What if?

TheOak · 07-07-2013, 09:04 AM

What if threads can be fun and cerebral.

I'll start:

What if environmentalists saving whales by pushing them back into the ocean is actually preventing them from evolving?

dam1953 · 07-07-2013, 11:11 AM

Hmm. I don't think evolution happens quite that fast. Besides, evolution is based upon survival of the "fittest" with fitness defined as having a greater number of progeny surviving to reproductive age.

Dying on the beach doesn't appear to help the cause.

SmashMouth · 07-07-2013, 01:58 PM

Here's evolution for you ...

TheOak · 07-08-2013, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by dam1953

Hmm. I don't think evolution happens quite that fast. Besides, evolution is based upon survival of the "fittest" with fitness defined as having a greater number of progeny surviving to reproductive age.

Dying on the beach doesn't appear to help the cause.

Its a "what if" scenario. However how do we know if they would all die if we keep pushing them back into the ocean?

We may be obstructing the one survivor.

Evolution has been ion place for approximately 3.6 billion years and I am not sure at this point that man has allowed it to function naturally in the last few hundred years.

Life forms dies out for a reason.

dam1953 · 07-08-2013, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by TheOak

Its a "what if" scenario. However how do we know if they would all die if we keep pushing them back into the ocean? We may be obstructing the one survivor.

Evolution has been ion place for approximately 3.6 billion years and I am not sure at this point that man has allowed it to function naturally in the last few hundred years.

Life forms dies out for a reason.

My point, and I many not have made it well, was that the whales are not evolving by dying on the beach. If, in fact, whale beachings are an attempt by whales to become terrestrial mammals once again (because that is where they came from to begin with) environmentalists may actually be helping the evolutionary process by pushing them back in the water. There, they can continue to breed with each successive generation becoming better adapted. Kind of like a king-sized walking catfish.

I don't completely agree that man has disrupted evolution over the past few hundred years. In my opinion you need to stretch that back to maybe 10,000 years. Even primitive man did a number on quite a few species when he started showing up in new places. We have just become more proficient at it in the past 200 years.

It is amazing that environmentalists want the world to remain unchanged....as it exists today. They are against fossil fuels, GMO crops, vaccines, predator culls, etc. I'm not so sure that they would have had that opinion if they lived 500 years ago. It's hard to be an environmentalist when you're focussed on not freezing or starving to death, when half your family gets wiped out by disease or when the local bear or wolf pack considers you and your family to be slow moving appetizers.

Mankind in the 21st century is, to a large extent, a much better steward of the earth than at any time in history. That said, our population levels are stressing many ecosystems to the breaking point.

halloween 65 · 07-08-2013, 12:43 PM

Kind of like human overpopulation consuming the environment. I think sometimes about what happened to ancient civilizations like the Mayans, was there really an Atlantis, and if diggers keep digging up ancient ruins what kind of plague will mankind be faced with, a lot of what if. The earth will take back one day what it wants with us here or not, that's evolution.

dam1953 · 07-08-2013, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by halloween 65

Kind of like human overpopulation consuming the environment. I think sometimes about what happened to ancient civilizations like the Mayans, was there really an Atlantis, and if diggers keep digging up ancient ruins what kind of plague will mankind be faced with, a lot of what if. The earth will take back one day what it wants with us here or not, that's evolution.

I think you hit on quite a few interesting facts/ideas. Numerous civilizations, some relatively advanced, have come and gone over the past 10,000 years. If the attached chart is reasonably accurate, modern man (Homo sapiens) has been around for at least 100,000 and possibly 500,000 years. Considering how far man has advanced in just the past 10,000 years, it would appear that there has been ample time for multiple advanced societies to rise and fall. Hence the opportunity for multiple Atlantises with remnants wiped away by time and the occasional meteorite.

