Should Saints Be First NFL Team to Fully Guarantee Contracts?

BakoSaint · 03-11-2022, 12:24 AM

https://www.thescore.com/nfl/news/2185058

Every major sports league except the NFL offers fully guaranteed contracts. The Saints strategy of blowing up future salary caps even with backloaded deals and then restructuring annually to back load even more, to the extent that all their big long term contracts have to be restructured annually to keep them under the cap, effectively means that any player who signs a long term contract with the Saints effectively has their entire deal guaranteed. The Saints can’t afford to cut Peat, Hill, or Thomas is they underperform, and in the later years of the contracts where it looks like we could afford to cut them, we will restructure the deals enough by that time that we wont be able to when the time comes. Sure, we cut players we trade for late in existing deals, but we dont cut our own big contracts no matter what, its impossible with Loomis’ strategy. So if the contracts are guaranteed in all but name, why not actually guarantee them?

By setting the precedent and offering players like Williams, Davenport, or Winston a 100% fully guaranteed contract, the Saints can only win. Such terms could allow the Saints to offer a little less and still win a bidding war. We should have given Peat, Hill, Thomas, Kamara, Lattimore, etc fully guaranteed deals because we can never afford to cut any of them anyway and we could have saved money on total contract. Also, if we begin offering players fully guaranteed contracts, it may set a precedent that other teams have to do the same to compete, and by a domino effect it becomes a league wide standard. This could benefit our team because it could neutralize the competitive disadvantage that Mickey Loomis’ cap management strategy imposes on us in being unable to cut players like Peat and Hill to save cap, nobody would be able to cut such players anymore to save cap.

We are already doing it, so why not just put it in writing? I see no disadvantage.

SmashMouth · 03-11-2022, 04:19 AM

Mebbe... cap is getting stupid big.

AsylumGuido · 03-11-2022, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by BakoSaint

https://www.thescore.com/nfl/news/2185058

Every major sports league except the NFL offers fully guaranteed contracts. The Saints strategy of blowing up future salary caps even with backloaded deals and then restructuring annually to back load even more, to the extent that all their big long term contracts have to be restructured annually to keep them under the cap, effectively means that any player who signs a long term contract with the Saints effectively has their entire deal guaranteed. The Saints can’t afford to cut Peat, Hill, or Thomas is they underperform, and in the later years of the contracts where it looks like we could afford to cut them, we will restructure the deals enough by that time that we wont be able to when the time comes. Sure, we cut players we trade for late in existing deals, but we dont cut our own big contracts no matter what, its impossible with Loomis’ strategy. So if the contracts are guaranteed in all but name, why not actually guarantee them?

By setting the precedent and offering players like Williams, Davenport, or Winston a 100% fully guaranteed contract, the Saints can only win. Such terms could allow the Saints to offer a little less and still win a bidding war. We should have given Peat, Hill, Thomas, Kamara, Lattimore, etc fully guaranteed deals because we can never afford to cut any of them anyway and we could have saved money on total contract. Also, if we begin offering players fully guaranteed contracts, it may set a precedent that other teams have to do the same to compete, and by a domino effect it becomes a league wide standard. This could benefit our team because it could neutralize the competitive disadvantage that Mickey Loomis’ cap management strategy imposes on us in being unable to cut players like Peat and Hill to save cap, nobody would be able to cut such players anymore to save cap.

We are already doing it, so why not just put it in writing? I see no disadvantage.

There is a double edged sword here. While you claim that the Saints are precluded from cutting players you feel might be underperforming in some cases, other teams are commonly forced to cut or not re-sign players that are still performing at high levels because their contracts or other contracts on the are not designed to be able to be restructured. Look at Dallas/Amani Cooper and Seattle/Bobby Wagner as examples.

AsylumGuido · 03-11-2022, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by SmashMouth

Mebbe... cap is getting stupid big.

And getting bigger. It should be at or over $250 million in two years and over $300 million well before the end of the new CBA. It wasn't long ago that it was $125 million with top QB's making $25 million of that. Were now at $208 million and top QB's averaging around $40 million per year.

