I Want to Understand Why Gas Prices are So Damned High

saintfan · 03-09-2012, 06:24 PM

LOL.

Now THIS is a deep rabbit hole. Unfortunately it is not so easily explained by pointing the finger at one or the other of our up and out standing political parties.

I'd like to suggest to everyone that there is no shortage of oil. Read it again. There is NO SHORTAGE of oil. There is less now than there was 100 years ago of course, but supply has adequately paced demand and will continue to do so. There is plenty of untapped oil in the world when the liberals decide they need it.

And no, drilling more North American Oil isn't going to lower the price of a gallon of gas enough to make a difference. Who Dat Cat can relax. LOL

When you ask an 'industry expert', he or she will counter will all sorts of complications. And it is accurate to say there are more than a handful of variables that determine both the price of a barrel of oil and the price for a gallon of gasoline.

Here's the rub. Oil is a globally-traded commodity. It doesn't matter that the United States in fact EXPORTS a LOT of oil. It doesn't matter, in fact, that the United States IMPORTS MOST of it's oil from Canada. Oh yes. That is true. We get MOST of our oil from Canada. Our Next biggest? Mexico. Thaaaaats, rite.

Long range tankers have NO WHERE do drop oil in the United States with the lone exception of Louisiana. Yep. That's it. Smaller vessels bring it in from all over the world...but far less from the middle east than one might have been led to believe.

But that's really neither here nor there. The fact is the commodity is a global one and so, when Opec decides to have a tantrum everyone suffers, although not as much as Opec might wish. In fact Opec has FAR less control over the price of a gallon of gas than most believe. The power lies far from Iraq.

Did you know that when an oil company refines its gasoline, that the margin for profit for the oil company is, give or take, 80 cents a gallon? Bet most of you didn't know that. The media is stupid, or at least ignorant. It is expensive to locate and drill and transport and refine the stuff. Oil companies make a LOT of money. They spend a lot too...

Did you know that between federal and state taxes you're paying anywhere from 20 to 50 cents a gallon - maybe more, at the pump? Did you know it costs more to refine "summer" gas than fall and winter gas? Did you even know there was such a thing? "Summer" gas is refined to burn cleaner. Cleaner burning gas costs more to create. This is one of the reasons gas in California is more expensive than, say, Arkansas. Emission control out here is, well, out of control, but that's only semi-related.

So, we are all familiar with the real estate bubble. Something very similar happens with commodities. It's all a bet really. Speculators have created a gas 'bubble'. In fact many speculators involved in real estate a few years ago moved to the oil industry. You betcha Betsy...

Now you can blame the weak dollar, or Saudi Arabia who may very well want to cut its production as a means to make more money so it can squash a potential uprising or reward its people to prevent one all together. Yes, demand is higher in the summer and so prices typically (although not always because of a thousand other factors) rise accordingly.

There is also the issue of refineries. They are located in places where it is easy to get the oil to them, and of course these places are prone to mother nature's wrath from time to time, and when any one of them has to shut down because of a failure or a needed fix or upgrade then, well, that doesn't help. Being physically close to one is also beneficial if only in small amounts. This too is part of California's problem, and Hawaii's, and Alaska's, and so on.

But adding more refineries won't fix Wall Street, and Wall Street boys and girls is why you are currently paying 4 bucks a gallon and I'm in California paying 4.35 for freaking mid-grade.

Oh and that oil we get from Canada? It is uber-expensive to refine. Texas Intermediate, Dubai Crude, Brent Crude...all different. TI is the benchmark, but refining one is different than refining another. This all matters.

At the end of the day you can rightfully point your finger to any number of factors that in some way or other contribute to the increase or decrease in a gallon of gas. Remember though that speculators - the smarts ones - make money going up and going down. While many of the other factors that determine gas prices are in essence 'fixed', and by fixed I mean there are justifiable reasons for them, it is the Wall Street speculators who make the most difference. The fuel that pushes economies all over the world is subject to the many times knee-jerk reaction of Wall Street.

Should it be regulated? Absolutely. Is there a politician alive today with a pair big enough to do anything about it? Nope. Sorry.

skymike · 03-09-2012, 06:40 PM

The administration openly admitted this week that they are not seeking
to lower gas prices. High gas prices, they hope, will encourage
Americans to use alternative fuels. They're not even attempting to
hide this agenda. This doesnt come from anyone's editorial, this is
hard news this week.

SloMotion · 03-10-2012, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by skymike

The administration openly admitted this week that they are not seeking
to lower gas prices. High gas prices, they hope, will encourage
Americans to use alternative fuels. They're not even attempting to
hide this agenda. This doesnt come from anyone's editorial, this is
hard news this week.

Yeah, never mind there's no infrastructure to allow the general public access to alternative fuels. It's like putting the cart before the horse.

Just saw $3.99 for Regular Unleaded last night in my neck of the woods ... that's up .10/.15 in just the past few days.

saintfan · 03-10-2012, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by skymike

The administration openly admitted this week that they are not seeking
to lower gas prices. High gas prices, they hope, will encourage
Americans to use alternative fuels. They're not even attempting to
hide this agenda. This doesnt come from anyone's editorial, this is
hard news this week.

