Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted

TheOak · 02-10-2014, 10:05 AM

If you do not want issues to be made, do not make them. Why should any entity or person be accepting of something that is irrelevant?

This whole acceptance movement is such a tangled web of confusion. Preaching acceptance from a podium of intolerance is more than slight hypocrisy.

Stop accepting the lies that our culture is attempting frame disagreement in. The entire mindset that because you disagree with someones lifestyle means you must fear or hate them is absurd. Just as absurd as thinking that if you love someone you agree with everything they believe or do.

Compassion is not defined as compromising your convictions and empathy is not agreement.

alleycat_126 · 02-10-2014, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by TheOak

Why should any entity or person be accepting of something that is irrelevant?

irrelevant for who? certainly not irrelevant for the millions of people who feel they have to hide what they are for fear of being persecuted, or worse.....

The entire mindset that because you disagree with someones lifestyle means you must fear or hate them is absurd.

Basically about as absurd as you saying everything but, there's no fear or hate towards anybody who wants to come out and be gay in today's society.... I hope I said that right, I took all the big words out..... Lol.....

TheOak · 02-10-2014, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by alleycat_126

irrelevant for who? certainly not irrelevant for the millions of people who feel they have to hide what they are for fear of being persecuted, or worse.....

Basically about as absurd as you saying everything but, there's no fear or hate towards anybody who wants to come out and be gay in today's society.... I hope I said that right, I took all the big words out..... Lol.....

Try reading my post through a more neutral lens.

Unless you are of the mind that sexual orientation effects a persons job performance, it is irrelevant. Sexual orientation is less relevant than race, age, or gender, from a job performance view; and they are pretty damned irrelevant. His being gay is as relevant to the NFL as his coach being hetero..... If he is.... If he isn't, it's still irrelevant.

On the second part you completely misconstrued my words. Just because I wouldn't become a vegetarian doesn't mean I fear or hate them. Just because I eat meat doesn't mean I love and am in complete support of other meat eaters. I never said there are not simple minded people that see things as either right or wrong, and not what they actually are.... Different.

I made a completely neutral post but you felt there was a need to defend something. What ever your reason is, it's yours. Another irrelevant item.

If society spent more time focusing on things that actually have relevance the world would be a better place.

Then there is the hypocrisy of judgment. Your lashing out about narrow sighted fools judging and labeling homosexuals, by judging and labeling those people. Incorrectly I might add since I said nothing negative about gays.... Only dumbassed Americans.

ScottF · 02-10-2014, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by TheOak

Try reading my post through a more neutral lens.

Unless you are of the mind that sexual orientation effects a persons job performance, it is irrelevant. Sexual orientation is less relevant than race, age, or gender, from a job performance view; and they are pretty damned irrelevant. His being gay is as relevant to the NFL as his coach being hetero..... If he is.... If he isn't, it's still irrelevant.

.

In most of society, yes. In the NFL, unfortunately, no.
From the hazing incidents, stories of players baling on teammates they don't like, to homophobic comments (not Vilma; that was ridiculous), we know that the NFL is still an old boys club, filled with bullies and other narrow-minded types. See Richie Incognito for a recent reference.
End of the day, it's a team game, and if your teammates don't support you, you can't be successful.

Sad, but I don't think this guy will survive an NFL locker room. I wish him well, because it is well past time

here is an interesting timeline- openly gay politicians, athletes and entertainers. A lot you will know (H.Milk, Sally Ride), and they date back to the 60's.

List of lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender firsts by year - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, how is it that in 50 years that no active professional athlete has come out? Because they know what the backlash would be.

ClintSaints · 02-11-2014, 12:11 AM

Originally Posted by ScottF

In most of society, yes. In the NFL, unfortunately, no.
From the hazing incidents, stories of players baling on teammates they don't like, to homophobic comments (not Vilma; that was ridiculous), we know that the NFL is still an old boys club, filled with bullies and other narrow-minded types. See Richie Incognito for a recent reference.
End of the day, it's a team game, and if your teammates don't support you, you can't be successful.

Sad, but I don't think this guy will survive an NFL locker room. I wish him well, because it is well past time

here is an interesting timeline- openly gay politicians, athletes and entertainers. A lot you will know (H.Milk, Sally Ride), and they date back to the 60's.

List of lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender firsts by year - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, how is it that in 50 years that no active professional athlete has come out? Because they know what the backlash would be.

50 years ago, there was no gay rights movement. Michael Sam came out to his entire team in Missouri last August. Warren Moon has stated publicly that there were two gay guys on his team that everyone in the locker room knew about and got along with fine. Don't underestimate the NFL locker rooms. The only thing that really matters in most locker rooms (but not all) is WINNING.

