ESPN's Marcus Spears: Saints still a playoff team with Jameis Winston at QB

SmashMouth · 06-16-2021, 06:32 PM

How confident are you that Jameis Winston can lead the New Orleans Saints back to the playoffs — assuming he even defeats Taysom Hill for the starting quarterback job in training camp?

ESPN’s Marcus Spears is one national analyst putting his faith in the former first overall draft pick, telling the Spun’s Chris Rosvoglou, “I expect the Saints to make the playoffs, and I expect him not to turn the ball over a lot.”

That’s been the top flaw for Winston throughout his career, even going back to his Heisman Trophy-winning campaign at Florida State. NewOrleans.Football’s Nick Underhill has shared a lot of clarifying context into Winston’s staggering interceptions (88) and fumbles totals (50), but at the end of the day he’s still been too careless with the football.

Spears expects Winston to flourish in a better situation than where he started with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, adding: “He just needed to digest the game without having to play it. When you get taken first overall and have to play right away, you’re learning on the fly and never get to sit back and learn the game the right way.”

more here

Thirty3 · 06-16-2021, 10:26 PM

Better situation? Brady took that situation to the SB.

rezburna · 06-16-2021, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by Thirty3

Better situation? Brady took that situation to the SB.

Why y’all keep pretending like that was the same team Winston had? 😂

jeanpierre · 06-17-2021, 01:22 AM

Originally Posted by rezburna

Why y’all keep pretending like that was the same team Winston had? 😂

Pretending? It's a fact that the only significant difference was the quarterback...

You really think old, broke-down Gronk was the real difference over O.J. Howard, who Brady didn't have but Jameis did?

Bruce Arians has coached, among others, Peyton Manning, Andrew Luck, Carson Palmer and Ben Roethlisberger; that's an impressive record as a QB whisperer....

And he had no problem dumping Winston and going get Brady; the Bucs won another SuperBowl from the NFC-South...

And that's just the reality that Bruce Arians made the right move as he must have saw something, or didn't see something, in Winston that led to that call...

And a SuperBowl Trophy says it was the right call...

Boston Saint · 06-17-2021, 07:02 AM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

Pretending? It's a fact that the only significant difference was the quarterback...

You really think old, broke-down Gronk was the real difference over O.J. Howard, who Brady didn't have but Jameis did?

Bruce Arians has coached, among others, Peyton Manning, Andrew Luck, Carson Palmer and Ben Roethlisberger; that's an impressive record as a QB whisperer....

And he had no problem dumping Winston and going get Brady; the Bucs won another SuperBowl from the NFC-South...

And that's just the reality that Bruce Arians made the right move as he must have saw something, or didn't see something, in Winston that led to that call...

And a SuperBowl Trophy says it was the right call...

I respectfully disagree JP. Fornette, Gronk, and AB all were additions that helped that offense win a SB. Additionally, the Defense had some young players that made strides in their rookie/second/third years. 5 of their 6 leading tacklers were 23 or younger. They had a good D with Jameis as well, but it improved on the field as the younger players got better. Did Brady play better than Winston, sure...but Brady is the best to ever play. I would expect that. Not to mention the refs giving the team the overall Brady treatment.

gosaints1 · 06-17-2021, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

Pretending? It's a fact that the only significant difference was the quarterback...

You really think old, broke-down Gronk was the real difference over O.J. Howard, who Brady didn't have but Jameis did?

Bruce Arians has coached, among others, Peyton Manning, Andrew Luck, Carson Palmer and Ben Roethlisberger; that's an impressive record as a QB whisperer....

And he had no problem dumping Winston and going get Brady; the Bucs won another SuperBowl from the NFC-South...

And that's just the reality that Bruce Arians made the right move as he must have saw something, or didn't see something, in Winston that led to that call...

And a SuperBowl Trophy says it was the right call...