TheOak · 03-11-2022, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by BakoSaint

https://www.thescore.com/nfl/news/2185058

Every major sports league except the NFL offers fully guaranteed contracts. The Saints strategy of blowing up future salary caps even with backloaded deals and then restructuring annually to back load even more, to the extent that all their big long term contracts have to be restructured annually to keep them under the cap, effectively means that any player who signs a long term contract with the Saints effectively has their entire deal guaranteed. The Saints can’t afford to cut Peat, Hill, or Thomas is they underperform, and in the later years of the contracts where it looks like we could afford to cut them, we will restructure the deals enough by that time that we wont be able to when the time comes. Sure, we cut players we trade for late in existing deals, but we dont cut our own big contracts no matter what, its impossible with Loomis’ strategy. So if the contracts are guaranteed in all but name, why not actually guarantee them?

By setting the precedent and offering players like Williams, Davenport, or Winston a 100% fully guaranteed contract, the Saints can only win. Such terms could allow the Saints to offer a little less and still win a bidding war. We should have given Peat, Hill, Thomas, Kamara, Lattimore, etc fully guaranteed deals because we can never afford to cut any of them anyway and we could have saved money on total contract. Also, if we begin offering players fully guaranteed contracts, it may set a precedent that other teams have to do the same to compete, and by a domino effect it becomes a league wide standard. This could benefit our team because it could neutralize the competitive disadvantage that Mickey Loomis’ cap management strategy imposes on us in being unable to cut players like Peat and Hill to save cap, nobody would be able to cut such players anymore to save cap.

We are already doing it, so why not just put it in writing? I see no disadvantage.

We are not already doing it. Many contracts are performance based and you cant incentivize with a fully guaranteed contract.

Peat is very cutable. Right now his dead cap number is $23.5MM, we designate him a post June 1 cut and he is gone at $13.8MM. Hill goes from $19MM to $8.9MM

All three of your examples are cutable. Peat, Hill, and Thomas included in this article.
https://www.nfl.com/news/cap-casualt...could-be-moved

Post June 1 designations are nothing new and nothing all teams do not already do.
https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/a...ir-salary-cap/

Guarantees in NFL contracts are not as cut and dry as you see them, if we guaranteed those contracts fully then we would drown in cap immediately.

Rugby Saint II · 03-11-2022, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by TheOak

We are not doing it. Many contracts are performance based and you cant incentivize with a fully guaranteed contract.

Peat is very cutable. Right now his dead cap number is $23.5MM, we designate him a post June 1 cut and he is gone at $13.8MM. Hill goes from $19MM to $8.9MM

All three of your examples are cutable. Peat, Hill, and Thomas included in this article.
https://www.nfl.com/news/cap-casualt...could-be-moved

Post June 1 designations are nothing new and nothing all teams do not already do.
https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/a...ir-salary-cap/

Guarantees in NFL contracts are not as cut and dry as you see them, if we guaranteed those contracts fully then we would drown in cap immediately.

You Nailed It Oak!

K Major · 03-11-2022, 10:27 AM

I wish we would have allowed KC to sign Peat.

He's injured a lot & HIGHLY compensated ... missing games.

Hopefully Dr. Rhea can help with his strength and conditioning.

AsylumGuido · 03-11-2022, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by K Major

I wish we would have allowed KC to sign Peat.

He's injured a lot & HIGHLY compensated ... missing games.

Hopefully Dr. Rhea can help with his strength and conditioning.

Will that prevent the broken forearm and thumb he suffered?

Rugby Saint II · 03-12-2022, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

Will that prevent the broken forearm and thumb he suffered?

You just can't fix fragile!

K Major · 03-12-2022, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by Rugby Saint II

You just can't fix fragile!

Precisely.

The guy has been on season ending IR 3 of 5 seasons.

I’m glad Dr. Rhea is now on board to help some of these guys with conditioning.

