Birthers

SloMotion · 07-19-2012, 06:58 AM

I have a little government experience and I think it could be done by one higher level GS employee with access to the archives ... you wouldn't even need to involve the recorder-lady ... then you just use all legal means available to block/impede access or investigation of the archives ... just playing devil's advocate,

, if I'm gonna' assume they're smart enough to forge a birth certificate, I gotta' also assume that the opposition would have the resources to definitively prove the birth certificate was false ... there's a lot of questions for me that I know I'm never gonna' get an answer to, but at the rate they're going, if they ever did find the birth certificate was false, it would be long after Obama is outta' office, eh?

SaintsBro · 07-19-2012, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by SloMotion

I have a little government experience and I think it could be done by one higher level GS employee with access to the archives ... you wouldn't even need to involve the recorder-lady ...

Okay! I'm with you! Let's do it, SloMo! So, we are some high level official in the state of Hawaii (who exactly are we?) and we are using our pass key (does that really exist? Which officials in another part of government would have keys to a vital records departmental office and its vault? Not many) to sneak into the archives vital records division...okay we're in, what are we doing in here exactly? I guess, since "recorder lady" is NOT involved, then I guess we have to somehow either FAKE the microfilm and/or the original record books, enough to fool her. Since she said publicly that our FAKE birth certificate we made, matches the records she has on file. So we have to line these ducks up. How do we do it? What do we do?

Do we find the roll and replace the page in the microfilm for Obama's birthday, with a duplicate page that we created, that shows his listing? Then we have to reproduce the whole roll, thousands of frames, because we can't just splice in one page, that'd be too obvious. Microfilm is FILM, you can't cut it and then stick it back together again without seeing the seam. To forge this, we would have to simulate not only the page of the microfilm, but the whole reel, the age of the microfilm itself, the reel, the box, the type of paper label on the box, the type of typewriter used on the original microfilm boxes, the yellowing of the plastic....very complex and expensive to forge all this, especially in order to fool one person (archival lady, who says our fake birth certifcate matches the vital records she has).

Let's just assume for sake of argument, that the records we want to tamper with were microfilmed in the 1980s sometime. We have to simulate not just the page of the 1961 birth ledger to insert Obama's name, we need to simulate the appearance of the roll of microfilm from the 1980s, too!

I suppose we could just find the original book and rip the page out, the one that doesn't list Obama being born, and burn it or something. That's pretty low tech. But what happens if a Republican later comes in and discovers the book with its missing page? All hell would break loose! I mean it would be freaking insane. And to get to your other point, SloMo, sure, we could cover this up until Obama gets out of office. That's easy. That's fairly do-able. But just until Obama gets out of office is not good enough -- we need to cover this thing up until Obama and virtually everybody who is responsible is dead, or beyond prosecution, so we can't get caught, right? Not to even mention the damage that would happen to our political party if/when we were caught doing this. So before we do this, before we can commit this massive conspiracy to forge this birth certificate, we have to understand -- if we're caught, we will go to jail, lose everything, our names will be mud and even our descendents will have to live with the burden of shame for years to come. It's pretty high stakes.

SloMotion · 07-19-2012, 08:56 AM

Well, I think a GS-10 or higher would be in the position to tamper with records like this, not be questioned or look suspicious, but not higher then a GS-12.

Another scenario would be that it would be that any high level operative with the proper clearance could access that area, remove and/or tamper with the documentation in question ... those records are not going to be 'locked down', no need to bribe anyone & your standard recording clerk is going to accept, rather then question, discrepancies in a record that's 50yrs old. It all slips through the cracks and when it does come under scrutiney, you only allow high level officials sympathetic to your position to view and confirm the authenticity of the material in question for national security reasons ... easy-peasey, lemon-squeezy ... I'm sure the editing of documents goes on at all levels of government everyday without question, big-corporations too for that matter, it's the way we do business.