Fixing one of the league’s worst secondary (2018) on the arrival of Arians new coaching staff (2019) was more important, at the time than the QB situation. They failed at that, and in 2019 TB had one of the league’s worst secondaries, again, this time under Arians and Bowles. But, speaking of Winston, here’s what the new HC said about Winston, and elite QB’s in general, at the time:

Arians said Winston has the unteachable ability of the top-notch NFL quarterbacks, but his new coaches would help him refine and focus that talent to reach that level.

“The really good ones were born with it,” Arians said. "You can try to take some credit for it, but God did it and Mom and Dad. Decision process, that’s one of the things you can really get better at, and knowing your offense, especially your protections, you can play the game faster.

https://www.al.com/sports/2019/03/br...uccessful.html

I happen to agree with him. He’s not the reason Peyton Manning was successful, nor the reason Tom Brady was. Their innate abilities, or as Arians himself describes “God & Mom” given talent are the reasons. Rothlisberger struggled with injuries bc of career high sacks under Arians tenure, and injuries, which led to Pitt not renewing his contract.

So did Andrew Luck, who had a fairly short, especially being a QB, career.

Carson Palmer was injured a lot under Arians Tenure also. But he was a QB in the league for a decade before Arians was connected to him.

Bottom line, the Manning’s were bred for football, Arians did little for Peyton, nothing any other QB Coach couldn’t do. Tom Brady is/was an anomalous outlier, his success had nothing to do with Arians. Both Carson Palmer and Andrew Luck had moderate level of successes, but nothing significant.

But even more simpler than that JP..., if Arians was TRULY a QB whisperer..., one would think he would have figured out the young man’s vision (Winston) was a problem. How did he make it through five years of football while squinting at receivers? That’s not something leader’s miss.

Personally, I like Arians, he’s a QB’s coach. They’re his focus. But that being said, TB’s defense was the reason for the team we saw last year. And there was a TON of change in that organization when Arians came on board.

https://footballscoop.com/news/bruce...ff-nfl-history

Arians did just draft a QB, #64 overall though. Let’s allow that to define him as a QB whisperer, or not. If Trask is a superstar, then you’ll have a believer in me. But I agree, Gronk played little to no role in TB’s success, TB’s defense, however did, and those defensive draftees from 2019 and 2020 were critical.

Not the same team. Not the same coaches.

Boston Saint · 06-17-2021, 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by gosaints1

. But I agree, Gronk played little to no role in TB’s success....

I guess I don’t follow the idea that Gronk provided nothing to very little. If that’s true then Saints TE Cook provided the same next to nothing:

37 rec 504yds 7 TD for Cook
45 rec 623 yds 7 TD for Gronk

gosaints1 · 06-17-2021, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by Boston Saint

I guess I don’t follow the idea that Gronk provided nothing to very little. If that’s true then Saints TE Cook provided the same next to nothing:

37 rec 504yds 7 TD for Cook
45 rec 623 yds 7 TD for Gronk

It’s a fair point. Stats are similar, one team released the player with those stats though. That team definitely didn’t celebrate it or extend its contract. But, I understand your logic.

Interesting wrt Gronk, how he was used last year’s playoff run. The following stats are interesting:

Wildcard vs Wash: 1 target, 0 receptions.
Divisional vs Saints: 5 targets, 1 reception, 14 yards.
Conf vs Packers: 1 target, 1 reception, 29 yards.
SB vs Chiefs: 7 targets, 6 receptions, 2 TD’s.

TB played two more games than cook, and Gronk only had 5 TD’s in 19 games leading up to the SB. That’s nitpicking, a bit, over the stats. Gronk had a good SB, without a doubt. It lends credence to the belief that your superstars step up when the lights are the brightest. Very pedestrian year for any starting TE, much less Gronk, outside of his SB performance, iyam.

Everybody talks about Kelce and Kittle..., but I’m a fan of the kid out in Vegas, Darren Waller. Interesting read below wrt Gronk and Cook and how journalists/analysts attempt to “rank” them:

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-pff-tig...021-nfl-season

Curious to see if Trautman can shed the “run blocking TE” label he’s been given. I feel he can.