They pay well over 6 bucks a gallon in Europe. The 'lucky' folks in some places in Europe are paying just under 6 bucks a gallon.

SloMotion · 03-11-2012, 06:39 AM

Originally Posted by saintfan

They pay well over 6 bucks a gallon in Europe. The 'lucky' folks in some places in Europe are paying just under 6 bucks a gallon.

Across the river, Canadians are paying approx. $1.30CAN per litre, they also use an Imperial Gallon which is 4.5 litres/gallon as opposed to the US Gallon which is 3.78 litres/gallon. That translates into about $5.85 gallon. They've always had pretty high gas prices compared to us, but they get more gas per their gallon.

The reason gas prices have spiked so sharply is because of an implosion in the refinery capacity in the U.S., said Roger McKnight, a senior petroleum adviser with En-Pro International in Oshawa. Four refineries shut down in Philadelphia and a company that shipped a million barrels of oil a day to the U.S. from Europe filed for bankruptcy, McKnight said.

Read more: Windsor area gas prices predicted to hit $1.47

SmashMouth · 03-11-2012, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by SloMotion

Across the river, Canadians are paying approx. $1.30CAN per litre, they also use an Imperial Gallon which is 4.5 litres/gallon as opposed to the US Gallon which is 3.78 litres/gallon. That translates into about $5.85 gallon. They've always had pretty high gas prices compared to us, but they get more gas per their gallon.

Read more: Windsor area gas prices predicted to hit $1.47

yeah ... for sure... although there have been a couple of new refineries come online recently, there are too many older ones that need updating.. and we need some new ones too just to keep up with demand.

WHO_DAT_CAT · 03-14-2012, 10:13 PM

OK, Professor Oil, now I know I am dealing with someone with at least a cursory knowledge of the subject. Not bad. So, you are saying that Obama ISN'T the cause of high gas prices? Huh. I guess you are going to tell me he ISN'T a Muslim and that evolution is, scientifically speaking, fact. OK, maybe that's going too far.

As to the role of speculators, they only magnify the speed and size of the price movement, but not the direction. As your Econ 101 professor taught you, when demand outstrips supply.....price will go where? That's right, it will go up. Where have gasoline prices gone over the last 40 years?

Originally Posted by saintfan

I'd like to suggest to everyone that there is no shortage of oil. Read it again. There is NO SHORTAGE of oil. There is less now than there was 100 years ago of course, but supply has adequately paced demand and will continue to do so. There is plenty of untapped oil in the world when the liberals decide they need it.

Shame on you SaintFan for not telling these good people the truth. We are headed for higher and higher gasoline prices because consumption of oil is outstripping supply.

But, there are three main areas that you did not cover, which I have outlined here:

1. Peak Oil Happened in 2008

For all of you who know that oil is a finite natural resource, meet me at the next paragraph. For those of you who believe in biblical-based oil, please see this article and I'll pray for you.

In 2008, the world consumed 5.3 million barrels more oil than it produced. That was a shortfall equal to the daily oil production of Kuwait and Iraq combined. By 2035, the projected shortfall will be 12.1 million barrels per day -- which is more than all the oil produced by Saudi Arabia per day.

Here is a short video about peak oil that is clear and well produced. It was made by an investment company, Casey Research, who really doesn't care whether the world is running out of oil or not, they just want to sell their research to clients who are willing to pay for it.

Peak Oil News explains the issue.

Here is the Wikipedia reference for Peak Oil.

In 1956 M. King Hubbert, a geologist for Shell Oil, predicted the peaking of US Oil production would occur in the late 1960s.
Although derided by most in the industry he was correct. He was the first to assert that oil discovery, and therefore production, would follow a bell shaped curve over its life. After his success in forecasting the US peak, this analysis became known as the Hubbert's Peak.

The amount of oil discovered in the US has dropped since the late 1930s. 40 years later, US oil production had peaked, and has fallen ever since.

World discovery of oil peaked in the 1960s, and has declined since then. If the 40 year cycle seen in the US holds true for world oil production, that puts global peak oil production, right about now; after which oil becomes less available, and more expensive.

Originally Posted by saintfan

And no, drilling more North American Oil isn't going to lower the price of a gallon of gas enough to make a difference. Who Dat Cat can relax. LOL

Originally Posted by saintfan

Did you know that when an oil company refines its gasoline, that the margin for profit for the oil company is, give or take, 80 cents a gallon? Bet most of you didn't know that. The media is stupid, or at least ignorant. It is expensive to locate and drill and transport and refine the stuff. Oil companies make a LOT of money. They spend a lot too...

2. Oil Subsidies and Tax Loopholes for Oil Companies ( see documentation here )

In 2010, total oil, gas and coal subsidies to fossil fuel Big Energy was $15 BILLION. That's billion with a "B". Below are just a few of the tax credits and subsidies that these companies took advantage of. At the same time, ExxonMobil, in 2010 -- made $30.46 billion in profit!@!@#%^! That is just pure PROFIT.

If you are worried about the U.S. federal debt, call your US representatives and demand that these tax loopholes and subsidies to Big Fossil Fuel be CLOSED immediately.