Now, what would motivate someone to do this, IDK, especially in something as serious as the President of the United States, but that's just what makes it possible ... the more outrageous it seems, the less likely people will take it's possibility seriously or investigate ... it's like robbing a bank in broad daylight, except the prize here is control of the country ... and for the coverup, they've done a pretty good job keeping that whole JFK thing under wraps for so long.

Tell you the truth, I just don't trust either side at the moment ...

SaintsBro · 07-19-2012, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by SloMotion

... those records are not going to be 'locked down',no need to bribe anyone & your standard recording clerk is going to accept, rather then question, discrepancies in a record that's 50yrs old. ... I'm sure the editing of documents goes on at all levels of government everyday without question, big-corporations too for that matter, it's the way we do business.

Actually, no, if these are vital records then they would be on kind of a lockdown, at the very minimum least they'd be in a secure area that most employees did not have access to, only the director and a handful of departmental employees would have access. It's not like the governor is walking around with a master key that can open any lock on any government office in the state. And you can't walk in the Vital Records building as a civilian, act like you know what you're doing, saunter around, then open some doors in a corridor off from the employee lunch room and go in and edit up somebody's vital records from fifty years ago. Breaking in at night, possible, but not exactly easy to do. Because you have to leave everything undisturbed etc. Tough job, even for a seasoned criminal. So how DO we do this. Who does it --exactly who, not just "they." I really want to figure this out, how it could be done.

And yes, editing of documents goes on all the time in government, but it doesn't go on in archival documents, which are something entirely different. Archival documents and vital records are like, okay, we're microfilming everything from 1947 to 1972, BOOM, it's done. It sits on a shelf and does not get used. And the process of creating these records or maintaining them is very thorough and not done half-assed, because you are talking about the proof of existence of people...very important to the state...if you go to the local DMV and say, "look, I don't really have any proof of residence, or good proof of who I am, but I live over on Elm Street, can you please give me an ID that says I live on Elm Street," what happens, what do they say to you? Do they let you fudge on things?

Discrepancies in a record are a pretty big deal. Unfortunately all we have is the word of the top person in the vital records office, who is trained and is more than a standard clerk, who has all eyes on her and a LOT to lose personally by lying -- I mean not just possible prison time but GENERATIONS of disgrace for her family and her name if she's caught lying about this zillion dollar question, what's in the file -- and she says that at least on her watch, as far as her own integrity is concerned, there are no discrepancies, and the records are authentic and match what our forged birth certificate says.

But she HAS to be lying, because we agreed he was born in Kenya. Again, would YOU lie about something so important if someone asked you to, and how much would it cost to keep your mouth shut? So, if we are the conspirators, running this conspiracy, how much are we paying this woman for this service of lying for us? How much? Also, what do we do if she comes back to us and asks for MORE money? Do we kill her? Someone tell me how this plan works.

SloMotion · 07-19-2012, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by SaintsBro

Actually, no, if these are vital records then they would be on kind of a lockdown, at the very minimum least they'd be in a secure area that most employees did not have access to, only the director and a handful of departmental employees would have access. It's not like the governor is walking around with a master key that can open any lock on any government office in the state. And you can't walk in the Vital Records building as a civilian, act like you know what you're doing, saunter around, then open some doors in a corridor off from the employee lunch room and go in and edit up somebody's vital records from fifty years ago. Breaking in at night, possible, but not exactly easy to do. Because you have to leave everything undisturbed etc. Tough job, even for a seasoned criminal. So how DO we do this. Who does it --exactly who, not just "they." I really want to figure this out, how it could be done.

And yes, editing of documents goes on all the time in government, but it doesn't go on in archival documents, which are something entirely different. Archival documents and vital records are like, okay, we're microfilming everything from 1947 to 1972, BOOM, it's done. It sits on a shelf and does not get used. And the process of creating these records or maintaining them is very thorough and not done half-assed, because you are talking about the proof of existence of people...very important to the state...if you go to the local DMV and say, "look, I don't really have any proof of residence, or good proof of who I am, but I live over on Elm Street, can you please give me an ID that says I live on Elm Street," what happens, what do they say to you? Do they let you fudge on things?

