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It sucks, no doubt. I felt sick to my stomach watching that Rams game. I didn\'t realize Doug Brien was kicking for the Jets, but the second I heard his name I knew he\'d miss. An ex-Saint could never do anything to help his former team.

Of course, there were 8 games this year where a little better effort makes all the difference. The Saints have no one to blame but themselves... again. Haslett has yet to go better than 3-5 in at least one half of any full season in the last 4 at least. That\'s crap.

In any case, my prediction from above is that many Saints fans will kick the ground and say aw shucks. They\'ll blame the stupid Rams or Vikings or the NFL for crazy tie-breaker rules. They\'ll say that the Saints did everything they could and it\'s not their fault. It is their fault. They went 8-8. They had the worst defense in the NFL. At one point we were talking about the Saints being nearly as bad as SF and Miami.

As you pointed out, nearly everyone on this board said they would be screaming for Haslett\'s head if the Saints didn\'t make the playoffs this year. Well, they didn\'t, and I don\'t expect to hear much screaming.

Same... Old... Saints...
 

We are, by the hardest, 8-8 AGAIN!!!!! What is wrong here is that we were relying on a loss by some team rather than relying on a high W-L record like Pittsburg, Philly, Atlanta. We have seen 4 back to back seasons that revolve around 8-8. The only reason that we ARE 8-8 is the outstanding evolvement of Fakir Brown and Mike McKenzie. I believe that this will be looked at as the best personnel move made by New Orleans in a while. The thing to be careful about is that LOOMBOOM doesn\'t try to get creative with the contract and annoy McKenzie into a position like he faced in GB.

Brooks has to go. LoomBoom, McCarthy, and Moss have to go. Venturi needs to be demoted to a position coach. The draft needs to center around getting one or two beast O-tackles. And we need to seriously look to get someone here who is a free agent leader at QB.

I believe the reason that we won out though is McKenzie and Grant. Grant is the captain of the defense. But his play steps up a notch with McKenzie because he can concentrate on line play. Watson, and Bockwaldt are going to be outstanding, with a decent LB coach. Also, T-Jones is kicking it up a notch with his play. He should have a great year with McKenzie. This guy is the missing piece. Defense should not be a huge problem next year.

Again, Brooks needs to go. Whether or not you like or dislike him, he has said and done things this season that are enough to alienate both fans and team members alike. So, begone and do well.

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With the luxury of a rare walk around Audubon Park to soothe my battered psyche, I sank deep into the reflection of the Saints\' season in the waters of the lagoon.

Lagoon. Thick. Murky. Lifeless.

Maybe there\'s an insight here. The only sign of life the organisation showed occured when there was an enemy. Amazingly, the enemy was the Owner and the GM!! The late burst of energy predictably smothered in the decay of rotting expectations. Lagoons dam themselves up. Or should it be damn.

It is more than obvious that the loose collection of individuals that call themselves the Saints need leadership. They need a uniting force that inspires the breakthrough of the dam. They need to have more to motivate them than the satisfaction of sticking their toungues out at each other and saying. \"SEE! you didn\'t think we could even get this far!\".

When they haven\'t really gone anywhere and the effort didn\'t lead to anything, just like a lagoon.

Same... Old... Saints...
 

While I am disappointed in the season --- and I certainly think that the late season surge is/was overated for what it worth -- I must say that I at least have seen some positives which were not there earlier and are reasons to believe we have something to build on. We have a couple of star defensive players to anchor around -- Grant was super this year -- the addition of McKenzie is something to applaud --- Will Smith looks like he will blossom into a great defensive player -- the young linebackers look to have potential == Tebucky certainly played a lot better this year and if he improves as much next year as he did this year he may be a top safety in the league. All in all a lot more to be thankful for than our defensive ranking may lead you.

Same... Old... Saints...
 

Defense is solid and with a few players at lb and safety could be really special. I was all for trading Howard before but only if it bring us A)another good corner B) a good linebacker or C) a late first or high second draft pick. If not keep him. He was dominant when he played.

I agree with RDOX, Brooks has to go, Carolina game aside. It was obvious by the crickets chirping at his impromptu speech to the team before the Carolina game that he has alienated himself from the team. And his \"I am a great qb, my team is inconsistent and struggling,\" should have whoever is GM on the phone as soon as a trade can be made. He has to go.

Same... Old... Saints...
 

I\'m disapppointed we didn\'t make the playoffs... BUT ...

I don\'t think there\'s too many teams who were playing better than the Saints as of late.

Further, our defense, has shown SIGNIFICANT sings of improvement. Just ask Jake Delhomme and the Carolina Panthers. Over the last 4-weeks, no runningback has rushed for over 100-yards. And our pass rush is killing QBs.