SmashMouth · 06-17-2021, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

Pretending? It's a fact that the only significant difference was the quarterback...

You really think old, broke-down Gronk was the real difference over O.J. Howard, who Brady didn't have but Jameis did?

Bruce Arians has coached, among others, Peyton Manning, Andrew Luck, Carson Palmer and Ben Roethlisberger; that's an impressive record as a QB whisperer....

And he had no problem dumping Winston and going get Brady; the Bucs won another SuperBowl from the NFC-South...

And that's just the reality that Bruce Arians made the right move as he must have saw something, or didn't see something, in Winston that led to that call...

And a SuperBowl Trophy says it was the right call...

Having TB available was a gift from the Gods. Arians got lucky and acted on it. The timing was opportune. Nonetheless there are some differences. You can't deny that Gronk is a better player than OJ. They also did step up with signing a WR the Saints (SP) should have signed. They added some pieces on the OL and on defense also (Jameis didn't benefit from that). The defense was also allowed to play the vaunted illegal press coverage, normally a flag fest for other teams, especially the Saints.

It would've been more impressive had Ariens stuck with Jameis. Historically, his QBs have fared better in year two under his tenure. And that's all of the aforementioned hall of fame QBs. Brady's 3 interception game should've been lost. But that pesky illegal press defense was allowed to thrive.

Why did Ariens not win it all previously in Arizona? He quit on that team.

We'll see if SP can work his magic with the Jameis reclamation project. We all hope so as Saints fans.

Boston Saint · 06-17-2021, 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by gosaints1

It’s a fair point. Stats are similar, one team released the player with those stats though. That team definitely didn’t celebrate it or extend its contract. But, I understand your logic.

Interesting wrt Gronk, how he was used last year’s playoff run. The following stats are interesting:

Wildcard vs Wash: 1 target, 0 receptions.
Divisional vs Saints: 5 targets, 1 reception, 14 yards.
Conf vs Packers: 1 target, 1 reception, 29 yards.
SB vs Chiefs: 7 targets, 6 receptions, 2 TD’s.

TB played two more games than cook, and Gronk only had 5 TD’s in 19 games leading up to the SB. That’s nitpicking, a bit, over the stats. Gronk had a good SB, without a doubt. It lends credence to the belief that your superstars step up when the lights are the brightest. Very pedestrian year for any starting TE, much less Gronk, outside of his SB performance, iyam.

Everybody talks about Kelce and Kittle..., but I’m a fan of the kid out in Vegas, Darren Waller. Interesting read below wrt Gronk and Cook and how journalists/analysts attempt to “rank” them:

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-pff-tig...021-nfl-season

Curious to see if Trautman can shed the “run blocking TE” label he’s been given. I feel he can.

TE seems to be a “cerebral” position to me in that I’ll take a heady player over an athletic player any day. Guys like Gates, Gonzales, and Gronk (three G’s!) all were still effective in later years because they could still find the open spaces and make catches.

06-16-2021, 06:32 PM	#1
SmashMouth I donated, did you? Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Mandeville, LA Posts: 36,987 Blog Entries: 29	ESPN's Marcus Spears: Saints still a playoff team with Jameis Winston at QB How confident are you that Jameis Winston can lead the New Orleans Saints back to the playoffs — assuming he even defeats Taysom Hill for the starting quarterback job in training camp? ESPN’s Marcus Spears is one national analyst putting his faith in the former first overall draft pick, telling the Spun’s Chris Rosvoglou, “I expect the Saints to make the playoffs, and I expect him not to turn the ball over a lot.” That’s been the top flaw for Winston throughout his career, even going back to his Heisman Trophy-winning campaign at Florida State. NewOrleans.Football’s Nick Underhill has shared a lot of clarifying context into Winston’s staggering interceptions (88) and fumbles totals (50), but at the end of the day he’s still been too careless with the football. Spears expects Winston to flourish in a better situation than where he started with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, adding: “He just needed to digest the game without having to play it. When you get taken first overall and have to play right away, you’re learning on the fly and never get to sit back and learn the game the right way.” more here

