Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted
 

Oak,

I my best South Boston accent:

"YO! Youre like, wicked smaaht!"

Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted
 

Let's start with my personal spending habits 'hurting thousands in my community', misguided hyperbole that it is. I still buy gas in my community, just not at BP. I still buy food from local businesses.

Next, BP and CFA take in revenue via initial franchise fees and an ongoing percentage of sales, generally around 4-5%. Franchises also must buy logo-ed disposables and paper products from, yes, a subsidiary of the franchisor. they also pay a marketing fee, which goes directly to the franchisor's advertising budget.
Are they missing my $15 bucks a week? No, but it is naive to think that there is no impact on the parent company. BP's market cap is down almost 20% since April 2010---30 billion dollars.

As for CFA owners being shocked by a press release, come on, we both know you are a lot smarter than that. First, Dan Cathy is not going to grant a franchise to anyone that doesn't share his ideals. Second, very few CFA owners are minorities or women, and unless they live in caves, they see what is going on. The CFA franchisees weren't shocked, they were ecstatic: the press release led to a sales boon. CFA had a record sales year as supporters rallied behind the company's now very public anti-gay stance.
Since you are chastising me, do you also have issue with these people "hurting thousands in their community" by patronizing CFA more and other local restaurants less?
Probably not, and neither do I.

Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted
 

All those groups and/or states that you just mentioned have taken personal stance, just as I do, and that is in no way persecuting them. They are not being denied service at chik-fil-a or any other place. And 36 states that oppose gay marriage are trying to protect something that used to be sacred and not intended for same sex relationships.

The whole reason for marriage comes from the Bible. So if you're a non believer and you want to, in essence, give the word of God the middle finger, then you have no reason to be married. Just live together, and do whatever it is you want to do.

Now as far as foreign countries, don't even bother going there. Christians, females (regardless of beliefs) gays, jews, all get murdered all the time. You're talking about brutal dictatorships. Let's not compare them to our country. You're embarrassing yourself with that one.

And as for your question, I don't consider myself persecuted. I used the word pressure. People like me can get fired from our jobs for saying something as simple as "I think homosexuality is wrong" out loud where someone who disagrees with me might complain. But if that same person were to call me a bigot for my beliefs, nothing would happen to that person. Because heaven forbid we upset a homosexual and have it blow up all over the news about how "intolerent" this person's boss is. It blows up just that quick, and you see it on tv just about every day now.

And why did I say "anymore"? I can't believe I have to explain this, but I'll humor you. Because whereas this country used to take a moral stand (and yes, there was also a greater number of radicals who hated gays rather than simply disagreeing with them) it now praises people for their "courage" and practically forces others to do the same. So there really isn't persecution "anymore". You may have a few isolated incidents, but for every issue involving a gay person there is one for every other person or culture nowadays.

Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted
 

Scott, are you certain you know what discrimination is? Let me use an analogy. I know from arguments on the political forum that you are a liberal, and you may remember that I am a conservative. In other words, we disagree with each other's beliefs. Are we discriminating against each other, then?

There are no companies or restaurants who are shutting their doors to gays. They simply do not support the gay rights movement as many of them are christian organizations, as Sapper has pointed out. There is no comparison between that and someone burning down your house because they "don't like your kind". No what I mean?

Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted
 

I never said restaurants were denying service. In fact, I said the exact opposite in regards to customers.

Chick-fil-a is anti-gay. Dan Cathy has publicly stated that. The company has contributed to anti-gay groups. That is documented. But you guys come at me like this is just my opinion, when the company in question has OPENLY STATED IT.

Here is their statement of their policies moving forward, as in, 'we didn't do this before, but...'

Chick-fil-A has "ceased donating to organizations that promote discrimination , specifically against LGBT civil rights." According to the TCRA, Chick-fil-A officials stated in an internal document that they " will treat every person equally, regardless of sexual orientation."