The main reason our offense has been inconsistent this year is because Deuce was hurt for most of the season. And our offensive line didin\'t help him much either. That\'s not the only reason, but it is the MAIN reason.

WhoDat is all for change with NO plan of who should be the next coach.

Who\'s to say the next guy won\'t be worse?

Winnning the last 4 games, to me, is a springboard to next year.

A couple of years ago Carolina made a late season surge and the next year they were in the Super Bowl.

WhoDat, along with many others, gave the Saints NO chance of beating the Jake and the Panthers. We\'ll we dominated the Panthers and some really don\'t like Haz and the Saints proved them wrong.

Some folks will never give credit where credit is due.

I think we finially have the players on defense to be very good. Yeah, it\'s taken longer than I would have liked. But, I damn sure ain\'t ready to make a change just for changes sake.



[Edited on 4/1/2005 by GumboBC]

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Well put...bravo :D :D :D

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Hey Danno, please take note. This is what I\'m talking about when I say some people are happy with mediocrity. Notice Billy didn\'t say we could be better - no he said it may get worse. That\'s fear - better to be average than deal with being bad to be good.

I\'ve been called pessimistic by Billy and others time and again. Mainly b/c I\'ve criticized this coaching staff and Aaron Brooks. In 2001 and early 2002 I was just a guy with a grudge against Brooks. By last season I was the most pessimistic person Billy and SF had ever met. Why? B/c I predicted this team would go 8-8 or 9-7. How can you be a pessimist when your assessment is right?

I knew people, especially Billy, would point to the late season indicators and, as always, \"rationalize\". It\'s amazing that some people can\'t remember longer than a few games ago.

Hey Billy, how did the Saints finish last season? Did they go 5-3 in the second half of the season? Did the defense, despite a slew of injuries finish 18th in the league (14 spots better than this year mind you)? Did Deuce have his best season ever finishing, what, second in the NFC in rushing? Did Brooks have his best numbers ever? The answer to all of those questions is yes. How did this season turn out?

I\'ve suggested ways this team could get better through coaching and personnel changes all season long. I don\'t have to recite them again for you b/c you weren\'t around the board when the Saints were 4-8. Funny how you showed up in the last two weeks again, bold as ever.

Same... Old... Saints...
 

Oh, and Billy, before we go too much further with this, I\'d just like to remind you of a few of your comments from the 2004 offseason and preseason... and even early regular season.

6/22
http://www.blackandgold.net/site/mod...=5221#pid27779


8/26
http://www.blackandgold.net/site/mod...=5907#pid30875


8/27
http://www.blackandgold.net/site/mod...=5967#pid30988


9/21
http://www.blackandgold.net/site/mod...d&tid=6331#pid

So, my question to you then, is what did you see this season that made you change your mind about Haslett and Co.? What about this season makes you think that they deserve to stay? You do realize that you\'re now on your third opinion about Haslett in less than two years right? Great coach, bad coach, good enough to stay....

Same... Old... Saints...
 

well i wouldnt say the last 4 games were the same old saints but the whole season was the same old saints. maybe we have found some players on defense who can really continue the turn around next year. im not sure. more then likely we come out and have the same season next year. im willing to give it one more year though. this team showed character and heart. boy if we could have just had that the first 12 games. im willing to try one more year only because if we get a new coach this whole thing gets changed around. something i was looking for before the last 4 games. if we keep the d basically the same maybe they come out better or as well as they were theese last 4 games. i could take that. but it is an if. thats the biggest problem. because we dont know if the corner has been turned or just more of the same and more of the same next year. it is a rsik. im willing to make it for one more year because i think the risk is equal if we get a new coach. if we had nothing to loose like when we were 4-8 and headed for what seemed a 5-11 or 6-10 season i was willing to have a new coach. but now since there is something to build off of i\'d like to wait for only one more season. if things are the same next year then thats it. no more chances.

Same... Old... Saints...
 

I cannot believe people are pointing to our defense as a strength all of a sudden. Yes, they played better in the last 4 games, but c\'mon!! They were 32nd in the league! LAST!

Same... Old... Saints...
 

Indeed, hard to argue. The most baffling thing may be: just what in the heck got into them? No significant personnel changes (McKenzie was around before the last four games), no late-season DC change (though there were some rumors that Haz took more responsibility in defensive play-calling), no real significant support from the offense, either (the defense kept us in the Carolina game). Why couldn\'t this defense have shown up all season?

It\'s a riveting question ... any ideas?

Same... Old... Saints...
 

Here\'s my take on the whole D-improvement. And it just went from horrible to slightly below avarage.
CORNERBACKS
The emergence of Brown and McKenzie solidified our secondary enough to take some more chances with the front seven. Both are solid versus the run and pass.
They also play with fire and attitude. A huge upgrade of Ambrose/Thomas. Craft is a good nickle.