06-16-2021, 10:26 PM	#2
Thirty3 1000 Posts + Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 1,251	Re: ESPN's Marcus Spears: Saints still a playoff team with Jameis Winston at QB Better situation? Brady took that situation to the SB. jeanpierre likes this.
Thirty3 1000 Posts + Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 1,251

06-16-2021, 10:49 PM	#3
rezburna 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Kenner, LA Posts: 7,652	Re: ESPN's Marcus Spears: Saints still a playoff team with Jameis Winston at QB Originally Posted by Thirty3 Better situation? Brady took that situation to the SB. Why y’all keep pretending like that was the same team Winston had? 😂 MatthewT, SmashMouth, gosaints1 and 5 others like this.

06-17-2021, 01:22 AM	#4
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: ESPN's Marcus Spears: Saints still a playoff team with Jameis Winston at QB Originally Posted by rezburna Why y’all keep pretending like that was the same team Winston had? 😂 Pretending? It's a fact that the only significant difference was the quarterback... You really think old, broke-down Gronk was the real difference over O.J. Howard, who Brady didn't have but Jameis did? Bruce Arians has coached, among others, Peyton Manning, Andrew Luck, Carson Palmer and Ben Roethlisberger; that's an impressive record as a QB whisperer.... And he had no problem dumping Winston and going get Brady; the Bucs won another SuperBowl from the NFC-South... And that's just the reality that Bruce Arians made the right move as he must have saw something, or didn't see something, in Winston that led to that call... And a SuperBowl Trophy says it was the right call...
	It's not that my way is the right way, I just make the right way my way...

06-17-2021, 07:02 AM	#5
Boston Saint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2020 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 4,869	Re: ESPN's Marcus Spears: Saints still a playoff team with Jameis Winston at QB Originally Posted by jeanpierre Pretending? It's a fact that the only significant difference was the quarterback... You really think old, broke-down Gronk was the real difference over O.J. Howard, who Brady didn't have but Jameis did? Bruce Arians has coached, among others, Peyton Manning, Andrew Luck, Carson Palmer and Ben Roethlisberger; that's an impressive record as a QB whisperer.... And he had no problem dumping Winston and going get Brady; the Bucs won another SuperBowl from the NFC-South... And that's just the reality that Bruce Arians made the right move as he must have saw something, or didn't see something, in Winston that led to that call... And a SuperBowl Trophy says it was the right call... I respectfully disagree JP. Fornette, Gronk, and AB all were additions that helped that offense win a SB. Additionally, the Defense had some young players that made strides in their rookie/second/third years. 5 of their 6 leading tacklers were 23 or younger. They had a good D with Jameis as well, but it improved on the field as the younger players got better. Did Brady play better than Winston, sure...but Brady is the best to ever play. I would expect that. Not to mention the refs giving the team the overall Brady treatment. MatthewT, K Major, Lord_Saint83 and 1 others like this.