Here are the tax credits for fossil fuel Big Energy:

Severance Tax Exemptions for Crude Oil
Development Credit for Certain Producers
Exclusion of Low-Volume Oil & Gas Wells

Income support
Exception from Passive Loss Limitation

Support for capital formation
Expensing of Exploration and Development Costs
Excess of Percentage over Cost Depletion
Temporary Expensing of Equipment for Refining
Aid to Small Refiners for EPA Capital Costs
Enhanced Oil Recovery Credit
Sales Tax Exemption for Oil & Gas Equipment
Qualified Capital Expenditure Credit
Alternative Credit for Exploration

Support for knowledge creation
Amortization of Geological Expenditure

Originally Posted by saintfan

So, we are all familiar with the real estate bubble. Something very similar happens with commodities. It's all a bet really. Speculators have created a gas 'bubble'. In fact many speculators involved in real estate a few years ago moved to the oil industry. You betcha Betsy...

But adding more refineries won't fix Wall Street, and Wall Street boys and girls is why you are currently paying 4 bucks a gallon ...

Originally Posted by saintfan

Oh and that oil we get from Canada? It is uber-expensive to refine.

Remember though that speculators - the smarts ones - make money going up and going down. ... it is the Wall Street speculators who make the most difference. The fuel that pushes economies all over the world is subject to the many times knee-jerk reaction of Wall Street.

Should it be regulated? Absolutely. Is there a politician alive today with a pair big enough to do anything about it?

Yes, there are politicians who fight Wall Street. Obama is one of them. But, that is a different topic.

3. Global Warming and Climate Change and why Big Fossil Fuel Companies need to pay for it

For those of you who believe that global warming is a hoax, please keep your head placed firmly up your @ss.

For the rest of you, there is a library amount of science that documents Global Warming and Climate Change. If you don't believe science, then, I wouldn't get on an airplane which uses the science of physics, chemistry, metallurgy and aerodynamics (among others) to make sure your plane stays in the sky.

If you need documentation of the fact of Global Warming, see these articles, the first of which impacts New Orleanians directly:

Rising Sea Levels Seen as Threat to Coastal U.S..

Global Warming from Wikipedia

The government of the Maldives just held a Cabinet Meeting underwater to highlight the dangers of climate change.

saintfan · 03-15-2012, 04:59 PM

OK, Professor Oil, now I know I am dealing with someone with at least a cursory knowledge of the subject. Not bad. So, you are saying that Obama ISN'T the cause of high gas prices? Huh. I guess you are going to tell me he ISN'T a Muslim and that evolution is, scientifically speaking, fact. OK, maybe that's going too far.

Oh I'm no professor oil, but as I have stated I know a great deal about it from personal experience and from talking to people who DO know a great deal about it. First hand. What I know wasn't filtered by a political party, a web site editor, or for the sake of all this is holy the NY Times. I could give a frogs fat green ass whether or not Obama is a Muslim. As for evolution, my view is actually extremely simple. It's my view and none of your business though. I only have those conversations with reasonable people.

As to the role of speculators, they only magnify the speed and size of the price movement, but not the direction. As your Econ 101 professor taught you, when demand outstrips supply.....price will go where? That's right, it will go up. Where have gasoline prices gone over the last 40 years?

Well, we have a revelation! Oil costs more now than it did 30 years ago! WOW! So does soda pop. Oh my GOD we're running out of Soda Pop! And Toothpaste! And Rubbers! Run for the hills. Interesting huh? The fundamental problem with you is that you believe demand is higher than supply. It is not. Believe whatever you wish - Stay on your current course of thinking and continue to be wrong. Fine by me.

Shame on you SaintFan for not telling these good people the truth. We are headed for higher and higher gasoline prices because consumption of oil is outstripping supply.

Nope. You can lead a horse to water...etc. That's what the liberal media wants you to believe. Congratulations! You're a member of the club! There is plenty of oil in the world and you yourself said as much in the "Condon" thread. You'd do better to pick a side and stick with it. That's what Pelosi does.

But, there are three main areas that you did not cover, which I have outlined here:

1. Peak Oil Happened in 2008

For all of you who know that oil is a finite natural resource, meet me at the next paragraph. For those of you who believe in biblical-based oil, please see this article and I'll pray for you.

In 2008, the world consumed 5.3 million barrels more oil than it produced. That was a shortfall equal to the daily oil production of Kuwait and Iraq combined. By 2035, the projected shortfall will be 12.1 million barrels per day -- which is more than all the oil produced by Saudi Arabia per day.

Here is a short video about peak oil that is clear and well produced. It was made by an investment company, Casey Research, who really doesn't care whether the world is running out of oil or not, they just want to sell their research to clients who are willing to pay for it.

Peak Oil News explains the issue.

Here is the Wikipedia reference for Peak Oil.

I did speak to it. Certainly there is less now than before. There will be less tomorrow than there is today. This has precisely nothing to do with what you're playing at the pump. Not a single thing. That is what we (some of us anyway) are discussing. Get on point will you?

In 1956 M. King Hubbert, a geologist for Shell Oil, predicted the peaking of US Oil production would occur in the late 1960s.
Although derided by most in the industry he was correct. He was the first to assert that oil discovery, and therefore production, would follow a bell shaped curve over its life. After his success in forecasting the US peak, this analysis became known as the Hubbert's Peak.