As to your plague comment: I recently read that archeologists excavating graves from the Roman period came up with an interesting discovery. They were able to extract DNA from 19 sixth-century skeletal remains indicating that they had succumbed to "the plague". So, the Black Death of the 14th wasn't an isolated event. In fact, it may have been a major factor in the fall of the Roman Empire since a weakened population couldn't hold off the invading Huns.

SmashMouth · 07-08-2013, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by dam1953

I think you hit on quite a few interesting facts/ideas. Numerous civilizations, some relatively advanced, have come and gone over the past 10,000 years. If the attached chart is reasonably accurate, modern man (Homo sapiens) has been around for at least 100,000 and possibly 500,000 years. Considering how far man has advanced in just the past 10,000 years, it would appear that there has been ample time for multiple advanced societies to rise and fall. Hence the opportunity for multiple Atlantises with remnants wiped away by time and the occasional meteorite.

As to your plague comment: I recently read that archeologists excavating graves from the Roman period came up with an interesting discovery. They were able to extract DNA from 19 sixth-century skeletal remains indicating that they had succumbed to "the plague". So, the Black Death of the 14th wasn't an isolated event. In fact, it may have been a major factor in the fall of the Roman Empire since a weakened population couldn't hold off the invading Huns.

Good point ...

Huns - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Huns - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I just wonder if Attila might have been a Saints fan.

TheOak · 07-08-2013, 02:05 PM

[quote=dam1953;510487]
If a herd of velociraptors and tyrannosaurus rexs were found to exist just outside of Detroit do ya think man would let them roam freely?

Probably not. We'd kill them I'm sure. What we OUGHT to do in such a case is relocate them...to D.C.

saintfan · 07-08-2013, 03:10 PM

[quote=TheOak;510504]

Originally Posted by dam1953

If a herd of velociraptors and tyrannosaurus rexs were found to exist just outside of Detroit do ya think man would let them roam freely?

Probably not. We'd kill them I'm sure. What we OUGHT to do in such a case is relocate them...to D.C.

Dude I think I obliterated your post. My apologies. I had the above clever comment and managed to push the wrong button. I should run for President...

07-07-2013, 09:04 AM	#1
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	What if? What if threads can be fun and cerebral. I'll start: What if environmentalists saving whales by pushing them back into the ocean is actually preventing them from evolving? Danno and WhoDat!656 like this.

07-07-2013, 11:11 AM	#2
dam1953 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 4,645	Re: What if? Hmm. I don't think evolution happens quite that fast. Besides, evolution is based upon survival of the "fittest" with fitness defined as having a greater number of progeny surviving to reproductive age. Dying on the beach doesn't appear to help the cause.

07-07-2013, 01:58 PM	#3
SmashMouth I donated, did you? Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Mandeville, LA Posts: 38,125 Blog Entries: 29	Re: What if? Here's evolution for you ... Halo, saintfan, pherein and 1 others like this.
	Last edited by SmashMouth; 07-07-2013 at 02:00 PM..

07-08-2013, 10:05 AM	#4
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Re: What if? Originally Posted by dam1953 Hmm. I don't think evolution happens quite that fast. Besides, evolution is based upon survival of the "fittest" with fitness defined as having a greater number of progeny surviving to reproductive age. Dying on the beach doesn't appear to help the cause. Its a "what if" scenario. However how do we know if they would all die if we keep pushing them back into the ocean? We may be obstructing the one survivor. Evolution has been ion place for approximately 3.6 billion years and I am not sure at this point that man has allowed it to function naturally in the last few hundred years. Life forms dies out for a reason.

