New Orleans Saints Forums - blackandgold.com

New Orleans Saints Forums - blackandgold.com (https://blackandgold.com/community/)
-   Saints (https://blackandgold.com/saints/)
-   -   NOLA.com Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick (https://blackandgold.com/saints/100473-saints-draft-houston-de-payton-turner-first-round-pick.html)

SmashMouth 04-30-2021 09:58 AM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
We all want to steal talent in the draft, like we did with Kamara. While this guy was speedily trending up in the DE rankings pre-draft, there is chance we did this with this kid. He was a DT converted to a DE. His numbers for such a short stint at DE are eyeopening. He has a wingspan of a 747 (what NFL hall of famer had such a similar wingspan?) . And most importantly, his IQ is off the charts.

SmashMouth 04-30-2021 10:08 AM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
PFF Grade

R1 (28) NEW ORLEANS SAINTS: EDGE PAYTON TURNER, HOUSTON

Pick Grade: Below Average

Turner might be the biggest surprise first-round pick thus far. He broke out on a small sample in 2020 against subpar competition with a 90.0 pass-rush grade across four starts but has a coveted physical profile. He’s 6-foot-6 and 270 pounds with 35-inch arms and plays a physical game. Turner is also a versatile piece with impressive bend for his size. It’s a risky bet that could pay off big for the Saints, but there were other directions they should have gone here.

Boston Saint 04-30-2021 10:10 AM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido (Post 919442)
What gives you the idea that he would still be there at 60 or that he wasn't valued at 28? Something you read from others that really don't know either? These people that come up with these ranking do not have a whole staff that spends hundreds of hours researching these players. Nor do they have the opportunity to interview these players multiple times. According to Turner himself his agent told him to expect to be picked between 20 and 40 and that's just right where he went.

This is why I have always thought this pick prognostication business is meaningless. None of them have the access or the resources to fully know what they are doing and it simply results in the general public buying into their nonsense.

The only way to know a player's true draft value is to wait until he is drafted.

I said the likelihood of him being there. The reason I bring that up is, as it’s been pointed out, the highest any draft speculation had him going was 60 according to Chris. Obviously it’s an Inexact science, but so is horse racing and I would take a person’s advice that is knowledgeable at the track vs a novice.

They could have taken the risk of drafting another player(one of more need since, as best, he will be part of a rotation at DE and the team is in need of a good LB say) at 28 and trading up in the second for Payton. By most accounts, they overpaid.

AsylumGuido 04-30-2021 10:16 AM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boston Saint (Post 919449)
I said the likelihood of him being there. The reason I bring that up is, as it’s been pointed out, the highest any draft speculation had him going was 60 according to Chris. Obviously it’s an Inexact science, but so is horse racing and I would take a person’s advice that is knowledgeable at the track vs a novice.

They could have taken the risk of drafting another player(one of more need since, as best, he will be part of a rotation at DE and the team is in need of a good LB say) at 28 and trading up in the second for Payton. By most accounts, they overpaid.

The person who's advice you are taking is a novice as compared to those that actually do the real drafting. That's the point. You are placing your trust in someone who is underqualified based upon lack of resources and access.

And as for those "most accounts", those are the same people.

You are proposing that the Saints draft for need over drafting who they have determined is the best player available. I certainly hope they never do that.

Boston Saint 04-30-2021 10:16 AM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
Bottom line is it smells to me of Baptiste, Davenport and other “reaches” the team has taken on draft prospects that were surprise moves according to draft analysts. I felt good about Lattimore pick at the time. I don’t feel good about this one. Maybe I’m wrong and they hit on a Kamara.

Boston Saint 04-30-2021 10:17 AM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
No I’m not. You’re wrong

AsylumGuido 04-30-2021 10:18 AM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boston Saint (Post 919452)
Bottom line is it smells to me of Baptiste, Davenport and other “reaches” the team has taken on draft prospects that were surprise moves according to draft analysts. I felt good about Lattimore pick at the time. I don’t feel good about this one. Maybe I’m wrong and they hit on a Kamara.

You are looking at a description of a rose to ascertain your smell. Those that make the picks have actually held that rose in their hands and experienced the fragrance themselves.