Discrepancies in a record are a pretty big deal. Unfortunately all we have is the word of the top person in the vital records office, who is trained and is more than a standard clerk, who has all eyes on her and a LOT to lose personally by lying -- I mean not just possible prison time but GENERATIONS of disgrace for her family and her name if she's caught lying about this zillion dollar question, what's in the file -- and she says that at least on her watch, as far as her own integrity is concerned, there are no discrepancies, and the records are authentic and match what our forged birth certificate says.

But she HAS to be lying, because we agreed he was born in Kenya. Again, would YOU lie about something so important if someone asked you to, and how much would it cost to keep your mouth shut? So, if we are the conspirators, running this conspiracy, how much are we paying this woman for this service of lying for us? How much? Also, what do we do if she comes back to us and asks for MORE money? Do we kill her? Someone tell me how this plan works.

I think the sticking point is that you're assuming the records will be kept under much tighter security then I do. In my experience, someone with the proper security clearance could access those records regardless and tamper with them ... since it would have to be a high level conspiracy, the perpetrator(s) would, of course, have the high level security clearances to do so ... no need to involve the staff & if they do become suspicious or interfere, they 'commit suicide' like Ed Willey or Vince Foster, drive off a bridge at Chappaquiddick, do the 'Jimmy Hoffa' or something like that ... that's how we handle people who won't keep their mouths shut, ask for more money or ask too many questions,

.

All speculation aside, and even though I feel that if there is a discrepancy about BO's place of birth it would be something more simple like he was born in Canada & his grandparents registered his birth in Hawaii, I think if there was something rock solid to prove it the opposition would have had the resources to discover it, they'd of uncovered it and had him removed from office ... the fact they haven't tells me there's probably no truth to the claims. And to answer your question, I personally wouldn't lie about something so important if someone asked me to, but then in a situation like this, I'd probably be dead too ... power corrupts, I still see people around Detroit involved with the last mayor turning up dead after they go public with information about the administration or agreeing to cooperate with an investigation ... if that kind of stuff goes on at the city government level, you can be sure it goes on at the federal level.

saintfan · 07-19-2012, 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by SloMotion

I think the sticking point is that you're assuming the records will be kept under much tighter security then I do. In my experience, someone with the proper security clearance could access those records regardless and tamper with them ... since it would have to be a high level conspiracy, the perpetrator(s) would, of course, have the high level security clearances to do so ... no need to involve the staff & if they do become suspicious or interfere, they 'commit suicide' like Ed Willey or Vince Foster, drive off a bridge at Chappaquiddick, do the 'Jimmy Hoffa' or something like that ... that's how we handle people who won't keep their mouths shut, ask for more money or ask too many questions, .

All speculation aside, and even though I feel that if there is a discrepancy about BO's place of birth it would be something more simple like he was born in Canada & his grandparents registered his birth in Hawaii, I think if there was something rock solid to prove it the opposition would have had the resources to discover it, they'd of uncovered it and had him removed from office ... the fact they haven't tells me there's probably no truth to the claims. And to answer your question, I personally wouldn't lie about something so important if someone asked me to, but then in a situation like this, I'd probably be dead too ... power corrupts, I still see people around Detroit involved with the last mayor turning up dead after they go public with information about the administration or agreeing to cooperate with an investigation ... if that kind of stuff goes on at the city government level, you can be sure it goes on at the federal level.

Elvis knew too much. That's why they killed him.