The amount of oil discovered in the US has dropped since the late 1930s. 40 years later, US oil production had peaked, and has fallen ever since.

World discovery of oil peaked in the 1960s, and has declined since then. If the 40 year cycle seen in the US holds true for world oil production, that puts global peak oil production, right about now; after which oil becomes less available, and more expensive.

You can copy and paste with the best of them. Word to the wise: Quote that stuff when you do. You know you fully understand a topic when you can put it in your own words. Know what I mean? The point you continue to fail to grasp (willingly I suspect) is that peak oil, supply and demand, all that crap, has NOTHING to do with why oil prices have increased dramatically over the last month. Let me try and drill this point home (pardon the pun). NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. Let that sink in and see if you can get back on topic.

2. Oil Subsidies and Tax Loopholes for Oil Companies ( see documentation here )

In 2010, total oil, gas and coal subsidies to fossil fuel Big Energy was $15 BILLION. That's billion with a "B". Below are just a few of the tax credits and subsidies that these companies took advantage of. At the same time, ExxonMobil, in 2010 -- made $30.46 billion in profit!@!@#%^! That is just pure PROFIT.

If you are worried about the U.S. federal debt, call your US representatives and demand that these tax loopholes and subsidies to Big Fossil Fuel be CLOSED immediately.

Here are the tax credits for fossil fuel Big Energy:

Severance Tax Exemptions for Crude Oil
Development Credit for Certain Producers
Exclusion of Low-Volume Oil & Gas Wells

Income support
Exception from Passive Loss Limitation

Support for capital formation
Expensing of Exploration and Development Costs
Excess of Percentage over Cost Depletion
Temporary Expensing of Equipment for Refining
Aid to Small Refiners for EPA Capital Costs
Enhanced Oil Recovery Credit
Sales Tax Exemption for Oil & Gas Equipment
Qualified Capital Expenditure Credit
Alternative Credit for Exploration

Support for knowledge creation
Amortization of Geological Expenditure

And herein lies the real agenda. You hate oil companies. I mean, I knew this before we got started, but here it is in the open. Let me ask, do you hate ALL corporations? I bet not. At the very least I bet you don't spend any time blaming them for all the worlds problems. See the "Condon" thread for your homework assignment. It is enough to say in a single post in a single thread "I LOATHE BIG OIL COMPANIES". We get it. You can save a little face that way and many people will agree with you. But when you embark on a mission to pin the price of a gallon of gas on the mean old oil companies you have a dig WAY deeper it seems than you are willing to do.

Yes, there are politicians who fight Wall Street. Obama is one of them. But, that is a different topic.

No. In fact it IS the topic. That you don't get it is unfortunate.

3. Global Warming and Climate Change and why Big Fossil Fuel Companies need to pay for it

For those of you who believe that global warming is a hoax, please keep your head placed firmly up your @ss.

For the rest of you, there is a library amount of science that documents Global Warming and Climate Change. If you don't believe science, then, I wouldn't get on an airplane which uses the science of physics, chemistry, metallurgy and aerodynamics (among others) to make sure your plane stays in the sky.

If you need documentation of the fact of Global Warming, see these articles, the first of which impacts New Orleanians directly:

Rising Sea Levels Seen as Threat to Coastal U.S..

Global Warming from Wikipedia

The government of the Maldives just held a Cabinet Meeting underwater to highlight the dangers of climate change.

And here's the motivation for your big oil hate. This is nothing new. You subscribe to a theory (and I'm sorry to tell you it's nothing more than that) wherein you are able to blame some big corporation for some possible worst case scenario. You need a fight. This is common among liberals - young ones especially. Most grow up and grow out of it. Some never see the light. They're the ones trying to ban toys from happy meals.

And do we really need to have the 'global warming' battle? Let me tell you how that will end. You will copy and paste a million articles from every source you can find (and there are many) and claim that this proves your point. You will have to copy and paste because you don't have the education to look at all the data it takes to make an intelligent assumption, and even if you did all you would be able to do is assume. This is all the scientists you're quoting are doing. I might be inclined to do the same, meeting every article with one that counters its point. This will go on and on and eventually the topic will be closed and you will have failed to prove a damn thing. Instead I will simply say "Prove it". Do it right now. Don't quote a theory. PROVE IT. You can't. Nobody can. Believe as you wish and sleep will at night, because your opinion of global warming doesn't affect me in any way. Matter of fact, I'd be willing to be my carbon footprint is less than yours. But who cares? The plant is going to be here when we die. It will be here for my kids and for their kids. The only problem I see is that my kids and their kids are going to have to pay for the liberal policies you support that are not sustainable. Let's just agree not to do that okay?

Back to topic - next time my ex bro-in-law or my father-in-law or my grandpa is in town, if you're interested, I'd be more than happy to set up a little meeting. Each works or worked in the oil industry as I've stated. Do you want to hear it from the horses mouth, or would you prefer to stay in the matrix? You can read this too if you'd like. http://money.howstuffworks.com/oil-s...gas-price1.htm You want the red pill or the blue one? Up to you little lady.