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06-17-2021, 07:33 AM	#6
gosaints1 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 576	Re: ESPN's Marcus Spears: Saints still a playoff team with Jameis Winston at QB Originally Posted by jeanpierre Pretending? It's a fact that the only significant difference was the quarterback... You really think old, broke-down Gronk was the real difference over O.J. Howard, who Brady didn't have but Jameis did? Bruce Arians has coached, among others, Peyton Manning, Andrew Luck, Carson Palmer and Ben Roethlisberger; that's an impressive record as a QB whisperer.... And he had no problem dumping Winston and going get Brady; the Bucs won another SuperBowl from the NFC-South... And that's just the reality that Bruce Arians made the right move as he must have saw something, or didn't see something, in Winston that led to that call... And a SuperBowl Trophy says it was the right call... Fixing one of the league’s worst secondary (2018) on the arrival of Arians new coaching staff (2019) was more important, at the time than the QB situation. They failed at that, and in 2019 TB had one of the league’s worst secondaries, again, this time under Arians and Bowles. But, speaking of Winston, here’s what the new HC said about Winston, and elite QB’s in general, at the time: Arians said Winston has the unteachable ability of the top-notch NFL quarterbacks, but his new coaches would help him refine and focus that talent to reach that level. “The really good ones were born with it,” Arians said. "You can try to take some credit for it, but God did it and Mom and Dad. Decision process, that’s one of the things you can really get better at, and knowing your offense, especially your protections, you can play the game faster. https://www.al.com/sports/2019/03/br...uccessful.html I happen to agree with him. He’s not the reason Peyton Manning was successful, nor the reason Tom Brady was. Their innate abilities, or as Arians himself describes “God & Mom” given talent are the reasons. Rothlisberger struggled with injuries bc of career high sacks under Arians tenure, and injuries, which led to Pitt not renewing his contract. So did Andrew Luck, who had a fairly short, especially being a QB, career. Carson Palmer was injured a lot under Arians Tenure also. But he was a QB in the league for a decade before Arians was connected to him. Bottom line, the Manning’s were bred for football, Arians did little for Peyton, nothing any other QB Coach couldn’t do. Tom Brady is/was an anomalous outlier, his success had nothing to do with Arians. Both Carson Palmer and Andrew Luck had moderate level of successes, but nothing significant. But even more simpler than that JP..., if Arians was TRULY a QB whisperer..., one would think he would have figured out the young man’s vision (Winston) was a problem. How did he make it through five years of football while squinting at receivers? That’s not something leader’s miss. Personally, I like Arians, he’s a QB’s coach. They’re his focus. But that being said, TB’s defense was the reason for the team we saw last year. And there was a TON of change in that organization when Arians came on board. https://footballscoop.com/news/bruce...ff-nfl-history Arians did just draft a QB, #64 overall though. Let’s allow that to define him as a QB whisperer, or not. If Trask is a superstar, then you’ll have a believer in me. But I agree, Gronk played little to no role in TB’s success, TB’s defense, however did, and those defensive draftees from 2019 and 2020 were critical. Not the same team. Not the same coaches. MatthewT, AsylumGuido, K Major and 2 others like this.
gosaints1 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 576

06-17-2021, 08:11 AM	#7
Boston Saint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2020 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 4,869	Re: ESPN's Marcus Spears: Saints still a playoff team with Jameis Winston at QB Originally Posted by gosaints1 . But I agree, Gronk played little to no role in TB’s success.... I guess I don’t follow the idea that Gronk provided nothing to very little. If that’s true then Saints TE Cook provided the same next to nothing: 37 rec 504yds 7 TD for Cook 45 rec 623 yds 7 TD for Gronk MatthewT, gosaints1 and Audiotom like this.

06-17-2021, 08:57 AM	#8
gosaints1 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 576	Re: ESPN's Marcus Spears: Saints still a playoff team with Jameis Winston at QB Originally Posted by Boston Saint I guess I don’t follow the idea that Gronk provided nothing to very little. If that’s true then Saints TE Cook provided the same next to nothing: 37 rec 504yds 7 TD for Cook 45 rec 623 yds 7 TD for Gronk It’s a fair point. Stats are similar, one team released the player with those stats though. That team definitely didn’t celebrate it or extend its contract. But, I understand your logic. Interesting wrt Gronk, how he was used last year’s playoff run. The following stats are interesting: Wildcard vs Wash: 1 target, 0 receptions. Divisional vs Saints: 5 targets, 1 reception, 14 yards. Conf vs Packers: 1 target, 1 reception, 29 yards. SB vs Chiefs: 7 targets, 6 receptions, 2 TD’s. TB played two more games than cook, and Gronk only had 5 TD’s in 19 games leading up to the SB. That’s nitpicking, a bit, over the stats. Gronk had a good SB, without a doubt. It lends credence to the belief that your superstars step up when the lights are the brightest. Very pedestrian year for any starting TE, much less Gronk, outside of his SB performance, iyam. Everybody talks about Kelce and Kittle..., but I’m a fan of the kid out in Vegas, Darren Waller. Interesting read below wrt Gronk and Cook and how journalists/analysts attempt to “rank” them: https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-pff-tig...021-nfl-season Curious to see if Trautman can shed the “run blocking TE” label he’s been given. I feel he can. SmashMouth and Boston Saint like this.
gosaints1 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 576