07-08-2013, 11:51 AM	#5
dam1953 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 4,645	Re: What if? Originally Posted by TheOak Its a "what if" scenario. However how do we know if they would all die if we keep pushing them back into the ocean? We may be obstructing the one survivor. Evolution has been ion place for approximately 3.6 billion years and I am not sure at this point that man has allowed it to function naturally in the last few hundred years. Life forms dies out for a reason. My point, and I many not have made it well, was that the whales are not evolving by dying on the beach. If, in fact, whale beachings are an attempt by whales to become terrestrial mammals once again (because that is where they came from to begin with) environmentalists may actually be helping the evolutionary process by pushing them back in the water. There, they can continue to breed with each successive generation becoming better adapted. Kind of like a king-sized walking catfish. I don't completely agree that man has disrupted evolution over the past few hundred years. In my opinion you need to stretch that back to maybe 10,000 years. Even primitive man did a number on quite a few species when he started showing up in new places. We have just become more proficient at it in the past 200 years. It is amazing that environmentalists want the world to remain unchanged....as it exists today. They are against fossil fuels, GMO crops, vaccines, predator culls, etc. I'm not so sure that they would have had that opinion if they lived 500 years ago. It's hard to be an environmentalist when you're focussed on not freezing or starving to death, when half your family gets wiped out by disease or when the local bear or wolf pack considers you and your family to be slow moving appetizers. Mankind in the 21st century is, to a large extent, a much better steward of the earth than at any time in history. That said, our population levels are stressing many ecosystems to the breaking point. WhoDat!656 likes this.
	”It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.” Charles Darwin

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07-08-2013, 12:43 PM	#6
halloween 65 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Grand Haven, Michigan by way of a little Mississippi River town in Louisiana Posts: 5,893	Re: What if? Kind of like human overpopulation consuming the environment. I think sometimes about what happened to ancient civilizations like the Mayans, was there really an Atlantis, and if diggers keep digging up ancient ruins what kind of plague will mankind be faced with, a lot of what if. The earth will take back one day what it wants with us here or not, that's evolution. dam1953 likes this.

07-08-2013, 01:19 PM	#7
dam1953 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 4,645	Re: What if? Originally Posted by halloween 65 Kind of like human overpopulation consuming the environment. I think sometimes about what happened to ancient civilizations like the Mayans, was there really an Atlantis, and if diggers keep digging up ancient ruins what kind of plague will mankind be faced with, a lot of what if. The earth will take back one day what it wants with us here or not, that's evolution. I think you hit on quite a few interesting facts/ideas. Numerous civilizations, some relatively advanced, have come and gone over the past 10,000 years. If the attached chart is reasonably accurate, modern man (Homo sapiens) has been around for at least 100,000 and possibly 500,000 years. Considering how far man has advanced in just the past 10,000 years, it would appear that there has been ample time for multiple advanced societies to rise and fall. Hence the opportunity for multiple Atlantises with remnants wiped away by time and the occasional meteorite. As to your plague comment: I recently read that archeologists excavating graves from the Roman period came up with an interesting discovery. They were able to extract DNA from 19 sixth-century skeletal remains indicating that they had succumbed to "the plague". So, the Black Death of the 14th wasn't an isolated event. In fact, it may have been a major factor in the fall of the Roman Empire since a weakened population couldn't hold off the invading Huns. Attached Thumbnails
	”It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.” Charles Darwin

07-08-2013, 02:05 PM	#9
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Re: What if? [quote=dam1953;510487] If a herd of velociraptors and tyrannosaurus rexs were found to exist just outside of Detroit do ya think man would let them roam freely? Probably not. We'd kill them I'm sure. What we OUGHT to do in such a case is relocate them...to D.C.
	Last edited by saintfan; 07-08-2013 at 03:09 PM..

07-08-2013, 03:10 PM	#10
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Re: What if? [quote=TheOak;510504] Originally Posted by dam1953 If a herd of velociraptors and tyrannosaurus rexs were found to exist just outside of Detroit do ya think man would let them roam freely? Probably not. We'd kill them I'm sure. What we OUGHT to do in such a case is relocate them...to D.C. Dude I think I obliterated your post. My apologies. I had the above clever comment and managed to push the wrong button. I should run for President... SmashMouth, TheOak and dam1953 like this.