So, they have CEASED supporting groups that discriminate, and now WILL treat everyone equally (future tense)

Yes, I do know what discrimination is, especially when it is documented so clearly.

You patronize the businesses you want, and I'll do the same. I'm thinking that is granted to us somewhere in the constitution.

Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted
 

That would be the First Amendment, that governs expression and speech. It also encompasses religious beliefs. Which is what Dan Cathy was practicing.

He does seem to be being discriminated against based on his Southern Baptist beliefs.

Interesting how there is support for ones freedom to express being gay but not another freedom to express his religion.

No?

Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted
 

Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted
 

Just jumping in here and I have read the posts, the guy is gay. He said. No future shock or story for any team that should take him. No scandal. He took all of that away. No money story.

Lots of people have gay cowokers, family, friends, neighbors, etc.
God created these people as they are.

I do not think any NFL fan or team cares if he is hired as long as he can play.
The NFL , of all places, cannot for pr reasons , cannot be critical of the guy because he has not raped, killed, had DUI, dog fights, baby mama drama and more. he is gay. Whether or not he is drafted or can be in the NFL all depends if he can play ball.
Opposite situation, Tim Tebow. Many still want to say poor Timmy Tebow was taken out of the NFL by Liberals and Devils and goodness knows what because he was CHRISTIAN.
No, he had no team wanting him and wanting him as starting qb because he was simply not that good. Period.
The Late Reggie White was Christian and talked his beliefs. Russell Wilson is Christian and talks up his beliefs. Many others.
I think it ok to assume the Mannings have strong Christian beliefs. They do not talk it up . Oh, they can play that football.

All people care about is if the guy can play football.

Mr. Cathy of CFA. This is really BS ..."Oh , he does not want gay people at his places or hire gay people or have gay franchise owners....
That story. He has his beliefs and can have them as we all can.
He can and cannot award a CFA, his business, to people who share his beliefs or who are straight. What do you think, he has them pledge under oath or something? LOL!! Sign stuff like that? You cannot do that.
There are US Civil Rights that trump him.
How would he know if they are gay or straight?
Are they selling gay sandwiches? Are they selling gay propaganda? Gay flags? Have gay family night?
No. No. No.
If someone meets all the finanical means, background checks, etc. to buy a CFA franchise, I am sure they can get one.
Mr. Cathy cannot ask anyone to pledge to be anti-gay or ask if they are gay. No CFA applications for the cashier to the fries guy to the manager asks people if they are gay. Support gay rights? Belong to a Christian Chruch, preferably Protestant? Etc.

Ones' personal life is just that and has nothing to do with the work place whatever you are.
Ones' personal life is personal and should be kept personal whether you are gay or straight.

Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted
 

If this were true, this wouldn't be a story. He'd be a projected mid round pick as are a couple hundred other guys.

Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted
 

All that should matter is if he can pound the guy in front of him or squirt through that line.

Really if you think about it... only 10% of gays are the wrong sex trapped in the wrong body. The rest.... got sucked into it.

Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted
 

That's simple, Dan Cathy has a constitutional right to practice what ever religious beliefs he wants and he is free from government persecution.

He is not free from being judged by the public for those beliefs.

If you don't like the way he feels about homosexuality, then the best way to show it, is to not patronize his business.

The Westboro Baptist Church could open a restaurant chain and make the best hamburgers on the planet and sell them for a dime a piece. I still wouldn't spend a plug nickel there.

And unless you somehow decrease the amount of the product being purchased, "the community" still receives benefit of purchasing said product, it just goes to the competitor now instead of the people being boycotted. So the "community" isn't being hurt overall, just the specific target of the boycott. Competitors of that target reap the rewards and the net change to the "community" is zero. In the example given, BP may not receive my purchase but Chevron will.

Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted
 

Put what ever spin or logo you want on it. At the end of the day a
Franchise owner that spent 1-2m on a store and paid a franchise fee is being hurt for something he had nothing to do with.