03-09-2012, 06:24 PM	#1
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	LOL. Now THIS is a deep rabbit hole. Unfortunately it is not so easily explained by pointing the finger at one or the other of our up and out standing political parties. I'd like to suggest to everyone that there is no shortage of oil. Read it again. There is NO SHORTAGE of oil. There is less now than there was 100 years ago of course, but supply has adequately paced demand and will continue to do so. There is plenty of untapped oil in the world when the liberals decide they need it. And no, drilling more North American Oil isn't going to lower the price of a gallon of gas enough to make a difference. Who Dat Cat can relax. LOL When you ask an 'industry expert', he or she will counter will all sorts of complications. And it is accurate to say there are more than a handful of variables that determine both the price of a barrel of oil and the price for a gallon of gasoline. Here's the rub. Oil is a globally-traded commodity. It doesn't matter that the United States in fact EXPORTS a LOT of oil. It doesn't matter, in fact, that the United States IMPORTS MOST of it's oil from Canada. Oh yes. That is true. We get MOST of our oil from Canada. Our Next biggest? Mexico. Thaaaaats, rite. Long range tankers have NO WHERE do drop oil in the United States with the lone exception of Louisiana. Yep. That's it. Smaller vessels bring it in from all over the world...but far less from the middle east than one might have been led to believe. But that's really neither here nor there. The fact is the commodity is a global one and so, when Opec decides to have a tantrum everyone suffers, although not as much as Opec might wish. In fact Opec has FAR less control over the price of a gallon of gas than most believe. The power lies far from Iraq. Did you know that when an oil company refines its gasoline, that the margin for profit for the oil company is, give or take, 80 cents a gallon? Bet most of you didn't know that. The media is stupid, or at least ignorant. It is expensive to locate and drill and transport and refine the stuff. Oil companies make a LOT of money. They spend a lot too... Did you know that between federal and state taxes you're paying anywhere from 20 to 50 cents a gallon - maybe more, at the pump? Did you know it costs more to refine "summer" gas than fall and winter gas? Did you even know there was such a thing? "Summer" gas is refined to burn cleaner. Cleaner burning gas costs more to create. This is one of the reasons gas in California is more expensive than, say, Arkansas. Emission control out here is, well, out of control, but that's only semi-related. So, we are all familiar with the real estate bubble. Something very similar happens with commodities. It's all a bet really. Speculators have created a gas 'bubble'. In fact many speculators involved in real estate a few years ago moved to the oil industry. You betcha Betsy... Now you can blame the weak dollar, or Saudi Arabia who may very well want to cut its production as a means to make more money so it can squash a potential uprising or reward its people to prevent one all together. Yes, demand is higher in the summer and so prices typically (although not always because of a thousand other factors) rise accordingly. There is also the issue of refineries. They are located in places where it is easy to get the oil to them, and of course these places are prone to mother nature's wrath from time to time, and when any one of them has to shut down because of a failure or a needed fix or upgrade then, well, that doesn't help. Being physically close to one is also beneficial if only in small amounts. This too is part of California's problem, and Hawaii's, and Alaska's, and so on. But adding more refineries won't fix Wall Street, and Wall Street boys and girls is why you are currently paying 4 bucks a gallon and I'm in California paying 4.35 for freaking mid-grade. Oh and that oil we get from Canada? It is uber-expensive to refine. Texas Intermediate, Dubai Crude, Brent Crude...all different. TI is the benchmark, but refining one is different than refining another. This all matters. At the end of the day you can rightfully point your finger to any number of factors that in some way or other contribute to the increase or decrease in a gallon of gas. Remember though that speculators - the smarts ones - make money going up and going down. While many of the other factors that determine gas prices are in essence 'fixed', and by fixed I mean there are justifiable reasons for them, it is the Wall Street speculators who make the most difference. The fuel that pushes economies all over the world is subject to the many times knee-jerk reaction of Wall Street. Should it be regulated? Absolutely. Is there a politician alive today with a pair big enough to do anything about it? Nope. Sorry. Danno, SapperSaint, foreverfan and 1 others like this.
	C'mon Man... Last edited by saintfan; 03-09-2012 at 06:30 PM..

03-10-2012, 08:05 AM	#3
SloMotion 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 6,776 Blog Entries: 15	Originally Posted by skymike The administration openly admitted this week that they are not seeking to lower gas prices. High gas prices, they hope, will encourage Americans to use alternative fuels. They're not even attempting to hide this agenda. This doesnt come from anyone's editorial, this is hard news this week. Yeah, never mind there's no infrastructure to allow the general public access to alternative fuels. It's like putting the cart before the horse. Just saw $3.99 for Regular Unleaded last night in my neck of the woods ... that's up .10/.15 in just the past few days. SapperSaint likes this.

03-10-2012, 12:26 PM	#4
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Originally Posted by skymike The administration openly admitted this week that they are not seeking to lower gas prices. High gas prices, they hope, will encourage Americans to use alternative fuels. They're not even attempting to hide this agenda. This doesnt come from anyone's editorial, this is hard news this week. They pay well over 6 bucks a gallon in Europe. The 'lucky' folks in some places in Europe are paying just under 6 bucks a gallon.

