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What does AB have?

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; May I add my thoughts? I think that even though AB has his problems (throwing as he falls back and that he rarely moves up in the pocket - to name 2) when he is on fire and the team ...

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Old 01-09-2003, 06:12 PM   #11
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What does AB have?

May I add my thoughts?

I think that even though AB has his problems (throwing as he falls back and that he rarely moves up in the pocket - to name 2) when he is on fire and the team is playing with intensity, he is one of the best in today\'s game. Even this year he has made some amazing throws, but they\'ve all been in the \"big\" games.

Some of you may remember how in 2000 and 2001 he seemed to get off to slow starts in games, but things really seemed to click in the second half. We didn\'t see that too much in 2002, but I think that is going to be his legacy....winning games in the fourth quarter. I\'m not saying he\'ll be the greatest ever and I wont rule out Jake as a good QB, but like I said when AB is on it, there are few better in the league.

AB seems to be able to read defenses efficiently, he can definitely get the ball down field, and I\'ll go so far as to say that he does have \"touch\" he just didn\'t show it much this year. What AB needs is an o-line that plays with intensity and to be more like a boss or a \"field general\" as they say, than just one of the guys which is what I think he wants to be.

Sorry for the long rants...I just can\'t seem to express myself in a non-lengthy manner.
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Old 01-09-2003, 06:37 PM   #12
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What does AB have?

Scotty, I started this thread for that reason - to get peoples\' thoughts on Brooks.

I agree with some of the things you said, and I disagree with others. I don\'t think Brooks has much touch and I really haven\'t seen him throw the deep ball yet.

My biggest knocks on him though aren\'t his tangibles. Certainly he looks like the prototypical quarterback of the future. However, he doesn\'t have those things that you can measure like smarts, natural leadership, and that fire, that need to win.

Now, I don\'t know if what Brooks needs to learn can be taught. If it\'s a matter of inexperience or instinct. But I do think he hasn\'t progressed from a smarts standpoint very far since he came to New Orleans. He still makes dangerous throws, stupid mistakes, etc.

The leadership issue is also a big one. I\'ve been in the President and/or a variety of Chief Officer roles throughout my life, and the one thing that I\'ve learned from my experience is that leadership cannot effectively be taught. You can teach a person to be a better manager, but not a better leader. I think that that\'s something that he\'s not going to get a lot better at over time. That\'s just my opinion though.

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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Old 01-09-2003, 09:35 PM   #13
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What does AB have?

WhoDat, I agree that AB is lacking in some of the intangibles that make good QB\'s great, but I must disagree about Aaron not being a smart QB. Now don\'t get me wrong, AB has ticked me off many, many times over the past couple of years with some of his decisions, but I refer to smart in the sense that he seems to be able to read D\'s pretty good - not that he always makes smart throws. The Saints would not have gone 6-1 against the teams we beat if Aaron wasn\'t.

I believe the clue to why we failed so miserably down the stretch can be found in analyzing the only game we lost of the first 7. How the heck could the Lions beat us? Don\'t blame AB. He wasn\'t the TE that was trying to set an NFL record for dropped passes! Obviously, the team wasn\'t fired up to play the Lions - as was the problem whenever we played a lower caliber team. I blame the lines on both sides of the ball for appearing to want the afternoon off when we played these teams that we should have easily beaten.

But then again, that is where I lay blame on AB, too. Not all of the blame, of course, but his leadership must include calling out players - especially on offense - who are not performing up to the appropriate level. To me he seems too laid back for this. Fortunately though, that is something that he can grow into, and leadership techniques CAN be learned. His lack of leadership might also be traced to an inferiority complex brought on by his youth when he\'s around those who are older than he is. This should certainly pass as the years go by and his polite and friendly personallity which may be hindering him nowl become an asset as he takes on more of a fatherly role with new players.