ScottF · 02-11-2014, 05:32 AM

Originally Posted by ClintSaints

50 years ago, there was no gay rights movement. Michael Sam came out to his entire team in Missouri last August. Warren Moon has stated publicly that there were two gay guys on his team that everyone in the locker room knew about and got along with fine. Don't underestimate the NFL locker rooms. The only thing that really matters in most locker rooms (but not all) is WINNING.

Are you saying he came out for the 'movement' ? The 'movement' has been going on for 25 years. Some states have had same-sex marriage for 10 years (Vermont longer).
I completely get your point about winning, but looking at Kluwe, J.Martin, Ayanbadejo, and the fact that not one player has ever come out, that tells a different story.
With injured reserve, practice squad and active rosters, there are 2000 NFL players each year. About 4% of Americans are openly gay, which would equal about 80 players being out. Instead there are zero, and there's always been zero. If not the locker room mentality, then what?

TheOak · 02-11-2014, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by ScottF

In most of society, yes. In the NFL, unfortunately, no.
From the hazing incidents, stories of players baling on teammates they don't like, to homophobic comments (not Vilma; that was ridiculous), we know that the NFL is still an old boys club, filled with bullies and other narrow-minded types. See Richie Incognito for a recent reference.
End of the day, it's a team game, and if your teammates don't support you, you can't be successful.

Sad, but I don't think this guy will survive an NFL locker room. I wish him well, because it is well past time

here is an interesting timeline- openly gay politicians, athletes and entertainers. A lot you will know (H.Milk, Sally Ride), and they date back to the 60's.

List of lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender firsts by year - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, how is it that in 50 years that no active professional athlete has come out? Because they know what the backlash would be.

Originally Posted by alleycat_126

That may apply to every other job in every other arena, but not in any NFL, or NBA locker rooms... There's hazing, as we found there's bullying...and you don't have to be anything but different in order to be a victim of it..... This is just as relevant as breaking through barriers for race, religion, or gender...... This transcends sports....... BTW, And I am not trying to argue with you, or lash out against you.... You have a point, and so do I.... that is all....

If you wanna say something, just say it.... Im neutral, it's irrelevant. your analogies are conundrums in there own right... LOL....

Rookies are hazed period... Not because they are gay, or have webbed toes, those are just the vehicles used to pick at a perceived weak spot. So should Michael Sam not be hazed just because he is gay?

My thought process has a little more detachment than most. What I see here are three distinct items.
~ First item being pure job performance, and in regards to that being gay is irrelevant. It does not effect how he plays the game.
~ Secondly is the locker-room and that is all about acceptance by his peers which I believe what he has done actually hurts him more than help him.
~ Lastly is on the field but not in regards to play but the smack talk that happens. No matter how much his locker room accepts him being gay, it will not translate well for him on the field.

This is just my opinion but he has set himself up to fail. Rosa Parks bought a ticket, got on, and sat down. Wade Davis played in the NFL and after playing came out and said he was gay. Those are two examples of how you do something first and then come out to show that the prejudices were not warranted. An ex Nazi doesn't show up to a Bar Mitzva with a red band around his arm to prove he is harmless, he will never get a fair chance. He shows up dressed normally, participates, then afterwards if he has something to prove tells everyone "this is what I am or was and you have nothing to fear or hate".

If we are talking about gay rights and laws that effect the same, Michael Sam did nothing to effect that cause, as there are no laws preventing him from playing in the NFL. If we are talking about acceptance; well then there isn't much that can be done to force that is there? As a society we tend to paint things in a rather broad brush stroke but the reality is much different. Not every agreement or disagreement is filled with passion to the point of love, hate, or fear. What creates the problem is the forceful nature of which "some" items are handled. You can no more force someone to embrace homosexuality as you can to force someone to embrace and accept the way some Seattle Seahawk fans act.

I do not believe people should have to prove that they are benign to be accepted but they want to, and there is a way to go about doing that.

Back to the broad brush: To state that all disagreement with homosexuality is because of fear and that fear is based on ignorance or narrow mind; is to deny the damage that has been done by many Catholic Priests for many years... It is just as narrow minded as saying all homosexuals are bad, all conservatives are racist, women cant drive... The persecution or defense of any group as a whole is flawed.

I do not question gays, I question people with agendas....

alleycat_126 · 02-10-2014, 11:55 PM

Originally Posted by TheOak

Try reading my post through a more neutral lens.