03-11-2012, 06:39 AM	#5
SloMotion 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 6,776 Blog Entries: 15	Originally Posted by saintfan They pay well over 6 bucks a gallon in Europe. The 'lucky' folks in some places in Europe are paying just under 6 bucks a gallon. Across the river, Canadians are paying approx. $1.30CAN per litre, they also use an Imperial Gallon which is 4.5 litres/gallon as opposed to the US Gallon which is 3.78 litres/gallon. That translates into about $5.85 gallon. They've always had pretty high gas prices compared to us, but they get more gas per their gallon. The reason gas prices have spiked so sharply is because of an implosion in the refinery capacity in the U.S., said Roger McKnight, a senior petroleum adviser with En-Pro International in Oshawa. Four refineries shut down in Philadelphia and a company that shipped a million barrels of oil a day to the U.S. from Europe filed for bankruptcy, McKnight said. Read more: Windsor area gas prices predicted to hit $1.47

03-11-2012, 10:24 AM	#6
SmashMouth I donated, did you? Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Mandeville, LA Posts: 38,967 Blog Entries: 29	Originally Posted by SloMotion Across the river, Canadians are paying approx. $1.30CAN per litre, they also use an Imperial Gallon which is 4.5 litres/gallon as opposed to the US Gallon which is 3.78 litres/gallon. That translates into about $5.85 gallon. They've always had pretty high gas prices compared to us, but they get more gas per their gallon. Read more: Windsor area gas prices predicted to hit $1.47 yeah ... for sure... although there have been a couple of new refineries come online recently, there are too many older ones that need updating.. and we need some new ones too just to keep up with demand.
	Last edited by SmashMouth; 03-11-2012 at 10:30 AM..

03-09-2012, 06:40 PM	#2
skymike E. Side Cholo Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: The Barrio, H-town Posts: 6,089	The administration openly admitted this week that they are not seeking to lower gas prices. High gas prices, they hope, will encourage Americans to use alternative fuels. They're not even attempting to hide this agenda. This doesnt come from anyone's editorial, this is hard news this week.

03-14-2012, 10:13 PM	#7
WHO_DAT_CAT 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: California - Bay Area Posts: 386	OK, Professor Oil, now I know I am dealing with someone with at least a cursory knowledge of the subject. Not bad. So, you are saying that Obama ISN'T the cause of high gas prices? Huh. I guess you are going to tell me he ISN'T a Muslim and that evolution is, scientifically speaking, fact. OK, maybe that's going too far. As to the role of speculators, they only magnify the speed and size of the price movement, but not the direction. As your Econ 101 professor taught you, when demand outstrips supply.....price will go where? That's right, it will go up. Where have gasoline prices gone over the last 40 years? Originally Posted by saintfan I'd like to suggest to everyone that there is no shortage of oil. Read it again. There is NO SHORTAGE of oil. There is less now than there was 100 years ago of course, but supply has adequately paced demand and will continue to do so. There is plenty of untapped oil in the world when the liberals decide they need it. Shame on you SaintFan for not telling these good people the truth. We are headed for higher and higher gasoline prices because consumption of oil is outstripping supply. But, there are three main areas that you did not cover, which I have outlined here: 1. Peak Oil Happened in 2008 For all of you who know that oil is a finite natural resource, meet me at the next paragraph. For those of you who believe in biblical-based oil, please see this article and I'll pray for you. In 2008, the world consumed 5.3 million barrels more oil than it produced. That was a shortfall equal to the daily oil production of Kuwait and Iraq combined. By 2035, the projected shortfall will be 12.1 million barrels per day -- which is more than all the oil produced by Saudi Arabia per day. Here is a short video about peak oil that is clear and well produced. It was made by an investment company, Casey Research, who really doesn't care whether the world is running out of oil or not, they just want to sell their research to clients who are willing to pay for it. Peak Oil News explains the issue. Here is the Wikipedia reference for Peak Oil. In 1956 M. King Hubbert, a geologist for Shell Oil, predicted the peaking of US Oil production would occur in the late 1960s. Although derided by most in the industry he was correct. He was the first to assert that oil discovery, and therefore production, would follow a bell shaped curve over its life. After his success in forecasting the US peak, this analysis became known as the Hubbert's Peak. The amount of oil discovered in the US has dropped since the late 1930s. 40 years later, US oil production had peaked, and has fallen ever since. World discovery of oil peaked in the 1960s, and has declined since then. If the 40 year cycle seen in the US holds true for world oil production, that puts global peak oil production, right about now; after which oil becomes less available, and more expensive. Originally Posted by saintfan And no, drilling more North American Oil isn't going to lower the price of a gallon of gas enough to make a difference. Who Dat Cat can relax. LOL Originally Posted by saintfan Did you know that when an oil company refines its gasoline, that the margin for profit for the oil company is, give or take, 80 cents a gallon? Bet most of you didn't know that. The media is stupid, or at least ignorant. It is expensive to locate and drill and transport and refine the stuff. Oil companies make a LOT of money. They spend a lot too... 2. Oil Subsidies and Tax Loopholes for Oil Companies ( see documentation here ) In 2010, total oil, gas and coal subsidies to fossil fuel Big Energy was $15 BILLION. That's billion with a "B". Below are just a few of the tax credits and subsidies that these companies took advantage of. At the same time, ExxonMobil, in 2010 -- made $30.46 billion in profit!@!@#%^! That is just pure PROFIT. If you are worried about the U.S. federal debt, call your US representatives and demand that these tax loopholes and subsidies to Big Fossil Fuel be CLOSED immediately. Here are the tax credits for fossil fuel Big Energy: Severance Tax Exemptions for Crude Oil Development Credit for Certain Producers Exclusion of Low-Volume Oil & Gas Wells Income support Exception from Passive Loss Limitation Support for capital formation Expensing of Exploration and Development Costs Excess of Percentage over Cost Depletion Temporary Expensing of Equipment for Refining Aid to Small Refiners for EPA Capital Costs Enhanced Oil Recovery Credit Sales Tax Exemption for Oil & Gas Equipment Qualified Capital Expenditure Credit Alternative Credit for Exploration Support for knowledge creation Amortization of Geological Expenditure Originally Posted by saintfan So, we are all familiar with the real estate bubble. Something very similar happens with commodities. It's all a bet really. Speculators have created a gas 'bubble'. In fact many speculators involved in real estate a few years ago moved to the oil industry. You betcha Betsy... But adding more refineries won't fix Wall Street, and Wall Street boys and girls is why you are currently paying 4 bucks a gallon ... Originally Posted by saintfan Oh and that oil we get from Canada? It is uber-expensive to refine. Remember though that speculators - the smarts ones - make money going up and going down. ... it is the Wall Street speculators who make the most difference. The fuel that pushes economies all over the world is subject to the many times knee-jerk reaction of Wall Street. Should it be regulated? Absolutely. Is there a politician alive today with a pair big enough to do anything about it? Yes, there are politicians who fight Wall Street. Obama is one of them. But, that is a different topic. 3. Global Warming and Climate Change and why Big Fossil Fuel Companies need to pay for it For those of you who believe that global warming is a hoax, please keep your head placed firmly up your @ss. For the rest of you, there is a library amount of science that documents Global Warming and Climate Change. If you don't believe science, then, I wouldn't get on an airplane which uses the science of physics, chemistry, metallurgy and aerodynamics (among others) to make sure your plane stays in the sky. If you need documentation of the fact of Global Warming, see these articles, the first of which impacts New Orleanians directly: Rising Sea Levels Seen as Threat to Coastal U.S.. Global Warming from Wikipedia The government of the Maldives just held a Cabinet Meeting underwater to highlight the dangers of climate change.
	Did I mention that California is full of generous, forgiving people?