Boston Saint 04-30-2021 10:20 AM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido (Post 919454)
You are looking at a description of a rose to ascertain your smell. Those that make the picks have actually held that rose in their hands and experienced the fragrance themselves.

The smell of roses is not what I detect from your posts Guido. It’s the manure they grow in.

Sainters7 04-30-2021 10:21 AM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lee909 (Post 919395)
It's not the player I hate, it's the fact this has added depth to a position when you have glaring needs at others.

Yep. And I also hate how it's basically Payton/Loomis admitting they blew it on the Davenport pick. The whole thing's just frustrating, and disappointing when there's obvious massive holes at CB2 & OLB. I'm sure they'll still address those holes on Day 2/3, but it's not going to be a first round blue chip talent we wanted to see there.

The upside at least, is it still addressed D and at a coveted position. And unlike Davenport, at least Turner has drive and works hard. I'm not going to try to convince myself I like this pick because that'll just annoy me...but I'll at least leave it as a wait & see, he could work out well and be a solid player for us.

K Major 04-30-2021 10:23 AM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
Take that PFF grade on Turner with a grain of salt.

They've been wrong a lot in their evaluations of 1st rounders over the years.

AsylumGuido 04-30-2021 10:25 AM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sainters7 (Post 919456)
Yep. And I also hate how it's basically Payton/Loomis admitting they blew it on the Davenport pick. The whole thing's just frustrating, and disappointing when there's obvious massive holes at CB2 & OLB. I'm sure they'll still address those holes on Day 2/3, but it's not going to be a first round blue chip talent we wanted to see there.

The upside at least, is it still addressed D and at a coveted position. And unlike Davenport, at least Turner has drive and works hard. I'm not going to try to convince myself I like this pick because that'll just annoy me...but I'll at least leave it as a wait & see, he could work out well and be a solid player for us.

What makes you think Turner is a replacement for Davenport? I expect Davenport to be around for years and to be a force. Turner is filling Hendrickson's void, instead.

ChrisXVI 04-30-2021 10:28 AM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido (Post 919459)
What makes you think Turner is a replacement for Davenport? I expect Davenport to be around for years and to be a force. Turner is filling Hendrickson's void, instead.

To play devil’s advocate, Hendrickson was filling Davenport’s void so it only stands to reason that Turner will be doing the same as Davenport has never been healthy.

AsylumGuido 04-30-2021 10:32 AM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisXVI (Post 919460)
To play devil’s advocate, Hendrickson was filling Davenport’s void so it only stands to reason that Turner will be doing the same as Davenport has never been healthy.

The DE's play a rotation. They will continue to play a rotation. We'll see Jordan, Davenport, Turner, and Granderson, just as we saw Jordan, Davenport, Hendrickson, and Granderson.

The difference is that I see Turner as having far more upside than Hendrickson. You know he got his nickname T-Rex because of his short arms, right?

ChrisXVI 04-30-2021 10:43 AM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido (Post 919462)
The DE's play a rotation. They will continue to play a rotation. We'll see Jordan, Davenport, Turner, and Granderson, just as we saw Jordan, Davenport, Hendrickson, and Granderson.

The difference is that I see Turner as having far more upside than Hendrickson. You know he got his nickname T-Rex because of his short arms, right?

Our DE’s don’t really play a rotation. Our DT’s sub in and out based on down and distance. Cam Jordan plays damn near every snap and the other DE spot has just been filled by role players because we haven’t found the right guy. I’m thinking Turner is the answer.

Boston Saint 04-30-2021 11:23 AM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
You have Jordan. You signed Davenport’s 5th year option. You sign Kpassagnon, a 6’ 7” physical freak as a free agent. Then draft another DE project in the first round when he was from a non power conference and not rated as a first round pick. Spin that all you want, Putting it kindly it’s a questionable pick.

AsylumGuido 04-30-2021 11:27 AM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisXVI (Post 919463)
Our DE’s don’t really play a rotation. Our DT’s sub in and out based on down and distance. Cam Jordan plays damn near every snap and the other DE spot has just been filled by role players because we haven’t found the right guy. I’m thinking Turner is the answer.

