NFL's most underappreciated players: One for each NFC team

K Major · 05-20-2020, 09:12 AM

Any guess (without reading the article first) who the Saints most under appreciated player is? Anyone ? ... link below.

This is a good talking piece.

https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-s-most-...-each-nfc-team

frydaddy · 05-20-2020, 10:22 AM

Saw this article earlier. It brings up some good points, but it totally ignores his tendency to blow it in crucial situations. It's great that he plays well most of the time, but when your mistakes come at the worst possible times and cost your team W's then you're not really that good. I see this year as his last chance to prove himself, or he'll be looking for a new team.

K Major · 05-20-2020, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by frydaddy

Saw this article earlier. It brings up some good points, but it totally ignores his tendency to blow it in crucial situations. It's great that he plays well most of the time, but when your mistakes come at the worst possible times and cost your team W's then you're not really that good. I see this year as his last chance to prove himself, or he'll be looking for a new team.

Agreed.

Having Malcolm Jenkins in his back pocket should help.

I often wonder if some of those late blunders (Vikings wildcard game of 2019) are actually on Defensive Coordinator Dennis Allen & not so much the player. Marcus is grading well, just not so much in crucial game and season ending moments.

frydaddy · 05-20-2020, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by K Major

Agreed.

Having Malcolm Jenkins in his back pocket should help.

I often wonder if some of those late blunders (Vikings wildcard game of 2019) are actually on Defensive Coordinator Dennis Allen & not so much the player. Marcus is grading well, just not so much in crucial game and season ending moments.

You may be on to something there. DA's end of half/end of game calls are highly suspect, and those are the times that Marcus has been most frequently burned. I have respect for DA, but it wouldn't hurt my feelings too much if he decided to move on after this year.

Back to Marcus, I really hope having MJ here to mentor him helps him elevate his game. I like the guy, he seems like a good person off the field, and he was one of our dear departed Hagan's "guys" during the last draft he was with us for, so I want to see him succeed even more so for sentimental reasons.

jeanpierre · 05-22-2020, 08:30 AM

Mr. Marcus...

Sadly, idiot talking heads and casual fans only remember him for one play as a rookie...

And most ignore Payton's play-calling, game management that let the Vikes back into the game...

K Major · 05-22-2020, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

Mr. Marcus...

Sadly, idiot talking heads and casual fans only remember him for one play as a rookie...

And most ignore Payton's play-calling, game management that let the Vikes back into the game...

Do you think the Saints will look to re sign Marcus before his agent's asking price increases? He's only 23 years of age.

Read an article from John Sigler - Marcus is tied with All Pro Bears safety Eddie Jackson (who recently got paid) with 10 interceptions since 2017.

My biggest concern with MW is his inability to tackle in space. Gotta clean that up.

jeanpierre · 05-22-2020, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by K Major

Do you think the Saints will look to re sign Marcus before his agent's asking price increases? He's only 23 years of age.

Read an article from John Sigler - Marcus is tied with All Pro Bears safety Eddie Jackson (who recently got paid) with 10 interceptions since 2017.

My biggest concern with MW is his inability to tackle in space. Gotta clean that up.

Well, irregardless of the flaws we see in PFF's subjective grading, he's still regarded as one of the top three free safeties in the league, and Honestly, I'd re-sign Mr. Marcus before Kamara...

First, he's been healthy and will likely stay healthy and play longer than Kamara, a running back who's already showing signs of wear, tear...

Second, he's still really young and has already played in some pretty big games...

Third, Marcus hasn't had any trouble or drama, so he's a guy you can build around for the coming years...

Finally, and most importantly, he's played really well for us and has made his share of plays - folks forget he flipped the momentum in that 2017-18 Vikings Playoff Game with that interception and return...

K Major · 05-22-2020, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

First, he's been healthy and will likely stay healthy and play longer than Kamara, a running back who's already showing signs of wear, tear...

Second, he's still really young and has already played in some pretty big games...

Third, Marcus hasn't had any trouble or drama, so he's a guy you can build around for the coming years...

Finally, and most importantly, he's played really well for us and has made his share of plays - folks forget he flipped the momentum in that 2017-18 Vikings Playoff Game with that interception and return...

All valid arguments. And for the most part he's been available (see David O new deal) on Sundays.

