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this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Gator....there is no right or wrong. I guess regarding how the Bucs built,you are correct on defense(draft),but on offense(non-draft). Horn deserves $$$,he has been consistent and turned out to be one of the biggest receivers in the league. Deuce was ...

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Old 03-11-2003, 08:55 PM   #31
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Uh Oh

Gator....there is no right or wrong. I guess regarding how the Bucs built,you are correct on defense(draft),but on offense(non-draft). Horn deserves $$$,he has been consistent and turned out to be one of the biggest receivers in the league. Deuce was a good draft choice. Jake is gone,we will rue that. Hand has turned out to be a slug,see ya.
Gator, listen two key free agent acquisitions on defense,we still have our picks. We can supplement with those,Stallworth comes to mind,I know he was injured alot,but Horn was the go to guy,Stallworth an added bonus, a supplement if you will.
This league is built around free agency. If you draft this year,there are no guarantees they will even be around to become productive.

Don't want 'em to get your goat....don't show 'em where it's hid
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Old 03-12-2003, 02:33 AM   #32
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ok guys, let me see if i can clarify things, im not exactly sure how it goes when a player retires but i believe that... for example a player signs a 10 year deal worth 20 million wit a 10 million signing bonus, that means that the signin bonus, which is given to a player upfront, is spread out over the life of the contract (10 year contract with 10 million bonus = 1 mill a year) + (10 years, 10 million salary = 1 mill a year) so together they are 2 mill a year, but if a player retires they wont pay the salary part of the deal b/c he will not be performing his \"services\" but he will still count against the cap by the signing bonus, b/c it was pro-rated for the full contract, so this player would count 1 mill/ year against the cap for the rest of the contract length i.e.
he retires after 5 years, he would count for 1 mill in cap room for the remaining 5 years

any ?s

the reason that he counts against the cap after retirement is b/c the signing bonus which was paid the min. he signed the original contract, is guarenteed

another example, kurt warner for the rams would have gotten a 6 mil roster bonus if he was on the roster this year, the rams didnt cut him so now he will count at least 6 mill against their cap room this year

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Old 03-12-2003, 03:11 AM   #33
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i was foolin around and i found site that i had used before, it will explain to you anything and everything u ever wanted to know about the salary cap

http://askthecommish.com/Articles/capanomics2.htm

oh and i was previously wrong about the retirement-signing bonus statement.

In most cases, if a player retires, the remaining signing bonus that has not been included in salary “accelerates⠀? and is included in that year’s team salary. Thus, the team will take an immediate salary cap hit of the remaining signing bonus.

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Old 03-12-2003, 08:08 AM   #34
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Thanks Pak. That\'s how I understood it to work. So if we\'re signing Horn to a contract extension, we can give him a smaller signing bonus (i.e. $1.5 mill) and a larger salary that hopefully will be backloaded and incentive laden. Right?
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Old 03-12-2003, 10:31 AM   #35
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You\'re crazy!! Stallworth and Pathon\'s numbers combine didn\'t equal Horn\'s alone in any category other than touchdowns. If Horn wants guaranteed money, give it to him. I certainly do not want to put words in your mouth Gator, but I am guessing that part of your feelings for Horn are based on his mouth and flashy (some people might call him a showboat) ways. As a player he is as solid a wideout as you can ask for.

I mean, are you happy about the Gandy signing? Gandy\'s as old as Horn and we just gave him a 6 year $30 million contract. What about Ambrose? Ambrose is older. Give Horn $1.5 million signing and 5 years $15 million. I\'m not sure what top receiver money is, but I don\'t think it\'s much more than $3 mill a year. If Brooks is worth $5 mill a year than Horn is definitely worth $3 mill.

As for your Rogers idea - nice idea... never happen. Why would you want a rookie and second year receiver (who couldn\'t even go his entire first season without getting hurt)starting anyway? That\'s a recipe for disaster. Besides, if you won\'t pay Horn as a top receiver, how do you figure that we\'ll get the draft picks for him that we would need to trade up ahead of the Lions (who have the 2nd pick in the draft by the way!!) to get Rogers?