03-11-2022, 12:24 AM	#1
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,135	Should Saints Be First NFL Team to Fully Guarantee Contracts? https://www.thescore.com/nfl/news/2185058 Every major sports league except the NFL offers fully guaranteed contracts. The Saints strategy of blowing up future salary caps even with backloaded deals and then restructuring annually to back load even more, to the extent that all their big long term contracts have to be restructured annually to keep them under the cap, effectively means that any player who signs a long term contract with the Saints effectively has their entire deal guaranteed. The Saints can’t afford to cut Peat, Hill, or Thomas is they underperform, and in the later years of the contracts where it looks like we could afford to cut them, we will restructure the deals enough by that time that we wont be able to when the time comes. Sure, we cut players we trade for late in existing deals, but we dont cut our own big contracts no matter what, its impossible with Loomis’ strategy. So if the contracts are guaranteed in all but name, why not actually guarantee them? By setting the precedent and offering players like Williams, Davenport, or Winston a 100% fully guaranteed contract, the Saints can only win. Such terms could allow the Saints to offer a little less and still win a bidding war. We should have given Peat, Hill, Thomas, Kamara, Lattimore, etc fully guaranteed deals because we can never afford to cut any of them anyway and we could have saved money on total contract. Also, if we begin offering players fully guaranteed contracts, it may set a precedent that other teams have to do the same to compete, and by a domino effect it becomes a league wide standard. This could benefit our team because it could neutralize the competitive disadvantage that Mickey Loomis’ cap management strategy imposes on us in being unable to cut players like Peat and Hill to save cap, nobody would be able to cut such players anymore to save cap. We are already doing it, so why not just put it in writing? I see no disadvantage.
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,135	Last edited by BakoSaint; 03-11-2022 at 01:57 AM..

03-11-2022, 04:19 AM	#2
SmashMouth I donated, did you? Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Mandeville, LA Posts: 38,125 Blog Entries: 29	Re: Should Saints Be First NFL Team to Fully Guarantee Contracts? Mebbe... cap is getting stupid big.

03-11-2022, 09:17 AM	#3
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,216	Re: Should Saints Be First NFL Team to Fully Guarantee Contracts? Originally Posted by BakoSaint https://www.thescore.com/nfl/news/2185058 Every major sports league except the NFL offers fully guaranteed contracts. The Saints strategy of blowing up future salary caps even with backloaded deals and then restructuring annually to back load even more, to the extent that all their big long term contracts have to be restructured annually to keep them under the cap, effectively means that any player who signs a long term contract with the Saints effectively has their entire deal guaranteed. The Saints can’t afford to cut Peat, Hill, or Thomas is they underperform, and in the later years of the contracts where it looks like we could afford to cut them, we will restructure the deals enough by that time that we wont be able to when the time comes. Sure, we cut players we trade for late in existing deals, but we dont cut our own big contracts no matter what, its impossible with Loomis’ strategy. So if the contracts are guaranteed in all but name, why not actually guarantee them? By setting the precedent and offering players like Williams, Davenport, or Winston a 100% fully guaranteed contract, the Saints can only win. Such terms could allow the Saints to offer a little less and still win a bidding war. We should have given Peat, Hill, Thomas, Kamara, Lattimore, etc fully guaranteed deals because we can never afford to cut any of them anyway and we could have saved money on total contract. Also, if we begin offering players fully guaranteed contracts, it may set a precedent that other teams have to do the same to compete, and by a domino effect it becomes a league wide standard. This could benefit our team because it could neutralize the competitive disadvantage that Mickey Loomis’ cap management strategy imposes on us in being unable to cut players like Peat and Hill to save cap, nobody would be able to cut such players anymore to save cap. We are already doing it, so why not just put it in writing? I see no disadvantage. There is a double edged sword here. While you claim that the Saints are precluded from cutting players you feel might be underperforming in some cases, other teams are commonly forced to cut or not re-sign players that are still performing at high levels because their contracts or other contracts on the are not designed to be able to be restructured. Look at Dallas/Amani Cooper and Seattle/Bobby Wagner as examples. Rugby Saint II likes this.

03-11-2022, 09:22 AM	#4
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,216	Re: Should Saints Be First NFL Team to Fully Guarantee Contracts? Originally Posted by SmashMouth Mebbe... cap is getting stupid big. And getting bigger. It should be at or over $250 million in two years and over $300 million well before the end of the new CBA. It wasn't long ago that it was $125 million with top QB's making $25 million of that. Were now at $208 million and top QB's averaging around $40 million per year.