I'm hopeful Marcus performs at a high level in 2020

.

SaintGnome · 05-22-2020, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by K Major

Agreed.

I often wonder if some of those late blunders (Vikings wildcard game of 2019) are actually on Defensive Coordinator Dennis Allen & not so much the player. Marcus is grading well, just not so much in crucial game and season ending moments.

As DC, it's DA's job to put people in the right place, but in the end it's the player's job to make the friggin' play. In the Minnesota game Marcus was right there, with the receiver, in perfect position to make the play and he whiffed. That's a DC's fault? Do you think DA told him to close his eyes and go low (too low)?! I've seen stretches, but that's really thin. I've seen other games, not just that one where frankly it looks like Marcus closes his eyes before impact and has whiffed.

K Major · 05-22-2020, 08:54 PM

Originally Posted by SaintGnome

As DC, it's DA's job to put people in the right place, but in the end it's the player's job to make the friggin' play. In the Minnesota game Marcus was right there, with the receiver, in perfect position to make the play and he whiffed. That's a DC's fault? Do you think DA told him to close his eyes and go low (too low)?! I've seen stretches, but that's really thin. I've seen other games, not just that one where frankly it looks like Marcus closes his eyes before impact and has whiffed.

SG, I think you are missing the bigger picture here. So basically you are speaking of less than 3% of Marcus Williams overall body of work where you outlined that he "whiffed". I remember reading an article from Domonique Foxworth (former NFL CB/now tv analyst) following the Minnesota Miracle that highlighted Williams wasn't the only failure on that play. He pointed out that the play call by Dennis Allen wasn't good. Saints played a type of Cover 2 shell/fence when they should have played a Cover 3 shell fence. The main problem was Robertson dropping into the middle of the field with no one to guard and it forced a DB to have to guard the route by the TE. The previous play had Robertson picking up the route and should have been the same play call.

Circle back to 2019 last minute wildcard loss vs Vikings on a poor play call that gave up 40+ yards to Adam Thielen ... equally as bad. It was a 5 man pressure vs a 6 man protection with the rest of the DB's/LB's in man and the one FS in zone. The CB (Robinson) was in press coverage and then settled into a trail technique. Only way to beat this was over the top. The Vikings called two routes that threatened the Seam and held Williams in place long enough for Thielen to beat Robinson. The 5 man rush of course didn't get there and Robinson was beat and you can't help but think...why do you call that play with your best CB on the sideline?

The package was 4DL, 2LB, 5 DB's and it featured Jordan as a stand up Rusher and Chauncey Gardner as the other stand up rusher in a 3-4 look with a TNT look among the other Dlineman. It was sort of an inside stunt with Hendrickson playing on the inside shoulder of the LT and going inside leaving 5'11 Johnson to rush against a 6'5 + TE. None of the dlineman outside of Jordan got pressure and CJGJ was of course stonewalled.

It certainly looks like Williams gets there late but he wasn't in a position to play that route at all and if that's Lattimore you feel much better about that being a deflection. The blitz,, the coverage, the front, the personnel. None of that did any favors for anyone defensively.

Dennis Allen is the lone common denominator in a bunch of "meh" situations. Arguably after an off sophomore season you could say that Williams was part of the problem, but his 3rd year was a superb bounce back depending on how you view PFF Grades. Yet the gaffes and big plays(3rd in 40+ yard plays allowed) still exist...eyeballs should definitely be turned towards Allen now.

Believe it or not, coaching and putting players in positions to succeed still matters at this level of football.

05-20-2020, 09:12 AM	#1
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,619 Blog Entries: 3	NFL's most underappreciated players: One for each NFC team Any guess (without reading the article first) who the Saints most under appreciated player is? Anyone ? ... link below. This is a good talking piece. https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-s-most-...-each-nfc-team

05-20-2020, 10:22 AM	#2
frydaddy 1000 Posts + Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Lafayette Posts: 1,950 Blog Entries: 1	Re: NFL's most underappreciated players: One for each NFC team Saw this article earlier. It brings up some good points, but it totally ignores his tendency to blow it in crucial situations. It's great that he plays well most of the time, but when your mistakes come at the worst possible times and cost your team W's then you're not really that good. I see this year as his last chance to prove himself, or he'll be looking for a new team.