Pay Horn.

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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Old 03-12-2003, 10:34 AM   #36
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PS - is there another receiver that has been or will be available in say a two year period from today that went to three consecutive Pro Bowls?
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Old 03-12-2003, 01:20 PM   #37
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I agree - great debate. And no mud-slinging... YOU IDIOT!

I agree with you about Horn not having the future that Deuce, Stallworth, Grant, Howard, etc. have. But, I think he\'s got three more good years in him. My thinking is that if you try to sign him early, maybe even during the season, while he\'s still under contract you probably get a better deal than if you wait until the end of his contract when teams get to start a bidding war for him. You know?

One thing that probably need to get deferred back to Pak is how signing a player under contract in-season affects the cap. Does it affect the current year\'s cap or the next. For example, if we extend Horn\'s contract after the season starts does it affect this year\'s cap situation? If not, then do that. Don\'t you think?

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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Old 03-12-2003, 01:40 PM   #38
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ok
signing a player during the season would effect this years cap, b/c it would actually be restructuring his contract actually say he is makin a base salary this year of 2.5 mill, he is countin 2.5 mil against this years cap, but by resignin durin the season or restructuring his current deal, lets say for example he signs a new deal 5 years 5 mill no signin bonus(not gonna happen but u know...) instead of counting 2.5 mil againts dis years cap, it would only be 1 mill.... that is Y most teams back load contracts b/c they can lower their base salaries for they current year and take a lesser salary cap hit which is also the reason want higher signing bonuses, b/c they get that money up front, would u sign a contract which pays u 1 mil this year 5 mill next year 10 mil the 3rd year, when there is no guerentee that u will see the 10 mill in the third year, if u dont get some money upfront? i dont think so, so players want high signing bonuses anything else?

my thoghts on this situation, i think we should sign joe to an extension i think he has at lease 3 good years left in him, he has performed well above expectations and i believe he needs to compensated, with at least a 5 year deal with a 6 mil signin bonus

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Old 03-12-2003, 02:32 PM   #39
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Hey Gator, I agree that re-signing our young talent down the road is going to be a problem. I said that earlier when we were debating the Pros and Cons of bringing in high paid free agents. No matter what, we will not resign all of our young talent. You\'re looking at Deuce, Stallworth, Bentley, Grant, Allen, Hodge, Craver, and Mitchell PLUS four or five draft picks this year. That\'s NOT including our slightly older players whose contracts will come due over the next few years.

My point is, that we\'re going to lose players. We lose good players every year (Ricky, Roaf, Glover, Johnson, Turley, Knight, Delhomme, Gowin). That\'s not going to stop any time soon. At some point you have to step up, pay your impact players and take a shot at a title. Otherwise you end up in a perpetual \"wait \'til next year\" cycle that makes you nothing more than a feeder team to the real contenders.

Yes, I know that signing big name players with backloaded contracts forces you to have a down-cycle a few years out, but at least you have a real shot now. The Saints are still going to have a down in a few years when all of these young stars want new contracts. At least we should get a title shot before that down, don\'t you think? The other option is to lose three stars for every two we add each year, like we\'re doing now, and we stay in this 7-9 to 9-7 range every single year. That\'s just as bad to me. Don\'t you think?

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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Old 03-12-2003, 06:20 PM   #40
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You guys still going, WhoDat agreed with me many posts ago,Gator disagreed with me many posts ago. My summation, keep our studs,Horn cannot be replaced with the same quality etc..... Pay money, we have been rebuilding since the start of the franchise. Free Agency doesn\'t allow you to hold younger players anyway. Play for now. Let\'s make a team now,not with half assed replacements like we have. Not with unproven draft picks, who rarely produce for a couple seasons. The cap will always be an issue, somehow the 49\'ers and Raiders, and I would say the Rams have avoided issues,maybe until now. They have had fairly successful programs. Buy a team. And when you let someone who is a perennial pro bowler go(Roaf)get something for him.

Don't want 'em to get your goat....don't show 'em where it's hid
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