Punishment of the innocent.....
Persecution of the innocent.....
Isn't that what some hypocrites are supposedly against?


Oh BTW if it doesn't matter what brand is bought because something is being bought; then it doesn't matter what sexual orientation is on the field because the game will be played anyway.

Try again.

Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted
 

No spin. I hope everyone includes their moral beliefs into how they spend their money. Don't reward people that have different values. It's the best way to let business know they the can and will be held accountable for their actions.

If a company uses child labor then don't buy their product if you're against child labor.

If a company tests its product on animals, then don't buy their products if you're against animal cruelty.

If a company has a terrible environmental record, then don't buy their products if you're an environmentalist.

And if a company supports groups that teach hate, then don't buy their products if you're a Christian.

That's walkin the walk. Pretty much the opposite of spin.

Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted
 

There is a huge discernible difference between deliberate corporate policy and the actions of a rogue employee or employees.

Guilt by association is punishment of the innocent <full stop>

Here, I'll do the same and spin it my way. Gay priests molested friends of mine in Vermillion Parish in the late 70s. I'll just chose to not support any gays. Sounds more than fair doesn't it?

Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted
 

Yes, there is a difference between rogue employees and corporate policy. In the case of Chick fil a, there has been a "higher than industry standard" number of law suits alleging discrimination in career advancement and sexual orientation bias. That would indicate more of corporate culture than he actions of a rogue employee.

In the scenario that you laid out with the gay priests, you are choosing not to support a people based on an individual characteristics, such as red hair or blue eyes. That is discrimination and it's wrong. That's entirely different than choosing not to patronize a business based on differing viewpoints.

To make your scenario similar to what we are discussing you would choose not to support the Church if they were doing nothing to stop their priests from abusing children or punishing the abusers. But this would assume more than one incident and a pattern of coverup from the Church, so as not to fall under the "rogue employee" stipulation you suggested earlier. If there was a pattern, would you suggest that we ignore the actions of the child abusing priest and support the Church as we always have?

Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted
 

That's laughable, YOU get to decide how someone else feels about a group of people? Feeling that are based off real world experiences. Seems pretty fair to say you feel like you can decide how everyone should think and feel in regards to homosexuals. Very interesting.

Horse crap, don't try to spin the "born that way" with me. Blue eyes, brown hair, fair skin, none of which ever hurt anyone and those are physical traits.

What those priests did were actions not physical traits. Everyone is born a certain way, some chose to hurt other people. Gay pedofiles are not born that way, if they are then I highly suggest the gay community get something done about offenders being paroled.

Sounds to me like there is a bit of inconsistency as to how gays are actually born.

Lawsuits are evidence of nothing except people claiming they have been wronged. If you understood the difference between a CFL franchise and a say Starbucks or Gas Station franchise you would know why there are disproportionate claims. Do your homework and you'll understand that CFL caters to a lower income franchisee.

If CFL is so horrible why do they turn away 1000+ applicants for everyone they grant? Certainly minorities wouldn't be interested
In working for David Duke Motors.

Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted
 

False information.
Do some research about the number of stores in affluent areas vs. lower income.
Look at the 'diversity' of the board of directors and executive officer pages.
Look at their franchisee demographics.

Your argument that they turn down 99.9% (it's closer to 92%) of applicants works the other way- they can afford to be selective and find owners who think the way they do. And of those they turn away, you know it isn't because they have 'too much money' and CFA is looking for lower income owners.

You also might want to look at CFA's fees; no way a low income owner could afford their net profit charge.

Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted
 

I did my homework and you reference my "argument" as if it is my opinion. It is reality. As far as the math. CFL grants roughly 75 to 80 per 10,000 applicants, .75 to .8 per every 100 applicants is not a full percent granted. So round to the closest answer.... Its not 92%.