We should remember that although Aaron was hurt, he had still put the team in the position to beat Carolina and our other offensive stars dropped the ball. Now I admit that I didn\'t get to watch the last game, but the highlights showed a WR fumbling at the opponents 20 and a WR on another drive near the end of the game dropping what would have been a TD pass. There\'s at least 10 points on the WR\'s hands not Aaron\'s. Plenty to win the game.
If I am wrong about the way things went in the game please explain it, but remember the drops and the fumble. And take an honest look at it. Sometimes you guys in here sound like a bunch lawyers who decide their going to argue for one side or the other and it doesn\'t matter what anybody else says. If there is a point to discussing anything it is to attempt to come to a concensus on the problem and how to fix it. later
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Old 01-10-2003, 08:30 AM   #14
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What does AB have?

I just don\'t see Aaron being a smart guy. I don\'t see him reading defenses well. If he did, you would see more audibles... which he rarely does. You would see more quick slants or quick outs being hit b/c he stepped up to the line and IDed the hot route.

I don\'t know if you were around or nota couple of weeks ago, but I posted a little insight into Brooks. I certainly don\'t know him. I know what I read and what I see. However, I do know a couple of doctors over at West Jeff that have worked for the Saints. Both who have met and worked with and around Aaron said the same thing about him. He has the intellect and emotional maturity of a ten year old.

I think his actions on and off the field echo this. When he was hurt, did he have the headphones on talking to the booth, standing next to McCarthy or Haslett and cheering on Delhomme? No, he was goofing off on the bench as far away from the field as he could get. Haslett and the coaching staff coddle him, to protect his fragile ego. I don\'t see him working hard. I don\'t hear reports about how hard he works. Not even from Haslett. I just don\'t think he has the smarts, leadership, or fire to be successful.

Don\'t get me wrong, I\'d rather have Brooks than the Billy Joes or Chris (wink, wink) Everett. I\'m just really concerned that the coaching staff was so quick to label Brooks our franchise player. The guy who we\'re building our offense around. I don\'t think he has proved he is worth that kind of respect, and unfortunately, never will. I wish that the coaching staff would evaluate Brooks just like they do evey other player. I don\'t think that happens. Brooks is given a pass far too often... which also will ultimately hurt his development.

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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Old 01-10-2003, 09:44 AM   #15
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What does AB have?

Thank you ScottyRo. Thank you very much. Because I\'ve been loyal to AB to a fault, I admit, I\'ve taken quite a bit of heat in here...particularly from two posters who refuse to look at anything other than AB as a problem. I\'ve never tried to say he was Montana, but I have tried to post stats that indicate he\'s a good QB...one that has the ability to grow and become even better. Lesser QB\'s have one the Superbowl for sure. Why is it so hard to think Brooks couldn\'t do it?

In fact AB did have the Saints in the position to win not only the last Carolina game, but the Vikings game too. We lost to the Flacons when Duece and Aaron put the team in a position to win. We all know what happend in that game. You\'re correct about the Detroit game too. Winning those 3 games alone, none of which can be hung on Brooks, and the Saints are sittin\' pretty aren\'t they? Fact of the matter is I can think of one game, the Cleveland game, that I could hang on AB being the reason we lost, and in that game he was a QB without a rushing attack.

Numbers can be posted \'til we\'re old and our fingers won\'t type anymore, and regardless there are some people who persist with their \"mob mentality\". Like gator says, it\'s all in fun, and what goes around will most definately come back around.

I suppose my real frustration is that those that are so interested in seeing AB benched or traded (and at any cost mind you) and would love to see Haz fired are the same ones who seemingly refuse to see any other fault with this team. They can\'t remember (or choose to forget) the dropped balls or fumbles. They\'ve forgotten those wide open lanes blitzers came through...especially late in the season. They\'re quick to point out how other teams compare, but they won\'t accept it when someone does that in favor of Brooks or Haz. They would have you believe a new coach and Jake Delhomme would bring us the football glory we all so rightly deserve. Ahhh, if it were only that easy huh?