Unless you are of the mind that sexual orientation effects a persons job performance, it is irrelevant. Sexual orientation is less relevant than race, age, or gender, from a job performance view; and they are pretty damned irrelevant. His being gay is as relevant to the NFL as his coach being hetero..... If he is.... If he isn't, it's still irrelevant.

That may apply to every other job in every other arena, but not in any NFL, or NBA locker rooms... There's hazing, as we found there's bullying...and you don't have to be anything but different in order to be a victim of it..... This is just as relevant as breaking through barriers for race, religion, or gender...... This transcends sports....... BTW, And I am not trying to argue with you, or lash out against you.... You have a point, and so do I.... that is all....

If you wanna say something, just say it.... Im neutral, it's irrelevant. your analogies are conundrums in there own right... LOL.... [/QUOTE]

burningmetal · 02-11-2014, 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by alleycat_126

irrelevant for who? certainly not irrelevant for the millions of people who feel they have to hide what they are for fear of being persecuted, or worse.....

Basically about as absurd as you saying everything but, there's no fear or hate towards anybody who wants to come out and be gay in today's society.... I hope I said that right, I took all the big words out..... Lol.....

Just exactly who is persecuting them anymore? I don't get any special treatment for being straight, but this guy sure will for being gay, and don't even tell me you don't know what I'm talking about.

The pressure is far more on people like me who disagree with that lifestyle. I don't have much in the way of freedom of speech when it comes this type of subject. But this guy decides to come out and tell the world something that no one was previously the least bit concerned with, and he is now being treated as a hero.

ScottF · 02-11-2014, 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

Just exactly who is persecuting them anymore?

um, 36 states, the Federal government (DOMA), Chick-fil-a, Urban Oufitters, Putin, Ahmadinejad, the Boy Scouts, and high school jocks everywhere

Do you seriously believe you are more persecuted for your beliefs than a gay person is for their lifestyle?

and by 'anymore', do you mean that the persecution should continue?

02-10-2014, 10:05 AM	#1
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,047	Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted If you do not want issues to be made, do not make them. Why should any entity or person be accepting of something that is irrelevant? This whole acceptance movement is such a tangled web of confusion. Preaching acceptance from a podium of intolerance is more than slight hypocrisy. Stop accepting the lies that our culture is attempting frame disagreement in. The entire mindset that because you disagree with someones lifestyle means you must fear or hate them is absurd. Just as absurd as thinking that if you love someone you agree with everything they believe or do. Compassion is not defined as compromising your convictions and empathy is not agreement. Danno, SapperSaint, jeanpierre and 4 others like this.
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

02-10-2014, 03:01 PM	#2
alleycat_126 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Katy, Tx a suburb of Houston Posts: 2,089	Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted Originally Posted by TheOak Why should any entity or person be accepting of something that is irrelevant? irrelevant for who? certainly not irrelevant for the millions of people who feel they have to hide what they are for fear of being persecuted, or worse..... The entire mindset that because you disagree with someones lifestyle means you must fear or hate them is absurd. Basically about as absurd as you saying everything but, there's no fear or hate towards anybody who wants to come out and be gay in today's society.... I hope I said that right, I took all the big words out..... Lol.....

02-10-2014, 04:09 PM	#3
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,047	Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted Originally Posted by alleycat_126 irrelevant for who? certainly not irrelevant for the millions of people who feel they have to hide what they are for fear of being persecuted, or worse..... Basically about as absurd as you saying everything but, there's no fear or hate towards anybody who wants to come out and be gay in today's society.... I hope I said that right, I took all the big words out..... Lol..... Try reading my post through a more neutral lens. Unless you are of the mind that sexual orientation effects a persons job performance, it is irrelevant. Sexual orientation is less relevant than race, age, or gender, from a job performance view; and they are pretty damned irrelevant. His being gay is as relevant to the NFL as his coach being hetero..... If he is.... If he isn't, it's still irrelevant. On the second part you completely misconstrued my words. Just because I wouldn't become a vegetarian doesn't mean I fear or hate them. Just because I eat meat doesn't mean I love and am in complete support of other meat eaters. I never said there are not simple minded people that see things as either right or wrong, and not what they actually are.... Different. I made a completely neutral post but you felt there was a need to defend something. What ever your reason is, it's yours. Another irrelevant item. If society spent more time focusing on things that actually have relevance the world would be a better place. Then there is the hypocrisy of judgment. Your lashing out about narrow sighted fools judging and labeling homosexuals, by judging and labeling those people. Incorrectly I might add since I said nothing negative about gays.... Only dumbassed Americans.
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