03-15-2012, 04:59 PM	#8
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	OK, Professor Oil, now I know I am dealing with someone with at least a cursory knowledge of the subject. Not bad. So, you are saying that Obama ISN'T the cause of high gas prices? Huh. I guess you are going to tell me he ISN'T a Muslim and that evolution is, scientifically speaking, fact. OK, maybe that's going too far. Oh I'm no professor oil, but as I have stated I know a great deal about it from personal experience and from talking to people who DO know a great deal about it. First hand. What I know wasn't filtered by a political party, a web site editor, or for the sake of all this is holy the NY Times. I could give a frogs fat green ass whether or not Obama is a Muslim. As for evolution, my view is actually extremely simple. It's my view and none of your business though. I only have those conversations with reasonable people. As to the role of speculators, they only magnify the speed and size of the price movement, but not the direction. As your Econ 101 professor taught you, when demand outstrips supply.....price will go where? That's right, it will go up. Where have gasoline prices gone over the last 40 years? Well, we have a revelation! Oil costs more now than it did 30 years ago! WOW! So does soda pop. Oh my GOD we're running out of Soda Pop! And Toothpaste! And Rubbers! Run for the hills. Interesting huh? The fundamental problem with you is that you believe demand is higher than supply. It is not. Believe whatever you wish - Stay on your current course of thinking and continue to be wrong. Fine by me. Shame on you SaintFan for not telling these good people the truth. We are headed for higher and higher gasoline prices because consumption of oil is outstripping supply. Nope. You can lead a horse to water...etc. That's what the liberal media wants you to believe. Congratulations! You're a member of the club! There is plenty of oil in the world and you yourself said as much in the "Condon" thread. You'd do better to pick a side and stick with it. That's what Pelosi does. But, there are three main areas that you did not cover, which I have outlined here: 1. Peak Oil Happened in 2008 For all of you who know that oil is a finite natural resource, meet me at the next paragraph. For those of you who believe in biblical-based oil, please see this article and I'll pray for you. In 2008, the world consumed 5.3 million barrels more oil than it produced. That was a shortfall equal to the daily oil production of Kuwait and Iraq combined. By 2035, the projected shortfall will be 12.1 million barrels per day -- which is more than all the oil produced by Saudi Arabia per day. Here is a short video about peak oil that is clear and well produced. It was made by an investment company, Casey Research, who really doesn't care whether the world is running out of oil or not, they just want to sell their research to clients who are willing to pay for it. Peak Oil News explains the issue. Here is the Wikipedia reference for Peak Oil. I did speak to it. Certainly there is less now than before. There will be less tomorrow than there is today. This has precisely nothing to do with what you're playing at the pump. Not a single thing. That is what we (some of us anyway) are discussing. Get on point will you? In 1956 M. King Hubbert, a geologist for Shell Oil, predicted the peaking of US Oil production would occur in the late 1960s. Although derided by most in the industry he was correct. He was the first to assert that oil discovery, and therefore production, would follow a bell shaped curve over its life. After his success in forecasting the US peak, this analysis became known as the Hubbert's Peak. The amount of oil discovered in the US has dropped since the late 1930s. 40 years later, US oil production had peaked, and has fallen ever since. World discovery of oil peaked in the 1960s, and has declined since then. If the 40 year cycle seen in the US holds true for world oil production, that puts global peak oil production, right about now; after which oil becomes less available, and more expensive. You can copy and paste with the best of them. Word to the wise: Quote that stuff when you do. You know you fully understand a topic when you can put it in your own words. Know what I mean? The point you continue to fail to grasp (willingly I suspect) is that peak oil, supply and demand, all that crap, has NOTHING to do with why oil prices have increased dramatically over the last month. Let me try and drill this point home (pardon the pun). NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. Let that sink in and see if you can get back on topic. 2. Oil Subsidies and Tax Loopholes for Oil Companies ( see documentation here ) In 2010, total oil, gas and coal subsidies to fossil fuel Big Energy was $15 BILLION. That's billion with a "B". Below are just a few of the tax credits and subsidies that these companies took advantage of. At the same time, ExxonMobil, in 2010 -- made $30.46 billion in profit!