Here's their snap counts for 2020:

Cameron JordanDE00%81678.01% 
Trey HendricksonDE00%55853.35% 
Marcus DavenportDE00%37435.76% 
Carl GrandersonDE00%29127.82% 

Looks like a rotation to me.

And Payton even references the rotation in his interview:

Last year, when you drafted (Cesar) Ruiz you said, we did not draft him to sit. Is that something you could say about (Payton) Turner, like a guy you could see contribute?

"He'll play and earn those reps his first year. I think we've always done a really good job at developing a rotation and working with typically a good gameday number of eight (defensive linemen) usually. So we'll have a clear vision for his role."

At the same time you guys also picked up the option on Marcus Davenport, obviously there's room for three defensive ends to play in that rotation. Do you feel like he has a lot of room still to grow?

"Look, there will be more than three defensive ends. These guys, if they have the traits that we feel like they have, we have more depth and we feel like it's like, look it's a passing game. And we feel like it's an important position."

AsylumGuido 04-30-2021 11:31 AM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boston Saint (Post 919469)
You have Jordan. You signed Davenport’s 5th year option. You sign Kpassagnon, a 6’ 7” physical freak as a free agent. Then draft another DE project in the first round when he was from a non power conference and not rated as a first round pick. Spin that all you want, Putting it kindly it’s a questionable pick.

It wasn't a question in their minds and theirs are the only ones that carry any weight.

I understand that you don't understand. You are basing your opinion on what you read from others that don't make real decisions.

:D

The Dude 04-30-2021 12:02 PM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boston Saint (Post 919455)
The smell of roses is not what I detect from your posts Guido. It’s the manure they grow in.

Guido doesn’t like it when people form opinions. He likes to blindly follow the facts. At least the ones he can cherry pick to make the Saints seem perfect in his mind.

iceshack149 04-30-2021 12:11 PM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boston Saint (Post 919469)
You have Jordan. You signed Davenport’s 5th year option. You sign Kpassagnon, a 6’ 7” physical freak as a free agent. Then draft another DE project in the first round when he was from a non power conference and not rated as a first round pick. Spin that all you want, Putting it kindly it’s a questionable pick.


In my opinion you just gave a great reason for the pick. In a division with slow QB'S the Saints have huge, athletic monsters on the D-line. That's the recipe for winning and the Giants proved that when they kept the Patriots from having an undefeated season.

iceshack149 04-30-2021 12:14 PM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido (Post 919459)
What makes you think Turner is a replacement for Davenport? I expect Davenport to be around for years and to be a force. Turner is filling Hendrickson's void, instead.


I admit, I'm a bitter Saints fan but I can see Davenport balling out this season and another team will pick him up next year... just like Hendrickson.

AsylumGuido 04-30-2021 12:19 PM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Dude (Post 919478)
Guido doesn’t like it when people form opinions. He likes to blindly follow the facts. At least the ones he can cherry pick to make the Saints seem perfect in his mind.

Yup. Ya' gotta hate facts.

AsylumGuido 04-30-2021 12:20 PM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by iceshack149 (Post 919481)
I admit, I'm a bitter Saints fan but I can see Davenport balling out this season and another team will pick him up next year... just like Hendrickson.

At least we picked up his option so we have him at least through 2022. But, all the more reason to get another DE.

SmashMouth 04-30-2021 12:22 PM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by iceshack149 (Post 919481)
I admit, I'm a bitter Saints fan but I can see Davenport balling out this season and another team will pick him up next year... just like Hendrickson.

Fairpoint... a la Mark ingram. Both Ingram and Daveport are players we overspent on in terms of draft capital vs what we got in return on investment.

Turner may be our next Cameron Jordan. If you compare his bio vs that of the Penn St DE rated higher that went shortly after, you'd probably reach the very same conclusions, even without the benefit of the pre-craft scouting work the Saints put in.

K Major 04-30-2021 12:44 PM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
Whether Turner was the right player only time will tell, just like every draft pick, but the strategy was certainly a good one. Not to mention we have one if not the best def line coaches in the league.