I understand ANY Saints fan\'s frustrations. We\'ve been through more than enough with this team since what, 1967? Hell, I wasn\'t even alive in 1967, but this team breaks my heart year after year. While I know how much it hurts, I do my best to understand that winning the Superbowl is a difficult task. So many things have to come together...it almost has to be magical. I know it takes good players and good coaches, and I also know it takes a little luck. Luck is something the Saints have never had much of, but I believe it\'s coming, cause like Gator says, what goes around comes around.

I wonder how many Saints fans who aren\'t sportswriters or radio talk show hosts, of those of us who aren\'t paid or don\'t benefit from creating controversy, those of us with level heads, actually think Haz should be fired. As for me, I\'ll say again that I think he\'s done a damned fine job with the offense...especially considering what he started with a few short years ago. As for me, I\'d like to see him have the same oppurutnity with the defense. I see the core of the offense under contract for a few years, so I believe Jim will turn his attention to the Defense, and I believe he\'ll have similar success on that side of the ball.

I know people are pist at Jim for playing Brooks at the end. It\'s debatable as to whether or not the team had a better change to win with Brooks or Jake considering the injury. We can tell \'em Brooks had the team in the position to win, and that dropped passes and fumbles are ultimately what cost us the game, but I assue you they won\'t have any of it. The thing is the injury had little to do with people calling for Jake. These are the same people who were calling for Jake when the team was 6-1. These people will have us belive they knew something about both Jake and Brooks that Haz didn\'t know. I can\'t help but question that since, to my knowledge none of these folks are employed by the Saints. These people will tip their hat to another teams QB and allow an injury as an excuse, but they won\'t give their own starting QB the same nod. Why is that? These are the people that insist we qualify AB\'s obvious talent and ability in one word.

Ultimately, those that want Jake want him because they want him. They want Haz fired because they\'re pist at him for not playing Jake. There are exceptions I\'m sure, but it all comes back to that really. There will be no \"reaching a consensus\" with \'em because they don\'t wanna reach one. I\'ve said several times that if Jake were to do what he\'s been unable to do thus far, which is win the starting job (he\'s had 5 years and lesser QBs than Aaron to overcome) then I\'m behind him 110% because I want this team to win. The FACT is he hasn\'t. They hate Brooks for it and they blame Haz for it. You can lead a horse to water, but you can\'t make him drink.

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Old 01-10-2003, 10:38 AM   #16
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What does AB have?

Saintfan, sice we have regained some level of civility, and since much of your post was obviously aimed at me, I would like to respond. First, please don\'t put words in my mouth or claim that I have said things that I simply haven\'t said.

True, I called for Jake even when the Saints were 6-1. True, I think he is a better fit for this team. True, I am not a coach and I don\'t make the decisions.

I don\'t want Haslett fired because he didn\'t play Jake Delhomme. That\'s ridiculous. I do not have a lot of faith in his coaches. Coaches like Venturi, who you have fervently said needs to go. Coaches like McCarthy, who, if I am not mistaken, you attacked for poor play selection and the inability to adapt and change througout a game and/or season.

Haslett hired those guys. Haslett is sticking with those guys. Haslett is the leader who went out and made a ton of off-season moves to insure this team had veteran leadership and didn\'t collapse again this year. But it did. The great coaches. The Jimmy Johnsons, the Bill Parcels, etc. all took bad teams and made them legitimate contenders quickly.

I thought Haslett was one of those guys after his first year. I thought that finally the Saints had found a good one. The difference here is that with those other coaches, their teams got better each year. They improved each year. They didn\'t regress. And within four years they got to the Super Bowl.

Now, I said next year is make or break for Haslett. It his fourth year. This team needs to get better in a huryy. If they don\'t, then HE SHOULD BE FIRED. Because this whle idea of \"building a franchise\" is somewhat obsolete in this league. Don\'t get me wrong, you should go for broke in one year... but, in an era where teams go from worst to first every single year, you cannot keep looking out to some future date. At some point you have to start saying things need to happen now!