07-19-2012, 07:52 AM	#2
SaintsBro Site Donor Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: in line with my ridiculous CLEAR PLASTIC BAG Posts: 3,650 Blog Entries: 3	Originally Posted by SloMotion I have a little government experience and I think it could be done by one higher level GS employee with access to the archives ... you wouldn't even need to involve the recorder-lady ... Okay! I'm with you! Let's do it, SloMo! So, we are some high level official in the state of Hawaii (who exactly are we?) and we are using our pass key (does that really exist? Which officials in another part of government would have keys to a vital records departmental office and its vault? Not many) to sneak into the archives vital records division...okay we're in, what are we doing in here exactly? I guess, since "recorder lady" is NOT involved, then I guess we have to somehow either FAKE the microfilm and/or the original record books, enough to fool her. Since she said publicly that our FAKE birth certificate we made, matches the records she has on file. So we have to line these ducks up. How do we do it? What do we do? Do we find the roll and replace the page in the microfilm for Obama's birthday, with a duplicate page that we created, that shows his listing? Then we have to reproduce the whole roll, thousands of frames, because we can't just splice in one page, that'd be too obvious. Microfilm is FILM, you can't cut it and then stick it back together again without seeing the seam. To forge this, we would have to simulate not only the page of the microfilm, but the whole reel, the age of the microfilm itself, the reel, the box, the type of paper label on the box, the type of typewriter used on the original microfilm boxes, the yellowing of the plastic....very complex and expensive to forge all this, especially in order to fool one person (archival lady, who says our fake birth certifcate matches the vital records she has). Let's just assume for sake of argument, that the records we want to tamper with were microfilmed in the 1980s sometime. We have to simulate not just the page of the 1961 birth ledger to insert Obama's name, we need to simulate the appearance of the roll of microfilm from the 1980s, too! I suppose we could just find the original book and rip the page out, the one that doesn't list Obama being born, and burn it or something. That's pretty low tech. But what happens if a Republican later comes in and discovers the book with its missing page? All hell would break loose! I mean it would be freaking insane. And to get to your other point, SloMo, sure, we could cover this up until Obama gets out of office. That's easy. That's fairly do-able. But just until Obama gets out of office is not good enough -- we need to cover this thing up until Obama and virtually everybody who is responsible is dead, or beyond prosecution, so we can't get caught, right? Not to even mention the damage that would happen to our political party if/when we were caught doing this. So before we do this, before we can commit this massive conspiracy to forge this birth certificate, we have to understand -- if we're caught, we will go to jail, lose everything, our names will be mud and even our descendents will have to live with the burden of shame for years to come. It's pretty high stakes. Halo likes this.

07-19-2012, 10:22 AM	#4
SaintsBro Site Donor Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: in line with my ridiculous CLEAR PLASTIC BAG Posts: 3,650 Blog Entries: 3	Originally Posted by SloMotion ... those records are not going to be 'locked down',no need to bribe anyone & your standard recording clerk is going to accept, rather then question, discrepancies in a record that's 50yrs old. ... I'm sure the editing of documents goes on at all levels of government everyday without question, big-corporations too for that matter, it's the way we do business. Actually, no, if these are vital records then they would be on kind of a lockdown, at the very minimum least they'd be in a secure area that most employees did not have access to, only the director and a handful of departmental employees would have access. It's not like the governor is walking around with a master key that can open any lock on any government office in the state. And you can't walk in the Vital Records building as a civilian, act like you know what you're doing, saunter around, then open some doors in a corridor off from the employee lunch room and go in and edit up somebody's vital records from fifty years ago. Breaking in at night, possible, but not exactly easy to do. Because you have to leave everything undisturbed etc. Tough job, even for a seasoned criminal. So how DO we do this. Who does it --exactly who, not just "they." I really want to figure this out, how it could be done. And yes, editing of documents goes on all the time in government, but it doesn't go on in archival documents, which are something entirely different. Archival documents and vital records are like, okay, we're microfilming everything from 1947 to 1972, BOOM, it's done. It sits on a shelf and does not get used. And the process of creating these records or maintaining them is very thorough and not done half-assed, because you are talking about the proof of existence of people...very important to the state...if you go to the local DMV and say, "look, I don't really have any proof of residence, or good proof of who I am, but I live over on Elm Street, can you please give me an ID that says I live on Elm Street," what happens, what do they say to you? Do they let you fudge on things? Discrepancies in a record are a pretty big deal. Unfortunately all we have is the word of the top person in the vital records office, who is trained and is more than a standard clerk, who has all eyes on her and a LOT to lose personally by lying -- I mean not just possible prison time but GENERATIONS of disgrace for her family and her name if she's caught lying about this zillion dollar question, what's in the file -- and she says that at least on her watch, as far as her own integrity is concerned, there are no discrepancies, and the records are authentic and match what our forged birth certificate says. But she HAS to be lying, because we agreed he was born in Kenya. Again, would YOU lie about something so important if someone asked you to, and how much would it cost to keep your mouth shut? So, if we are the conspirators, running this conspiracy, how much are we paying this woman for this service of lying for us? How much? Also, what do we do if she comes back to us and asks for MORE money? Do we kill her? Someone tell me how this plan works.