05-20-2020, 10:48 AM	#3
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,619 Blog Entries: 3	Re: NFL's most underappreciated players: One for each NFC team Originally Posted by frydaddy Saw this article earlier. It brings up some good points, but it totally ignores his tendency to blow it in crucial situations. It's great that he plays well most of the time, but when your mistakes come at the worst possible times and cost your team W's then you're not really that good. I see this year as his last chance to prove himself, or he'll be looking for a new team. Agreed. Having Malcolm Jenkins in his back pocket should help. I often wonder if some of those late blunders (Vikings wildcard game of 2019) are actually on Defensive Coordinator Dennis Allen & not so much the player. Marcus is grading well, just not so much in crucial game and season ending moments. frydaddy likes this.

05-20-2020, 11:30 AM	#4
frydaddy 1000 Posts + Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Lafayette Posts: 1,950 Blog Entries: 1	Re: NFL's most underappreciated players: One for each NFC team Originally Posted by K Major Agreed. Having Malcolm Jenkins in his back pocket should help. I often wonder if some of those late blunders (Vikings wildcard game of 2019) are actually on Defensive Coordinator Dennis Allen & not so much the player. Marcus is grading well, just not so much in crucial game and season ending moments. You may be on to something there. DA's end of half/end of game calls are highly suspect, and those are the times that Marcus has been most frequently burned. I have respect for DA, but it wouldn't hurt my feelings too much if he decided to move on after this year. Back to Marcus, I really hope having MJ here to mentor him helps him elevate his game. I like the guy, he seems like a good person off the field, and he was one of our dear departed Hagan's "guys" during the last draft he was with us for, so I want to see him succeed even more so for sentimental reasons. K Major likes this.
	Mais forte do que a morte

05-22-2020, 08:30 AM	#5
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: NFL's most underappreciated players: One for each NFC team Mr. Marcus... Sadly, idiot talking heads and casual fans only remember him for one play as a rookie... And most ignore Payton's play-calling, game management that let the Vikes back into the game... K Major likes this.

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05-22-2020, 08:48 AM	#6
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,619 Blog Entries: 3	Re: NFL's most underappreciated players: One for each NFC team Originally Posted by jeanpierre Mr. Marcus... Sadly, idiot talking heads and casual fans only remember him for one play as a rookie... And most ignore Payton's play-calling, game management that let the Vikes back into the game... Do you think the Saints will look to re sign Marcus before his agent's asking price increases? He's only 23 years of age. Read an article from John Sigler - Marcus is tied with All Pro Bears safety Eddie Jackson (who recently got paid) with 10 interceptions since 2017. My biggest concern with MW is his inability to tackle in space. Gotta clean that up. jeanpierre likes this.

05-22-2020, 12:19 PM	#7
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: NFL's most underappreciated players: One for each NFC team Originally Posted by K Major Do you think the Saints will look to re sign Marcus before his agent's asking price increases? He's only 23 years of age. Read an article from John Sigler - Marcus is tied with All Pro Bears safety Eddie Jackson (who recently got paid) with 10 interceptions since 2017. My biggest concern with MW is his inability to tackle in space. Gotta clean that up. Well, irregardless of the flaws we see in PFF's subjective grading, he's still regarded as one of the top three free safeties in the league, and Honestly, I'd re-sign Mr. Marcus before Kamara... First, he's been healthy and will likely stay healthy and play longer than Kamara, a running back who's already showing signs of wear, tear... Second, he's still really young and has already played in some pretty big games... Third, Marcus hasn't had any trouble or drama, so he's a guy you can build around for the coming years... Finally, and most importantly, he's played really well for us and has made his share of plays - folks forget he flipped the momentum in that 2017-18 Vikings Playoff Game with that interception and return... K Major likes this.
	It's not that my way is the right way, I just make the right way my way... Last edited by jeanpierre; 05-22-2020 at 01:57 PM..