As for Brooks. You act as if I am the only person that feels this way. I\'ve told you that I have insights from people who know and have worked with the man. Do you know anyoen that has worked with Aaron Brooks? Hokie Gajan, a hometown favorite said on the air that Brooks is not the QB to lead the Saints to a Super Bowl. He\'s got no credibility huh?

Did receivers drop balls? Yes. Did the line play worse towards the end of the year then it did in the beginning? Somewhat, but I wouldn\'t say it was significantly worse. Did Brooks play significantly worse in the last 4 1/2 games this year than he did in the first 11 1/2? I leave you to answer that one. It\'s already been answered a hundred times, but I\'d like to see if you are willing to put even the slightest amount of blame on Brooks, or if he is truly infalable in your eyes.

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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Old 01-10-2003, 10:40 AM   #17
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What does AB have?

Gatorman, understand that I\'m a fan of Jake. I didn\'t think we needed Jeff Blake. I thought Jake should have been given the chance. I thought that after he beat Dallas in the Dome a few years ago. I LOVE the guy. My brother has worked out with him in Lake Charles a few times. He\'s well spoken, he smart, and I\'ll go so far as to say I sure as hell hope we can keep him. I have no doubt he has what it takes to start in the NFL...none whatsoever, and I\'d argure that point with anyone.

Is AB top 5? Probably not. Not yet anyway. I think I said top 5 in 4 of the 8 categories WhoDat posted. I will say I think he\'s one of the top QB\'s in the league, but if I say top 5 or top 10 then there are two people who for sure will come in a ask me to list \'em. Then they\'d raise hell because I had him 9th instead of 10th. Why bother. I\'d give him a better ranking than Vick, thats for sure. I\'ll take issue with WhoDat on that one. I mean, if you want a QB that can\'t read a defense but can rush better than your running back then Vick\'s the guy, but I\'m not speaking of one of your posts. Someone else brightly called Vick one of the leagues \"elite\" simply because he made the popularity contest...ummm...I mean probowl. Vick is a \"special\" player to be sure, but an \"elite\" QB he is not...perhaps some day, but not yet. Not so fast.

Let me say I have no doubt that Jake could (and probably will) start for someone. I\'ll also say I don\'t think he has the tools Brooks has, and I don\'t think the Saints would have been any better off this past year had Jake come in at 6-1 or for the last game. This team\'s problems go beyond the QB position. I don\'t mean to say or insinuate that Jake \"isn\'t good enough\" to start. My point is that in 5 years he\'s failed to crack the lineup, and neither Brooks nor Haz has been here that long. No reason to player hate Brooks or Jim...I just don\'t understand why that\'s so difficult to see?

Also, I don\'t start many threads in here. I have done my level best to back Brooks because I think he\'s being unfairly held totally responsible for every problem this team has encountered. It\'s frustrating to see him throw a laser over the middle only to watch the receiver drop the damn ball...and then to come in here the next day to all these posts blaming him. Yeah, he made some terrible throws this past year, and a lot of \'em came after the injury, but he made some damn good ones too. He made some throws I know Jake doesn\'t have the arm to make. Not many in the NFL can gun it like he can. Sure he needs to develop touch. There are other aspects of his game that need work too, but anyone that denies his potential has to have a motive. Have you seen anyone in here Bash Brooks that didn\'t want Jake? See, it\'s not about Brooks really, it\'s about Jake. He\'s local. Thats not to say he isn\'t worthy, but if he wants the job as bad as certain people want him to have it, then let him go out and win it this summer. I promise I\'ll cheer just as loud for him as I have for Brooks. I just don\'t see it happening. In your heart, do you?

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Old 01-10-2003, 12:11 PM   #18
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What does AB have?

I don\'t see it happening either, but you\'re assuming that the playing field is level. It\'s not. I don\'t \"bash\" Brooks because I want Jake. My motive is not to have Jake somehow inserted into the lineup.