02-10-2014, 08:34 PM	#4
ScottF 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Atlanta Posts: 6,324	Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted Originally Posted by TheOak Try reading my post through a more neutral lens. Unless you are of the mind that sexual orientation effects a persons job performance, it is irrelevant. Sexual orientation is less relevant than race, age, or gender, from a job performance view; and they are pretty damned irrelevant. His being gay is as relevant to the NFL as his coach being hetero..... If he is.... If he isn't, it's still irrelevant. . In most of society, yes. In the NFL, unfortunately, no. From the hazing incidents, stories of players baling on teammates they don't like, to homophobic comments (not Vilma; that was ridiculous), we know that the NFL is still an old boys club, filled with bullies and other narrow-minded types. See Richie Incognito for a recent reference. End of the day, it's a team game, and if your teammates don't support you, you can't be successful. Sad, but I don't think this guy will survive an NFL locker room. I wish him well, because it is well past time here is an interesting timeline- openly gay politicians, athletes and entertainers. A lot you will know (H.Milk, Sally Ride), and they date back to the 60's. List of lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender firsts by year - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia So, how is it that in 50 years that no active professional athlete has come out? Because they know what the backlash would be.

02-11-2014, 12:11 AM	#5
ClintSaints 500th Post Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Glendale, CA Posts: 603	Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted Originally Posted by ScottF In most of society, yes. In the NFL, unfortunately, no. From the hazing incidents, stories of players baling on teammates they don't like, to homophobic comments (not Vilma; that was ridiculous), we know that the NFL is still an old boys club, filled with bullies and other narrow-minded types. See Richie Incognito for a recent reference. End of the day, it's a team game, and if your teammates don't support you, you can't be successful. Sad, but I don't think this guy will survive an NFL locker room. I wish him well, because it is well past time here is an interesting timeline- openly gay politicians, athletes and entertainers. A lot you will know (H.Milk, Sally Ride), and they date back to the 60's. List of lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender firsts by year - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia So, how is it that in 50 years that no active professional athlete has come out? Because they know what the backlash would be. 50 years ago, there was no gay rights movement. Michael Sam came out to his entire team in Missouri last August. Warren Moon has stated publicly that there were two gay guys on his team that everyone in the locker room knew about and got along with fine. Don't underestimate the NFL locker rooms. The only thing that really matters in most locker rooms (but not all) is WINNING.

02-11-2014, 05:32 AM	#6
ScottF 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Atlanta Posts: 6,324	Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted Originally Posted by ClintSaints 50 years ago, there was no gay rights movement. Michael Sam came out to his entire team in Missouri last August. Warren Moon has stated publicly that there were two gay guys on his team that everyone in the locker room knew about and got along with fine. Don't underestimate the NFL locker rooms. The only thing that really matters in most locker rooms (but not all) is WINNING. Are you saying he came out for the 'movement' ? The 'movement' has been going on for 25 years. Some states have had same-sex marriage for 10 years (Vermont longer). I completely get your point about winning, but looking at Kluwe, J.Martin, Ayanbadejo, and the fact that not one player has ever come out, that tells a different story. With injured reserve, practice squad and active rosters, there are 2000 NFL players each year. About 4% of Americans are openly gay, which would equal about 80 players being out. Instead there are zero, and there's always been zero. If not the locker room mentality, then what?