06-17-2021, 09:06 AM	#9
SmashMouth I donated, did you? Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Mandeville, LA Posts: 36,987 Blog Entries: 29	Re: ESPN's Marcus Spears: Saints still a playoff team with Jameis Winston at QB Originally Posted by jeanpierre Pretending? It's a fact that the only significant difference was the quarterback... You really think old, broke-down Gronk was the real difference over O.J. Howard, who Brady didn't have but Jameis did? Bruce Arians has coached, among others, Peyton Manning, Andrew Luck, Carson Palmer and Ben Roethlisberger; that's an impressive record as a QB whisperer.... And he had no problem dumping Winston and going get Brady; the Bucs won another SuperBowl from the NFC-South... And that's just the reality that Bruce Arians made the right move as he must have saw something, or didn't see something, in Winston that led to that call... And a SuperBowl Trophy says it was the right call... Having TB available was a gift from the Gods. Arians got lucky and acted on it. The timing was opportune. Nonetheless there are some differences. You can't deny that Gronk is a better player than OJ. They also did step up with signing a WR the Saints (SP) should have signed. They added some pieces on the OL and on defense also (Jameis didn't benefit from that). The defense was also allowed to play the vaunted illegal press coverage, normally a flag fest for other teams, especially the Saints. It would've been more impressive had Ariens stuck with Jameis. Historically, his QBs have fared better in year two under his tenure. And that's all of the aforementioned hall of fame QBs. Brady's 3 interception game should've been lost. But that pesky illegal press defense was allowed to thrive. Why did Ariens not win it all previously in Arizona? He quit on that team. We'll see if SP can work his magic with the Jameis reclamation project. We all hope so as Saints fans. iceshack149, gosaints1 and Audiotom like this.

06-17-2021, 09:13 AM	#10
Boston Saint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2020 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 4,869	Re: ESPN's Marcus Spears: Saints still a playoff team with Jameis Winston at QB Originally Posted by gosaints1 It’s a fair point. Stats are similar, one team released the player with those stats though. That team definitely didn’t celebrate it or extend its contract. But, I understand your logic. Interesting wrt Gronk, how he was used last year’s playoff run. The following stats are interesting: Wildcard vs Wash: 1 target, 0 receptions. Divisional vs Saints: 5 targets, 1 reception, 14 yards. Conf vs Packers: 1 target, 1 reception, 29 yards. SB vs Chiefs: 7 targets, 6 receptions, 2 TD’s. TB played two more games than cook, and Gronk only had 5 TD’s in 19 games leading up to the SB. That’s nitpicking, a bit, over the stats. Gronk had a good SB, without a doubt. It lends credence to the belief that your superstars step up when the lights are the brightest. Very pedestrian year for any starting TE, much less Gronk, outside of his SB performance, iyam. Everybody talks about Kelce and Kittle..., but I’m a fan of the kid out in Vegas, Darren Waller. Interesting read below wrt Gronk and Cook and how journalists/analysts attempt to “rank” them: https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-pff-tig...021-nfl-season Curious to see if Trautman can shed the “run blocking TE” label he’s been given. I feel he can. TE seems to be a “cerebral” position to me in that I’ll take a heady player over an athletic player any day. Guys like Gates, Gonzales, and Gronk (three G’s!) all were still effective in later years because they could still find the open spaces and make catches. SmashMouth and gosaints1 like this.