@!@#%^! That is just pure PROFIT. If you are worried about the U.S. federal debt, call your US representatives and demand that these tax loopholes and subsidies to Big Fossil Fuel be CLOSED immediately. Here are the tax credits for fossil fuel Big Energy: Severance Tax Exemptions for Crude Oil Development Credit for Certain Producers Exclusion of Low-Volume Oil & Gas Wells Income support Exception from Passive Loss Limitation Support for capital formation Expensing of Exploration and Development Costs Excess of Percentage over Cost Depletion Temporary Expensing of Equipment for Refining Aid to Small Refiners for EPA Capital Costs Enhanced Oil Recovery Credit Sales Tax Exemption for Oil & Gas Equipment Qualified Capital Expenditure Credit Alternative Credit for Exploration Support for knowledge creation Amortization of Geological Expenditure And herein lies the real agenda. You hate oil companies. I mean, I knew this before we got started, but here it is in the open. Let me ask, do you hate ALL corporations? I bet not. At the very least I bet you don't spend any time blaming them for all the worlds problems. See the "Condon" thread for your homework assignment. It is enough to say in a single post in a single thread "I LOATHE BIG OIL COMPANIES". We get it. You can save a little face that way and many people will agree with you. But when you embark on a mission to pin the price of a gallon of gas on the mean old oil companies you have a dig WAY deeper it seems than you are willing to do. Yes, there are politicians who fight Wall Street. Obama is one of them. But, that is a different topic. No. In fact it IS the topic. That you don't get it is unfortunate. 3. Global Warming and Climate Change and why Big Fossil Fuel Companies need to pay for it For those of you who believe that global warming is a hoax, please keep your head placed firmly up your @ss. For the rest of you, there is a library amount of science that documents Global Warming and Climate Change. If you don't believe science, then, I wouldn't get on an airplane which uses the science of physics, chemistry, metallurgy and aerodynamics (among others) to make sure your plane stays in the sky. If you need documentation of the fact of Global Warming, see these articles, the first of which impacts New Orleanians directly: Rising Sea Levels Seen as Threat to Coastal U.S.. Global Warming from Wikipedia The government of the Maldives just held a Cabinet Meeting underwater to highlight the dangers of climate change. And here's the motivation for your big oil hate. This is nothing new. You subscribe to a theory (and I'm sorry to tell you it's nothing more than that) wherein you are able to blame some big corporation for some possible worst case scenario. You need a fight. This is common among liberals - young ones especially. Most grow up and grow out of it. Some never see the light. They're the ones trying to ban toys from happy meals. And do we really need to have the 'global warming' battle? Let me tell you how that will end. You will copy and paste a million articles from every source you can find (and there are many) and claim that this proves your point. You will have to copy and paste because you don't have the education to look at all the data it takes to make an intelligent assumption, and even if you did all you would be able to do is assume. This is all the scientists you're quoting are doing. I might be inclined to do the same, meeting every article with one that counters its point. This will go on and on and eventually the topic will be closed and you will have failed to prove a damn thing. Instead I will simply say "Prove it". Do it right now. Don't quote a theory. PROVE IT. You can't. Nobody can. Believe as you wish and sleep will at night, because your opinion of global warming doesn't affect me in any way. Matter of fact, I'd be willing to be my carbon footprint is less than yours. But who cares? The plant is going to be here when we die. It will be here for my kids and for their kids. The only problem I see is that my kids and their kids are going to have to pay for the liberal policies you support that are not sustainable. Let's just agree not to do that okay? Back to topic - next time my ex bro-in-law or my father-in-law or my grandpa is in town, if you're interested, I'd be more than happy to set up a little meeting. Each works or worked in the oil industry as I've stated. Do you want to hear it from the horses mouth, or would you prefer to stay in the matrix? You can read this too if you'd like. http://money.howstuffworks.com/oil-s...gas-price1.htm You want the red pill or the blue one? Up to you little lady.
	C'mon Man... Last edited by saintfan; 03-15-2012 at 06:26 PM..