Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

Don’t have a subscription, what’s the gist?

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

Can’t get rid of him. Contract makes it practically impossible. Get used to it.

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

Boston,

I used to agree with this sentiment, but I don't think that's actually true. Come 2023 the Saints are stuck between a rock and a hard place with MT13's contract. It's the first year of the big money ($15.5 million salary) and the big cap hit ($28+ million)

The rock are those numbers. The hard place is that to get rid of those numbers and keep the player, the Saints will have to restructure or extend the current contract. And unfortunately with MT13's 3 year injury history, there simply isn't a scenario that supports that option.

It looks like the only option that makes sense now is to trade/cut MT13 after June 1 of next year. It'll be a $11 million hit in 2023 and I believe an additional $16 million in 2024.

Maybe MT13 will step up and agree to play for the Saints in 2023 for a pay cut. But that's a rare rare option that most NFL players will refuse to take.

SFIAH

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

We shall see. Those are close to the numbers spotrac has as well. Being in the situation they are now 11 and then 13 dead is still too much to take. Restructure will likely happen. Time will tell.

Edit: another thing to note is teams need to be under the cap by March 16th. Waiting until June 1st to deal with his cap hit isn’t an option. A big question too is when hi is likely to “return” after this latest procedure.

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

Here is another thought/issue I’ve had with Thomas. I understand (not necessarily agree) with the “injuries happen and none of this is his fault” angle. However I’ve not seen or heard of him doing much to be a leader even with his injuries. I don’t see him keeping fans posted of his status. Don’t see him tweeting much support for his teammates. I don’t see him on the sidelines rooting the team on and maybe giving tips to younger players as the game goes on. Maybe it’s a small thing, but I’d like to see more from a team leader making the most money on the team. Just my opinion.

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

Good video here ….

Oops, Could not link. My bad. It was a Kamara press conference.

As long as we have Kamara, we have a chance.

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

First I heard of turf toe was Ingram (I laughed at first) then read a little. If recall it took over a season for him to get back to 100%. Ben Grubbs was out with it in the same time frame.

Yoga is/was offered on recovery days, Saints mentioned specifically. Now whether the players participate can be a different story.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...tice/37513937/

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

Oh lord no. Please don't give one more contract extension just to free money up next year. Those contracts prohibit long term growth and we need to get younger in the draft. Play him next year and see what happens.🙈 We could get lucky and have a com back season......don't laugh!

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

:greendevil:Oh lord no. Please don't give one more contract extension just to free money up next year. Those contracts prohibit long term growth and we need to get younger in the draft. Play him next year and see what happens.🙈 We could get lucky and have a com back season......don't laugh!

Sorry about the double post. Yes I've been m drinking.:patos:

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

Fortunately I don't know what Im talking about Rugby!

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

I saw him going crazy for Alontae Taylor when he was standing over Adams last week.

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

Cool. Sorry I missed that. I don’t get a good feed of the games. He may be there and I’m missing it.

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

A few writers tweeted the image. I don't doubt his belief in his teammates or desire to win.

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

Again I don't think that it is possible. With the current contract MT13 counts $28 million against the cap next year. If the Saints want to keep him and they want to free up the money, the only option is a straight pay cut. No player is going to accept that especially with MT13's talent when healthy. There are a number other teams that will roll the dice and pay him a huge new contract with a healthy signing bonus to acquire such talent.

Edit: I think a lot of fans make the mistake of thinking that a restructure or extension or a pay cut is a one sided team option that the player has no input on. As many folks like to tout, the contract is the contract. The player and his representation have to agree to any changes. Typically it happens because both side benefit. The team frees up cap space. The player get guaranteed money in exchange. Take that option away, and the player has no incentive to change anything. That puts the team in a serious cap problem. The only way out of the contract for the team that unilateral is to cut the player. But then the team is still on the hook for any dead bonus money that's paid earlier in the contract.

If MT13 plays for the Saints next year, it's under a restructure or an extension. If you don't want that, the only other option is to cut/trade him.