02-11-2014, 08:14 AM	#7
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,047	Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted Originally Posted by ScottF In most of society, yes. In the NFL, unfortunately, no. From the hazing incidents, stories of players baling on teammates they don't like, to homophobic comments (not Vilma; that was ridiculous), we know that the NFL is still an old boys club, filled with bullies and other narrow-minded types. See Richie Incognito for a recent reference. End of the day, it's a team game, and if your teammates don't support you, you can't be successful. Sad, but I don't think this guy will survive an NFL locker room. I wish him well, because it is well past time here is an interesting timeline- openly gay politicians, athletes and entertainers. A lot you will know (H.Milk, Sally Ride), and they date back to the 60's. List of lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender firsts by year - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia So, how is it that in 50 years that no active professional athlete has come out? Because they know what the backlash would be. Originally Posted by alleycat_126 That may apply to every other job in every other arena, but not in any NFL, or NBA locker rooms... There's hazing, as we found there's bullying...and you don't have to be anything but different in order to be a victim of it..... This is just as relevant as breaking through barriers for race, religion, or gender...... This transcends sports....... BTW, And I am not trying to argue with you, or lash out against you.... You have a point, and so do I.... that is all.... If you wanna say something, just say it.... Im neutral, it's irrelevant. your analogies are conundrums in there own right... LOL.... Rookies are hazed period... Not because they are gay, or have webbed toes, those are just the vehicles used to pick at a perceived weak spot. So should Michael Sam not be hazed just because he is gay? My thought process has a little more detachment than most. What I see here are three distinct items. ~ First item being pure job performance, and in regards to that being gay is irrelevant. It does not effect how he plays the game. ~ Secondly is the locker-room and that is all about acceptance by his peers which I believe what he has done actually hurts him more than help him. ~ Lastly is on the field but not in regards to play but the smack talk that happens. No matter how much his locker room accepts him being gay, it will not translate well for him on the field. This is just my opinion but he has set himself up to fail. Rosa Parks bought a ticket, got on, and sat down. Wade Davis played in the NFL and after playing came out and said he was gay. Those are two examples of how you do something first and then come out to show that the prejudices were not warranted. An ex Nazi doesn't show up to a Bar Mitzva with a red band around his arm to prove he is harmless, he will never get a fair chance. He shows up dressed normally, participates, then afterwards if he has something to prove tells everyone "this is what I am or was and you have nothing to fear or hate". If we are talking about gay rights and laws that effect the same, Michael Sam did nothing to effect that cause, as there are no laws preventing him from playing in the NFL. If we are talking about acceptance; well then there isn't much that can be done to force that is there? As a society we tend to paint things in a rather broad brush stroke but the reality is much different. Not every agreement or disagreement is filled with passion to the point of love, hate, or fear. What creates the problem is the forceful nature of which "some" items are handled. You can no more force someone to embrace homosexuality as you can to force someone to embrace and accept the way some Seattle Seahawk fans act. I do not believe people should have to prove that they are benign to be accepted but they want to, and there is a way to go about doing that. Back to the broad brush: To state that all disagreement with homosexuality is because of fear and that fear is based on ignorance or narrow mind; is to deny the damage that has been done by many Catholic Priests for many years... It is just as narrow minded as saying all homosexuals are bad, all conservatives are racist, women cant drive... The persecution or defense of any group as a whole is flawed. I do not question gays, I question people with agendas....
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

02-10-2014, 11:55 PM	#8
alleycat_126 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Katy, Tx a suburb of Houston Posts: 2,089	Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted Originally Posted by TheOak Try reading my post through a more neutral lens. Unless you are of the mind that sexual orientation effects a persons job performance, it is irrelevant. Sexual orientation is less relevant than race, age, or gender, from a job performance view; and they are pretty damned irrelevant. His being gay is as relevant to the NFL as his coach being hetero..... If he is.... If he isn't, it's still irrelevant. That may apply to every other job in every other arena, but not in any NFL, or NBA locker rooms... There's hazing, as we found there's bullying...and you don't have to be anything but different in order to be a victim of it..... This is just as relevant as breaking through barriers for race, religion, or gender...... This transcends sports....... BTW, And I am not trying to argue with you, or lash out against you.... You have a point, and so do I.... that is all.... If you wanna say something, just say it.... Im neutral, it's irrelevant. your analogies are conundrums in there own right... LOL.... [/QUOTE]
	You shouldn't throw stones if you live in a glass house, and if have a glass jaw you should watch your mouth..... cause I'll break your face!!! -50 cent

02-11-2014, 08:01 AM	#9
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted Originally Posted by alleycat_126 irrelevant for who? certainly not irrelevant for the millions of people who feel they have to hide what they are for fear of being persecuted, or worse..... Basically about as absurd as you saying everything but, there's no fear or hate towards anybody who wants to come out and be gay in today's society.... I hope I said that right, I took all the big words out..... Lol..... Just exactly who is persecuting them anymore? I don't get any special treatment for being straight, but this guy sure will for being gay, and don't even tell me you don't know what I'm talking about. The pressure is far more on people like me who disagree with that lifestyle. I don't have much in the way of freedom of speech when it comes this type of subject. But this guy decides to come out and tell the world something that no one was previously the least bit concerned with, and he is now being treated as a hero. halloween 65 and Mr.Riaton like this.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

02-11-2014, 08:30 AM	#10
ScottF 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Atlanta Posts: 6,324	Re: Michael Sam comes out, An openly gay player very likely to be drafted Originally Posted by burningmetal Just exactly who is persecuting them anymore? um, 36 states, the Federal government (DOMA), Chick-fil-a, Urban Oufitters, Putin, Ahmadinejad, the Boy Scouts, and high school jocks everywhere Do you seriously believe you are more persecuted for your beliefs than a gay person is for their lifestyle? and by 'anymore', do you mean that the persecution should continue?

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