I'm anxious to see what direction we move on Day 2 & 3 of the draft.

Boston Saint 04-30-2021 12:49 PM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by iceshack149 (Post 919479)
In my opinion you just gave a great reason for the pick. In a division with slow QB'S the Saints have huge, athletic monsters on the D-line. That's the recipe for winning and the Giants proved that when they kept the Patriots from having an undefeated season.

Possibly. Yet On most defensive plays for the saints there are 2 DEs. There are usually 2 or more LBs as well. If you can’t understand the logic of people that question why there are now 4 functional DEs on the roster with only 1 1/2 functional LBs on the roster then I can’t help you. It’s pretty obvious.

st thomas 04-30-2021 12:51 PM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boston Saint (Post 919452)
Bottom line is it smells to me of Baptiste, Davenport and other “reaches” the team has taken on draft prospects that were surprise moves according to draft analysts. I felt good about Lattimore pick at the time. I don’t feel good about this one. Maybe I’m wrong and they hit on a Kamara.


The thing about Kamara , we moved up to get him in the 3rd round is not like moving up in the 1st rd that we all think Davenport should have made more waves. If Kamara was a bust had not made the team it would have been o well we didn’t loose 2 first rd picks , but Davenport is not a bust (Yet) I’ll determine that after this season.[emoji872]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

SmashMouth 04-30-2021 12:53 PM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 

Sainters7 04-30-2021 01:00 PM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido (Post 919459)
What makes you think Turner is a replacement for Davenport? I expect Davenport to be around for years and to be a force. Turner is filling Hendrickson's void, instead.

I've been high on Davenport his whole career ("if only he could stay healthy..") until mid last year. Dude finally put together a string of games...and did nothing. I think he's got a bit of that Johnathan Sullivan-vibe in the sense he just doesn't have that hunger or love for the game (at least Turner has the drive). I just don't see him getting to that next level I always envisioned him hitting until last season.

I'll happily be wrong though, I like your prediction better. I just don't see it happening at this point. Guess I just saw this move as the Saints trying to move on and admit they messed up in 2018 Draft (I know they picked up his option, but I see it more as a "one last chance" type move). We'll see how it all shakes out...

iceshack149 04-30-2021 01:02 PM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boston Saint (Post 919490)
Possibly. Yet On most defensive plays for the saints there are 2 DEs. There are usually 2 or more LBs as well. If you can’t understand the logic of people that question why there are now 4 functional DEs on the roster with only 1 1/2 functional LBs on the roster then I can’t help you. It’s pretty obvious.

They're bringing the "NASCAR" package back!

Boston Saint 04-30-2021 01:04 PM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by iceshack149 (Post 919495)
They're bringing the "NASCAR" package back!

Maybe so. I don’t see that helping to slow Pitts down though.

Cruize 04-30-2021 01:22 PM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
Bust like Davenport. The Saints needed a CB, LB, and DT . The next pick will be an OT.

lee909 04-30-2021 01:33 PM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
Sheldon Rankins
Michael Thomas
Vonn Bell
David Onyemata
Daniel Lasco

Marshon Lattimore
Ryan Ramczyk
Marcus Williams
Alvin Kamara
Alex Anzalone
Trey Hendrickson
Al-Quadin Muhammad


Marcus Davenport (+2019 1st)
Tre'Quan Smith
Rick Leonard
Natrell Jamerson
Kamrin Moore
Boston Scott
Will Clapp

Erik McCoy
Chauncey Gardner-Johnson
Saquan Hampton
Alize Mack
Kaden Elliss


Cesar Ruiz
Zack Baun
Adam Trautman
Tommy Stevens


Drafting since 2016

Feels they started believing the hype after 2017 and that they are so much clever that other teams. Since that 2017 draft there is only 2 players you can call a out and out success in McCoy and CGJ. Trautman may or may not progress as a starter.


When you want to throw so much cap at just a few very special players you need to be finding solid starting level guys in the draft.