LINEBACKERS
We ended the season with Allen, Watson, and Bockwoldt. A 3rd year guy who appears to be getting it now, a rookie MLB, and a 7th round rookie project. I think its more of an indictment of just how bad Ruff, Hodge, and even Rodgers were.
Allen is finally playing the SLB like many thought he could, but you kinda have to worry about a guy that takes 3 years to learn how to play LB. He still has me worried.

Watson I\'m impressed with. I have no problem keeping him in the middle.

Bockwoldt is playing only because everyone else sucks. But he was an upgrade to what we had, which is sad. But I am excited about his potential. He\'s got blazing speed and perfect size for the WLB, now he just needs to get stronger.

D-LINE
I think they started to play within Pease\'s system and its now working. Whitehead coming back sure helped. We have 3 of the 4 pieces of the puzzle in place. But I don\'t want to go into next year at NT with a street FA (Green) and an undersized converted DE (Whitehead or Kenny Smith) trying to play the nose.

This unit looked much improved by seasons end, but they are FAR from being above-average. But going from an \"F\" to a \"C\" doesn\'t mean we\'re the freakin Ravens now.

Same... Old... Saints...
 

well danno were not the ravens but u cant argue with results. which were less then 20 points each game the last 4. i think that whitehead and the changes at lb and of course corner helped. i really like the way our d played against dalls and more importantly the last game against carolina. i didnt see the atlanta game. but carolina was putting up like 30 points a game on average during their streak. so i would have to say there is hope there. i think we can compete. but it is all about attitude. and one thing u would almost have to think is that if they stunk under has and then were good under has well then the problem would be the players. i mean can you be 4-8 because of the coaching and then 4-0 because of the coaching. doesnt make much sense. but i would agree coaching or not if they cant win next year he has to go because at some point u have to find players that will do whats asked of them. n i for one am in love with bockwoldt

Same... Old... Saints...
 

Very well put. The other problem is the committee selecting these players. That is the GM and the DPP. All of the talk about getting rid of Haz, and I admit I was in it too, is eclipsed by the absolutely bush league, low class, and back stabbing behavior of LoomBoom and the rest of his front office crew.

Assuming that Tom Donahue is available to replace LoomBoo, and that Tom brings a competent DPP into the mixture, and we change at both Coordinators and LB coach, we may be better with help from free agency and a strong draft. This is especially true if we can pawn Fumbles the Clown off to and unsuspecting Dallas team for Henson, or sign a journeyman QB and draft a hot young prospect. With LoomBoom those hopes will be dashed and we\'ll be happy to see 8-8 again.

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WhoDat --

You want change and that\'s fine.

But, anyone can see the significant improvement on defense. Forget the ranking of the defense. I know what I saw the last 4 or 5 games and it was far from being the worst defense in the NFL.

There\'s all kinds of reasons the defense improved. But the bottom line is they improved significantly.

If the Saints would have played great early in the season and then had a major fall-off, then I\'d say show Haz the door. But they played poorly early and made huge strides late in the season.

Playoffs would have been great but I\'m sure looking foward to seeing that 32nd ranked defense next year. I think most fans are excited about the defense now.

Could a new coaching staff make us better? I really have no idea. And you can\'t say if we would be better or worse. The only thing you can say for certain is you THINK we will be better with a new coach.

No, I can\'t promise anything if Haz stays. But I can promise you they did a hell of a job improving this defense and rallying the troops and almost made the playoffs.

I\'m not satisfied, I\'m not happy, but Haz showed me enough to give him one more year.

Maybe I\'m the biggest sucker on the planet but..... ;)

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It\'s just too easy. ;)

No way to comment on that.

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gumbo i agree with some of what u said. the fact is if we go with a new coach then we r rebuilding. i was willing to do that when we had nothing to play for because at that point ur rebuilding regardless of ur coach. but if we have something to build off of lets give it one more year. because with a new coach were in the same position but actually ina little bit worse

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I used to be a big Haz fan. But after last year, I wanted him gone.

For the past few years this defense has been horrible. I just couldn\'t understand how Haz ( a defensive coach) couldn\'t get this defense to play better.

But now, I\'m sold they have it straighted out to a point to where I believe it will be a major strength next year. Who knows what a new coaching staff will do.

I think the defense can compete right now. With a couple of more players, it could be really dominate.

It\'s all speculation to how this team will be next year, regardless of coaching. But, I think the safe bet is for Haslett to stay. Let\'s not forget that Tom Benson has a history of picking some terrible coaches.

Do you have more faith in Haslett?

Or do you have more faith in Tom Benson?