05-22-2020, 01:45 PM	#8
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,619 Blog Entries: 3	Re: NFL's most underappreciated players: One for each NFC team Originally Posted by jeanpierre First, he's been healthy and will likely stay healthy and play longer than Kamara, a running back who's already showing signs of wear, tear... Second, he's still really young and has already played in some pretty big games... Third, Marcus hasn't had any trouble or drama, so he's a guy you can build around for the coming years... Finally, and most importantly, he's played really well for us and has made his share of plays - folks forget he flipped the momentum in that 2017-18 Vikings Playoff Game with that interception and return... All valid arguments. And for the most part he's been available (see David O new deal) on Sundays. I'm hopeful Marcus performs at a high level in 2020 . jeanpierre likes this.

05-22-2020, 08:23 PM	#9
SaintGnome 500th Post Join Date: Jul 2017 Location: Bradenton,FL Posts: 642	Re: NFL's most underappreciated players: One for each NFC team Originally Posted by K Major Agreed. I often wonder if some of those late blunders (Vikings wildcard game of 2019) are actually on Defensive Coordinator Dennis Allen & not so much the player. Marcus is grading well, just not so much in crucial game and season ending moments. As DC, it's DA's job to put people in the right place, but in the end it's the player's job to make the friggin' play. In the Minnesota game Marcus was right there, with the receiver, in perfect position to make the play and he whiffed. That's a DC's fault? Do you think DA told him to close his eyes and go low (too low)?! I've seen stretches, but that's really thin. I've seen other games, not just that one where frankly it looks like Marcus closes his eyes before impact and has whiffed.

05-22-2020, 08:54 PM	#10
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,619 Blog Entries: 3	Re: NFL's most underappreciated players: One for each NFC team Originally Posted by SaintGnome As DC, it's DA's job to put people in the right place, but in the end it's the player's job to make the friggin' play. In the Minnesota game Marcus was right there, with the receiver, in perfect position to make the play and he whiffed. That's a DC's fault? Do you think DA told him to close his eyes and go low (too low)?! I've seen stretches, but that's really thin. I've seen other games, not just that one where frankly it looks like Marcus closes his eyes before impact and has whiffed. SG, I think you are missing the bigger picture here. So basically you are speaking of less than 3% of Marcus Williams overall body of work where you outlined that he "whiffed". I remember reading an article from Domonique Foxworth (former NFL CB/now tv analyst) following the Minnesota Miracle that highlighted Williams wasn't the only failure on that play. He pointed out that the play call by Dennis Allen wasn't good. Saints played a type of Cover 2 shell/fence when they should have played a Cover 3 shell fence. The main problem was Robertson dropping into the middle of the field with no one to guard and it forced a DB to have to guard the route by the TE. The previous play had Robertson picking up the route and should have been the same play call. Circle back to 2019 last minute wildcard loss vs Vikings on a poor play call that gave up 40+ yards to Adam Thielen ... equally as bad. It was a 5 man pressure vs a 6 man protection with the rest of the DB's/LB's in man and the one FS in zone. The CB (Robinson) was in press coverage and then settled into a trail technique. Only way to beat this was over the top. The Vikings called two routes that threatened the Seam and held Williams in place long enough for Thielen to beat Robinson. The 5 man rush of course didn't get there and Robinson was beat and you can't help but think...why do you call that play with your best CB on the sideline? The package was 4DL, 2LB, 5 DB's and it featured Jordan as a stand up Rusher and Chauncey Gardner as the other stand up rusher in a 3-4 look with a TNT look among the other Dlineman. It was sort of an inside stunt with Hendrickson playing on the inside shoulder of the LT and going inside leaving 5'11 Johnson to rush against a 6'5 + TE. None of the dlineman outside of Jordan got pressure and CJGJ was of course stonewalled. It certainly looks like Williams gets there late but he wasn't in a position to play that route at all and if that's Lattimore you feel much better about that being a deflection. The blitz,, the coverage, the front, the personnel. None of that did any favors for anyone defensively. Dennis Allen is the lone common denominator in a bunch of "meh" situations. Arguably after an off sophomore season you could say that Williams was part of the problem, but his 3rd year was a superb bounce back depending on how you view PFF Grades. Yet the gaffes and big plays(3rd in 40+ yard plays allowed) still exist...eyeballs should definitely be turned towards Allen now. Believe it or not, coaching and putting players in positions to succeed still matters at this level of football. jeanpierre and MarchingOn like this.
	"We're a violent team & a tough team. We find ways to put ourselves in position to win. We just have to WIN". Alvin Kamara