My hope is that the Saints will find a better quarterback. In my opinion, there are a good number of guys out there who are better than Brooks. Likewise, there are a good number of young guys with just as much, if not more, potential. Are all of them available to the Saints? No. Are some? Probably. The point I am making is the same, even if J.T. is our back up. Brooks is not the right guy for this Saints team. He doesn\'t fit the type of offense that they are trying to run. He is too selfish to not be considered one of the weapons on a team full of them. He can\'t lead, and he isn\'t that bright.

I haven\'t seen anything that says Brooks reads defenses better than Vick. Both say that they have to improve in that area. Is Vick a bigger passing threat right now? No. Can he be? Yes. Did VIck lead a team with fewer weapons to a better record and a playoff win? Yes. But that\'s neither here nor there.

I think the thing that is most amazing to me is the perception. Saintfan says, \"It\'s frustrating to see him throw a laser over the middle only to watch the receiver drop the damn ball.\" On average... average... what where there, two dropped passes a game? We know Brooks averaged at least one interception a game and probably at least 1/2 a fumble. Are you telling me that he didn\'t throw at least one or two more dangerous/stupid passes in a game?! But the thing that pops out at you is that recievers are dropping the ball... not that Brooks is being dangerous or careless or stupid. How and why is that?

And let me ask you this, compared to the rest of the league, what\'s better, our receiving corp or our quarterback? Right now, today.

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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Old 01-10-2003, 12:21 PM   #19
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What does AB have?

And let me just clear one thing up. Aaron Brooks finished in the top ten in four categories amongst the 30 QBs in the league with the most passing yards. They were:

Touchdowns - he was second. That\'s a big one and great to see.

Pass Attempts - he was 9th. I don\'t know how throwing more than 21 other quarterbacks makes you better than them.

Yards - he was also 9th. To me, if you throw more than 21 other quarterbacks you should have more yards, especially with our receiving corp, but again. I\'ll give him credit and say that great to see also.

Interceptions - he was 10th. This is not good. This is bad. That means that only 9 guys in the league threw MORE interceptions than he did. Bad thing, but then again he throws more often, so by my own logic, it goes to reason.

Here are a couple of bad things. Even though he threw the 9th most passes he completed the 16th most passes. That gave him the 27th best completion percentage. That\'s really bad. He also had the 20th ranked passer rating... meaning 19 other quarterbacks were more effiecient than he was. You be the judge on these.

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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Old 01-10-2003, 12:37 PM   #20
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What does AB have?

Well, whodat, you\'re assuming the playing field isn\'t level. I\'m guessing Hokie told you it wasn\'t level huh? You can compare all you want, but you don\'t wanna hear it when I do the same. By the way, Brooks threw 15 INT\'S this year...that\'s not an average of 1 per game. Even MY crappy math is better than yours, but I digress. But I will say that one of the guys that threw more INT\'S than Brooks was Favorite Son Brett Farve...ooops, I forgot, you can compare Brooks with others, but the rest of us can\'t...sorry. I forgot the rule. My bad.

The point is that there is NO WAY IN HELL you\'ll EVER give Brooks any credit...you\'re too damn bullheaded. The fact is the Saints would be in so much dissarray if you were in charge, and I\'m glad to know that you\'re not. If you were calling the shots the personell would change every year. There would be no potential for players to grow together. There would never be anything other than one year contracts, and our sallary cap would be in terrible shape, because you don\'t believe in putting your faith in someone and letting them grow. At least that\'s the vibe I\'m gettin\'.

Might I suggest that you stop trying to convince me how terrible Brooks is. I promise to return the favor in kind and stop trying to convince you he isn\'t so terrible. Fighting this fight with you just isn\'t worth the energy. I\'ll side with Gatorman (whom I disagree with, but have respect for because he\'s willing to see that there might, just might be another side to it and because he\'s willing to concede the fact that there are other problems) and suggest we just move on. I\'d have better luck turning Saddam Christian.

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