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Billy - you have faith in a defense that has been bad for 4 years b/c of 4 games? That\'s like saying I have faith that the Saints offense is the best in the league b/c they averaged 30+ points a games in the first 8 of 2002 when they went 6-2. That\'s twice as many games as your 4, and they played twice as well on offense.

The defense played better against very average offenses. More importantly, last year you said that at 18th, the defense needs to play a little better and AB needs to eliminate the fumbles and other mistakes for the Saints to go to the playoffs. Neither happened. In fact, both got worse (at least AB\'s numbers this year were worse in nearly every category). Now, surprise, surprise, you\'ve managed to find a reason that everyone deserves to stay.

How much you wanna bet that if the Saints start next season flat, if the defense plays poorly, you\'ll admit you were wrong, but by year end have a new and exciting reason why this year is different? Again...

Same... Old... Saints...
 

The Saints fan\'s motto \"There\'s always next year.\"

Same... Old... Saints...
 

If Haz & Co. haven\'t already, they should be sending a thank-you note to Mora and the Falclowns for mailing it in. By doing so, they allowed the Saints to put together a little mini-run down the stretch, thus allowing everyone a shot at keeping their job. I would have been more impressed by the 4-game winning streak if it did not include a victory over a resting Atlanta club who was trying to prevent injuries to any of their main players. The bottom-line is that we didn\'t make it anyway, due to poor performances earlier in the year against lesser opponents. These losses are the ones Haz should be held accountable for. He should also be held accountable for two season-ending melt-downs prior to this year. And, yes, I do believe that his reluctance, or refusal I should say, to make a change at the QB position has caused this team to underachieve and stay at the mediocre level over and over and over and over again.

Same... Old... Saints...
 

I disagree. Thats simply an excuse for winning.
We were one 1st down from beating them in Atlanta with a healthy Vick and Crumpler. So we beat them in New Orleans without Vick. So What? Pehaps with Vick and Crumpler in we turn it up another notch and blow them out.
I\'m tired of the double standard.
When we lose, no excuses, we just suck.
When we win, we get excuses for the other team.
We would have beaten them with Vick in anyway. Mora probably didn\'t want his A-team to get their asss whipped right before the play-offs so he kept Vick out as a handy little excuse.

Same... Old... Saints...
 

Danno, let me put it another way. To me, the win was too little, too late, against a team who obviously was not playing with all their weapons. Had we have won a few games earlier against teams we should have been able to win against, then possibly the Atlanta game would have had more meaning, not only for us, but for Atlanta, also. This would have forced them to play their regulars, because the division title would have still been in question. By wasting winning opportunities earlier in the year, we allowed them to coast down the stretch. Again, this is what the coaching staff should be held accountable for.

Same... Old... Saints...
 

Regardless of what happened this year, you have to look at the big picture. I mean, imagine this scenario:

You\'re Tom Benson. You just fired your head coach and you\'re looking for a new head coach. In your first interview, WhoDat comes strolling through the door. Dat says:

\"As head coach of the Saints I plan on amassing the most talent this team has ever had.\"

Good so far.

\"However, I do plan on strategically neglecting a few key positions year in and year out.\"

Uhh....

\"The true strength of this team right now, as I take the reigns, is it\'s offense. In 5 years, they\'ll be dead last in the NFL.\"

What?

\"I plan to mark my era with inconsistency, false promises, and underachievement. Five years from now this team will be 8-8 and won\'t have improved much at all!!\"

What the hell are you talking about?

\"We won\'t win more than one playoff game, but I will make sure that the team and its players show just enough flashes of greatness to keep the fans hoping and make them forget about all of the totally boneheaded underacheiving that we\'ll normally put out on the field.\"

So, do I get the job?

Now imagine that I promise far more and acheive what I just said. Do I get to keep my job? Does it really matter what I do in my last 4 games?

Same... Old... Saints...
 

WhoDat, that\'s just what I imagine when I see someone pitching for a head coaching job and getting the results we have gotten from Haslett. I think, what if Haslett said THIS was how it was gonna be for 5 years. One best year ever for the Saints, and then fall into mediocrity so deep fans not only ACCEPT it, but some WELCOME it for fear of getting worse. Egads.

Same... Old... Saints...
 

Think about it - what\'s the worst that could happen. The Saints could be a bad team and look foolish out there every Sunday. Uh... so where\'s the scary part? B/c I saw that THIS YEAR.

Same... Old... Saints...
 

Actually, the question I have is:

Are the Saints actually getting better under Haslett?

Given the defense was on pace to be one of the historically worst in history this year, I\'m not sure that we\'re moving in the right direction. Key players are getting old or overpaid and I don\'t see us any closer to even making the playoffs, much less going past the wild card round.

Without some major moves in free agency, I\'m not holding out much hope for this team next year.