03-11-2022, 09:45 AM	#5
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Re: Should Saints Be First NFL Team to Fully Guarantee Contracts? Originally Posted by BakoSaint https://www.thescore.com/nfl/news/2185058 Every major sports league except the NFL offers fully guaranteed contracts. The Saints strategy of blowing up future salary caps even with backloaded deals and then restructuring annually to back load even more, to the extent that all their big long term contracts have to be restructured annually to keep them under the cap, effectively means that any player who signs a long term contract with the Saints effectively has their entire deal guaranteed. The Saints can’t afford to cut Peat, Hill, or Thomas is they underperform, and in the later years of the contracts where it looks like we could afford to cut them, we will restructure the deals enough by that time that we wont be able to when the time comes. Sure, we cut players we trade for late in existing deals, but we dont cut our own big contracts no matter what, its impossible with Loomis’ strategy. So if the contracts are guaranteed in all but name, why not actually guarantee them? By setting the precedent and offering players like Williams, Davenport, or Winston a 100% fully guaranteed contract, the Saints can only win. Such terms could allow the Saints to offer a little less and still win a bidding war. We should have given Peat, Hill, Thomas, Kamara, Lattimore, etc fully guaranteed deals because we can never afford to cut any of them anyway and we could have saved money on total contract. Also, if we begin offering players fully guaranteed contracts, it may set a precedent that other teams have to do the same to compete, and by a domino effect it becomes a league wide standard. This could benefit our team because it could neutralize the competitive disadvantage that Mickey Loomis’ cap management strategy imposes on us in being unable to cut players like Peat and Hill to save cap, nobody would be able to cut such players anymore to save cap. We are already doing it, so why not just put it in writing? I see no disadvantage. We are not already doing it. Many contracts are performance based and you cant incentivize with a fully guaranteed contract. Peat is very cutable. Right now his dead cap number is $23.5MM, we designate him a post June 1 cut and he is gone at $13.8MM. Hill goes from $19MM to $8.9MM All three of your examples are cutable. Peat, Hill, and Thomas included in this article. https://www.nfl.com/news/cap-casualt...could-be-moved Post June 1 designations are nothing new and nothing all teams do not already do. https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/a...ir-salary-cap/ Guarantees in NFL contracts are not as cut and dry as you see them, if we guaranteed those contracts fully then we would drown in cap immediately. AsylumGuido, SmashMouth, Rugby Saint II and 1 others like this.
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau Last edited by TheOak; 03-11-2022 at 03:32 PM..

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03-11-2022, 10:15 AM	#6
Rugby Saint II Bounty Money $$$ Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 5800 Airline Dr. Metairie, LA. Posts: 24,052	Re: Should Saints Be First NFL Team to Fully Guarantee Contracts? Originally Posted by TheOak We are not doing it. Many contracts are performance based and you cant incentivize with a fully guaranteed contract. Peat is very cutable. Right now his dead cap number is $23.5MM, we designate him a post June 1 cut and he is gone at $13.8MM. Hill goes from $19MM to $8.9MM All three of your examples are cutable. Peat, Hill, and Thomas included in this article. https://www.nfl.com/news/cap-casualt...could-be-moved Post June 1 designations are nothing new and nothing all teams do not already do. https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/a...ir-salary-cap/ Guarantees in NFL contracts are not as cut and dry as you see them, if we guaranteed those contracts fully then we would drown in cap immediately. You Nailed It Oak! Boston Saint likes this.

03-11-2022, 10:27 AM	#7
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,619 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Should Saints Be First NFL Team to Fully Guarantee Contracts? I wish we would have allowed KC to sign Peat. He's injured a lot & HIGHLY compensated ... missing games. Hopefully Dr. Rhea can help with his strength and conditioning. SmashMouth and jeanpierre like this.

03-11-2022, 10:30 AM	#8
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,216	Re: Should Saints Be First NFL Team to Fully Guarantee Contracts? Originally Posted by K Major I wish we would have allowed KC to sign Peat. He's injured a lot & HIGHLY compensated ... missing games. Hopefully Dr. Rhea can help with his strength and conditioning. Will that prevent the broken forearm and thumb he suffered?

03-12-2022, 02:32 PM	#9
Rugby Saint II Bounty Money $$$ Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 5800 Airline Dr. Metairie, LA. Posts: 24,052	Re: Should Saints Be First NFL Team to Fully Guarantee Contracts? Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Will that prevent the broken forearm and thumb he suffered? You just can't fix fragile! K Major likes this.

03-12-2022, 02:57 PM	#10
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,619 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Should Saints Be First NFL Team to Fully Guarantee Contracts? Originally Posted by Rugby Saint II You just can't fix fragile! Precisely. The guy has been on season ending IR 3 of 5 seasons. I’m glad Dr. Rhea is now on board to help some of these guys with conditioning. Rugby Saint II likes this.