1. A % of profit: If you understand profit, has zero to do with a franchise owners affluence, and everything to do with risk. Paying 50% of the profit to the parent company doesn't effect a person with $500 in the back more than it does a person with $5,000,000.00 in the bank. Its profit, not expense. it is what is left after everyone and everything is paid.

2. Market - All businesses study market before placement of a brick and mortar store. A target market is the market where a business has the best chance of success. Starbucks for example is supportive of the gay community, but if you look at the placement of their businesses you'll not find many in an area where the demographic and income level doesn't support $5 coffee. The adverse is also true, if you look at a map of Houston and see where Starbucks is not located you will find an abundance of La Michoacana grocery stores because they target and cater to lower income mostly Hispanic neighborhoods. Its not racism, or class warfare, its business.

3. Why does CFL get 10,000 applicants? Why do they take such a huge % of the profit? Because they take most of the risk by providing the brick and mortar store to the tune of 1-2.5m each, other franchises make the franchisee front the capital for the store... Guess who pays the monthly note for the land and building? So if you want to get into the affluence aspect of who CFL caters to, you will see they cater to low wealth entrepreneurs.

Total cost for a entrepreneurial franchisee out of pocket for a CFL = $5,000
Total cost for a entrepreneurial franchisee out of pocket for a Seattle's best Coffee (Owned by Starbucks) = look at the start up costs
Seattle's Best Coffee Franchise Information | Seattle's Best Coffee Ownership Cost, Requirements, & Fees

Now look at the start up costs for the top franchises of 2014 and compare that to $5,000
2014 Top Franchises from Entrepreneur's Franchise 500 List

As far as for CFL hand picking "like minded" individuals... Well that would involve a Q&A process that would bring the NAACP, US DoL, and every other entity governmental and non governmental down on them just for asking certain questions.

Do you think Mr. Charles Gibson was asked how he feels about blacks and gays during his vetting process? I suspect that with roughly 9,900 people being turned down a year if CFL was asking those questions the law suits would number in the thousands each year.
Chick-fil-A: Franchise Opportunities


What do you do for a living? Do you have a target market?

Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted
 

Since, you have resorted to ad hominem attacks and straw man arguments I think it's pretty safe to assume that you don't have any more to add to your claim that someone's personal boycott against a company is a bad thing.

Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted
 

Very interesting reply. Apagogical arguments are ad hominem, and straw man.

A fitting end to an reductio ad absurdum thread.

Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted
 

No, it's still you opinion because you haven't posted anything to validate your statement that CFA is targeting or is friendly to minority owners. Where is your CFA data? We are not discussing Starbucks.

The financials that you say appeal to minorities could just as easily apply to a wealthy individual or a venture capitalist firm: CFA's fee is only $5K, but applicants need to show proof of $1,000,000 in equity. After that you have your restaurant open and do about $25,000 a week in sales.
Your PAC, or profit after controllables, is want the owner-operator can impact, after taking into consideration that CFA's food cost is significantly higher than the rest of the fast-food segment. Your PAC is probably 30-35%
That takes you to LOP, location operating profit. Here is where you get hit with franchise royalty fee (4%), marketing fee, and NOW THE BIG ONES: rent and depreciation. Where does this money go? Right back to CFA, because, as you stated, THEY own the physical plant and equipment. And not only do they pick your location, they set the rent and dep numbers.

End of the day, the 'owner' shows 7-8% LOP, and oh yeah 50% goes to Dan Cathy. SO YES, having only $500 in the bank does hurt you in this scenario, because netting $5000 a month on the bottom-bottom line isn't great, and if you want out, fine, you have zero equity either way.

as for this:
What do you do for a living? Do you have a target market?
So obviously you think CFA does have a target market.
YOU started this discussion by condemning me for not supporting a business that does NOT target me as a customer. Have we now gone full circle and I can support who I want again?

Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted
 

You are basing a lot of your information off of generic franchise modeling. $1mm in equity is Burger King, not Chick fil a. All of the above must be why CFA only has 20k applications/year for franchising. The CFA franchising model is low risk/low reward, a franchise owner can expect to make right around $100k/year... So I ask you, why in the heck would someone with $1m in equity chase $100k/year? it is not a high volume franchise so you wouldn't have 4 in a 5 mile radius.

As far as for CFA having a target market.. I openly stated that. All corporations and businesses have a target market. Try obtaining a business loan with a business model that has no target.

We are going full circle because you seem to be interpreting my words incorrectly; there isn't much need for interpretation, much less incorrect interpretation. I never said CFA "targets minority owners". Targeting based on ethnicity is discrimination. I did say their franchise model is one that caters to lower wealth entrepreneurs, and it does.

Now you deem my information irrelevant because I haven't posted information to validate? You have Google, use it. Why do you keep rewording my statements and giving them back to me? While intentionally avoiding my questions.

I have condemned no one. You brought up BP and CFA, I questioned motives and the degree of success that your boycotts have had? i also thought it prudent to point out that Dan Cathy and the BP-5 haven't been effected by your boycotts.

Now back to my original statement. Michael Sam's sexual orientation is irrelevant for employment.

Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted
 

Micheal Sam makes my point for me at the combine:

“I just wish you guys would just see me as Michael Sam the football player instead of Michael Sam the gay football player,” he said.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/23/sp...ield.html?_r=0

If you want to be seen as Sam the football player, don't go out of your way to make sure you are seen as a hyphenated-Sam the football player.

I am somewhat curious about his most recent statement, to me it comes off as a reversal to his previous statement. He went out of his way to be seen as someone that is making sure he is seen as a gay football player but now he doesn't care for that image.

I am also curious about the G/L/T community supporting a Corporation that makes zero attempt to embrace its community or support it. From what I have been told and read, the absence of translates to being against.

Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted
 

And back to football... wasn't overly impressed with Sam's combine showing.

Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted
 

17 reps puts him second lowest on the bench press
25" puts him around second to lowest Vert Jump

6'2" 261 puts him on the short and light side in comparison.

So he is shorter, lighter, weaker, and has average speed and quickness.
Monday Scouting Combine Tracker: Drill Results for Defensive Linemen and Linebackers - Acme Packing Company
NFL Events: Combine Tracker

Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted
 

That vertical jump attempt was pathetic.

Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted
 

I was expecting to see better numbers from the Co-MVP on defense of the mighty SEC.

Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted
 

I am a little surprised to see his stats. His play last season was stellar. I wonder if he might be this years Vontaze Burfict.



Scott Fujita wrote an quite interesting piece on all of this too.
Michael Sam, Jason Collins pave the way for a better workplace, world | FOX Sports on MSN

Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted
 

Jarvis Jones put up similarly unimpressive numbers too.

Its odd, the SEC sack leader has rarely been successful in the NFL, and I have no earthly freakin' idea of why that is.

Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted
 

Just curious.. wasn't Derrick Thomas the SEC sack leader his junior year at Bama? Or was it Cornelius B? ... they stick out in my mind when it comes to sacking the QB in college and pros.

Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted
 

Since 2005, and I saw a list of the last 10 years and it wasn't much better

2013 Michael Sam 12 Missouri
2012 Jarvis Jones* 14 Georgia
2011 Jarvis Jones* 14 Georgia
2010 Nick Fairley* 12 Auburn
2009 Antonio Coleman* 10 Auburn
2008 Carlos Dunlap* 10 Florida
2007 Marcus Howard* 10 Georgia
2006 Jamaal Anderson* 14 Arkansas
2005 Willie Evans 15 Mississippi State

Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted
 

Wait... I'm confused about this thread.....

Did Goodell make it a requirement that all SEC pass rushers that get drafted in the 1st round become gay?

http://theimpersonals.com/wp-content...5/cat-sexy.jpg