Free agents next year

QB
Winston
Hill

LT
Terron Armstead

RT
Ryan Ramczyk

CB
Lattimore


FS
M. Williams


DE
Carl Granderson

DT
Shy Tuttle


All bar Hill/Winston and Granderson expected to start this year

Cap liabilities in 2022 $188ml with only 30 players

Yeah some will say the 2023 cap will rocket but so will salaries of every player in the league.

The Saints are currently set to pay
Armstead 13ml
Hill 8.9ml
Brees 11.5ml
Winston 3m

Not to be on the roster in 2022, $36.4 million of the cap in dead money.
Even if they resign Armstead,Hill and Winston you only push that forward.

hitta 04-30-2021 01:41 PM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
I have no issue with drafting another DE, I just don't think he was the best option at the time.

jeanpierre 04-30-2021 02:01 PM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SmashMouth (Post 919358)
Is Davenport on the outs? His fifth year option was exercised. His last year as a Saint with this Saints pick?

No. Cam is done. Could see it in his play last year. This allows a one year transition from Cam Jordan to Payton Turner - it's the right move, right candidate...

Maybe not first round pick; but it's time...

FinSaint 04-30-2021 02:03 PM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
I reserve judgement until the whole draft is done, because it has to be viewed in its entirety along with the following UDFA signings.

I didn't spend any time this year learning about the players entering the draft, so I'm not disappointed by the pick as I have no vested interest in any of the players. Furthermore, I'm actually happy they stayed in their spot and picked the BPA.

Some of the comments here are pretty hyperbole, and while I understand that people are very emotional about everything that has to do with the Saints - I'd wish folks could be more relaxed about it all.

Here I am relaxing after the sauna at my lakeside cabin in Finland drinking beer, wearing a Saints' jersey and waiting for the draft to continue - excited to see who'll join the Saints.

:bng:

shawnkytonk 04-30-2021 02:57 PM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
The pick was one of need. Maybe not the biggest need. The limited film I’ve seen has me excited. Fans always think they’re the experts. I always wait for judgement. Just glad we didn’t trade up for a qb.

And I can’t help but laugh at those calling Davenport a bust. It’s obvious you don’t watch football.

K Major 04-30-2021 03:11 PM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hitta (Post 919406)
In all honesty, I'm not that impressed with this pick.

Deuce put a out tweet right after the draft ended. Three consecutive DEs taken after Turner.

Buffalo, Ravens & Tampa were all eyeing him with a strong possibility of selecting at the end of the first rd.

ChrisXVI 04-30-2021 03:41 PM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by K Major (Post 919511)
Deuce put a out tweet right after the draft ended. Three consecutive DEs taken after Turner.

Buffalo, Ravens & Tampa were all eyeing him with a strong possibility of selecting at the end of the first rd.

Well that’s just it... I despised Jayson Oweh as a prospect. He doesn’t have a single pass rush move lol. I’m just happy we didn’t take him.

SmashMouth 04-30-2021 04:21 PM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FinSaint (Post 919506)
I reserve judgement until the whole draft is done, because it has to be viewed in its entirety along with the following UDFA signings.

I didn't spend any time this year learning about the players entering the draft, so I'm not disappointed by the pick as I have no vested interest in any of the players. Furthermore, I'm actually happy they stayed in their spot and picked the BPA.

Some of the comments here are pretty hyperbole, and while I understand that people are very emotional about everything that has to do with the Saints - I'd wish folks could be more relaxed about it all.

Here I am relaxing after the sauna at my lakeside cabin in Finland drinking beer, wearing a Saints' jersey and waiting for the draft to continue - excited to see who'll join the Saints.

:bng:

Do you have your own island like so many of the locals there?

I've visited Helsinki twice, mostly for business, got a tour of some of the islands and surroundings. It's lovely in Finland. The company I used to work for is based there.

st thomas 04-30-2021 05:01 PM

Re: Saints draft Houston DE Payton Turner with first-round pick
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boston Saint (Post 919496)
Maybe so. I don’t see that helping to slow Pitts down though.


Boston ,Mattie asre wipe won’t have time to throw to pitts or anyone else if they didn’t upgrade there o-line, to me they got greedy at 4th pick


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:05 AM.


Copyright 1997 - 2020 - BlackandGold.com