07-19-2012, 06:25 PM	#5
SloMotion 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 6,776 Blog Entries: 15	Originally Posted by SaintsBro Actually, no, if these are vital records then they would be on kind of a lockdown, at the very minimum least they'd be in a secure area that most employees did not have access to, only the director and a handful of departmental employees would have access. It's not like the governor is walking around with a master key that can open any lock on any government office in the state. And you can't walk in the Vital Records building as a civilian, act like you know what you're doing, saunter around, then open some doors in a corridor off from the employee lunch room and go in and edit up somebody's vital records from fifty years ago. Breaking in at night, possible, but not exactly easy to do. Because you have to leave everything undisturbed etc. Tough job, even for a seasoned criminal. So how DO we do this. Who does it --exactly who, not just "they." I really want to figure this out, how it could be done. And yes, editing of documents goes on all the time in government, but it doesn't go on in archival documents, which are something entirely different. Archival documents and vital records are like, okay, we're microfilming everything from 1947 to 1972, BOOM, it's done. It sits on a shelf and does not get used. And the process of creating these records or maintaining them is very thorough and not done half-assed, because you are talking about the proof of existence of people...very important to the state...if you go to the local DMV and say, "look, I don't really have any proof of residence, or good proof of who I am, but I live over on Elm Street, can you please give me an ID that says I live on Elm Street," what happens, what do they say to you? Do they let you fudge on things? Discrepancies in a record are a pretty big deal. Unfortunately all we have is the word of the top person in the vital records office, who is trained and is more than a standard clerk, who has all eyes on her and a LOT to lose personally by lying -- I mean not just possible prison time but GENERATIONS of disgrace for her family and her name if she's caught lying about this zillion dollar question, what's in the file -- and she says that at least on her watch, as far as her own integrity is concerned, there are no discrepancies, and the records are authentic and match what our forged birth certificate says. But she HAS to be lying, because we agreed he was born in Kenya. Again, would YOU lie about something so important if someone asked you to, and how much would it cost to keep your mouth shut? So, if we are the conspirators, running this conspiracy, how much are we paying this woman for this service of lying for us? How much? Also, what do we do if she comes back to us and asks for MORE money? Do we kill her? Someone tell me how this plan works. I think the sticking point is that you're assuming the records will be kept under much tighter security then I do. In my experience, someone with the proper security clearance could access those records regardless and tamper with them ... since it would have to be a high level conspiracy, the perpetrator(s) would, of course, have the high level security clearances to do so ... no need to involve the staff & if they do become suspicious or interfere, they 'commit suicide' like Ed Willey or Vince Foster, drive off a bridge at Chappaquiddick, do the 'Jimmy Hoffa' or something like that ... that's how we handle people who won't keep their mouths shut, ask for more money or ask too many questions, . All speculation aside, and even though I feel that if there is a discrepancy about BO's place of birth it would be something more simple like he was born in Canada & his grandparents registered his birth in Hawaii, I think if there was something rock solid to prove it the opposition would have had the resources to discover it, they'd of uncovered it and had him removed from office ... the fact they haven't tells me there's probably no truth to the claims. And to answer your question, I personally wouldn't lie about something so important if someone asked me to, but then in a situation like this, I'd probably be dead too ... power corrupts, I still see people around Detroit involved with the last mayor turning up dead after they go public with information about the administration or agreeing to cooperate with an investigation ... if that kind of stuff goes on at the city government level, you can be sure it goes on at the federal level.

07-19-2012, 09:38 PM	#6
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Originally Posted by SloMotion I think the sticking point is that you're assuming the records will be kept under much tighter security then I do. In my experience, someone with the proper security clearance could access those records regardless and tamper with them ... since it would have to be a high level conspiracy, the perpetrator(s) would, of course, have the high level security clearances to do so ... no need to involve the staff & if they do become suspicious or interfere, they 'commit suicide' like Ed Willey or Vince Foster, drive off a bridge at Chappaquiddick, do the 'Jimmy Hoffa' or something like that ... that's how we handle people who won't keep their mouths shut, ask for more money or ask too many questions, . All speculation aside, and even though I feel that if there is a discrepancy about BO's place of birth it would be something more simple like he was born in Canada & his grandparents registered his birth in Hawaii, I think if there was something rock solid to prove it the opposition would have had the resources to discover it, they'd of uncovered it and had him removed from office ... the fact they haven't tells me there's probably no truth to the claims. And to answer your question, I personally wouldn't lie about something so important if someone asked me to, but then in a situation like this, I'd probably be dead too ... power corrupts, I still see people around Detroit involved with the last mayor turning up dead after they go public with information about the administration or agreeing to cooperate with an investigation ... if that kind of stuff goes on at the city government level, you can be sure it goes on at the federal level. Elvis knew too much. That's why they killed him. SapperSaint likes this.

07-19-2012, 06:58 AM	#1
SloMotion 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 6,776 Blog Entries: 15	I have a little government experience and I think it could be done by one higher level GS employee with access to the archives ... you wouldn't even need to involve the recorder-lady ... then you just use all legal means available to block/impede access or investigation of the archives ... just playing devil's advocate, , if I'm gonna' assume they're smart enough to forge a birth certificate, I gotta' also assume that the opposition would have the resources to definitively prove the birth certificate was false ... there's a lot of questions for me that I know I'm never gonna' get an answer to, but at the rate they're going, if they ever did find the birth certificate was false, it would be long after Obama is outta' office, eh?

07-19-2012, 08:56 AM	#3
SloMotion 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 6,776 Blog Entries: 15	Well, I think a GS-10 or higher would be in the position to tamper with records like this, not be questioned or look suspicious, but not higher then a GS-12. Another scenario would be that it would be that any high level operative with the proper clearance could access that area, remove and/or tamper with the documentation in question ... those records are not going to be 'locked down', no need to bribe anyone & your standard recording clerk is going to accept, rather then question, discrepancies in a record that's 50yrs old. It all slips through the cracks and when it does come under scrutiney, you only allow high level officials sympathetic to your position to view and confirm the authenticity of the material in question for national security reasons ... easy-peasey, lemon-squeezy ... I'm sure the editing of documents goes on at all levels of government everyday without question, big-corporations too for that matter, it's the way we do business. Now, what would motivate someone to do this, IDK, especially in something as serious as the President of the United States, but that's just what makes it possible ... the more outrageous it seems, the less likely people will take it's possibility seriously or investigate ... it's like robbing a bank in broad daylight, except the prize here is control of the country ... and for the coverup, they've done a pretty good job keeping that whole JFK thing under wraps for so long. Tell you the truth, I just don't trust either side at the moment ...