There's no having cake (having the player play for you) and eating it too (not having an extension/restructure). It's simply not an option.

SFIAH

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

What did you think SFIAH about my point on them needing to get below the salary cap by the March deadline. Doesn’t seem that they can wait on a post June date to cut/trade him.

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

I disagree. There is a great precedent for MT’s value on the open market. Victor Cruz was an elite wide receiver with the Giants. Then he had a 3 year period where he was largely injured and flashed potential but could not put it all together. The Giants cut him and the Bears signed him in 2017. He got a 1 year $2 million deal with $500k signing bonus, did not make the team in training camp, and retired. He was a similar age to Michael Thomas now with elite talent when healthy. There are some differences in the situation and you can argue Thomas might have a little more upside than Cruz did then but overall the precedents for a player missing 40 of 50 games over 3 years and then returning to prove worth a big contract are extremely extremely rare and the precedents for a downward spiral are extremely extremely common. If Michael Thomas gets a big contract this offseason I hope and pray its with a division rival because it would be a horrible gamble.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/chicago-...tor-cruz-8203/

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

He already HAS a big contract Bako. The question is how to best deal with it. Fortunately we’ve got smarter people than us, like Loomis, to figure it out.

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

I don’t believe Loomis is smarter than any of us. Most of us would not have given up CGJ for a 5th, given Peat top 5 guard money, traded next years 1st when we didnt have a sure thing at QB, etc.

My point is that Michael Thomas would not be worth anything close to the remaining unguaranteed money on his contract on the open market. The odds of a big comeback with how long he has been out are less than 10%. The Victor Cruz Bears scenario is more likely. So if we cut him he would not get a big deal. If he somehow did, 90% chance its a disaster. If we made a firm ultimatum on cutting his salary or cutting him, a smart agent would have to compare it with his value on the open market which i would guess is something like 1 year $ 8 million with $2 million guaranteed.

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

There's a post June 1 designation that can be made early in the league year IIRC. Here is an article on the subject:

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/a...eir-salary-cap

Once that designation is done, the player is treated as if they would be released June 1 even though it's March. In terms of salary cap, the cap designation I believe carries as if the player was released June 1. For MT13 that means that the $15.5 salary would come off the books immediately and the Saints would be responsible for the $11 million remaining with the 2 year split of the dead money.

If that's not the case, then the Saints would have to restructure/extend everyone else to carry the full $28 million cap hit for MT13 until June 2nd. It would suck for free agency next offseason if that's the case.

It's a tough spot all the way around. But it's only way to get out from under the back end of this contract without an extension or restructure. Contracts are designed this way. If the player is productive, the team restructures/extends. If not, then they have to cut the player and eat the dead money. There really are no other options. MT13's contract was always designed as a 3 year @ $20 million contract. The extra years were in to stretch out the cap hit from the bonuses paid. There was no intention to pay MT13 $15.5 in salary in 2023. Every long term Saints contract is structured this way.

The Saints are just going to have to eat it. It was a bad roll of the dice.

SFIAH

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

And this is the most interesting question in the entire scenario. What number would that $15.5 million need to be cut down to to keep the player and will the player accept that number?

SFIAH

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

Guido, hope you didn’t take any of those bets you proposed lol.

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

Imagine if the prima donna actually cared.... maybe he would re-negotiate his contract...free up money, get some talent, ala Drew Brees...AND when and IF he ever gets fully healthy...original contract terms can be addressed when he proves himself able. Just a dream.... Prima Donna's do not think like that.:dunce:

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

That's delusional fan thinking believing that players are rabid fans like us and would do anything, even to their own personal detriment, to help the team.

Why don't you go first? Monday morning go to your CEO's office and offer to take a pay cut in order to help the company bottom line.

Dude, for everyone in the NFL it's a career. It's a livelihood. Even though everyone is paid huge amounts of money to do the work, only fool would give up what they worked for in order to better the team.

That is not a dream. That's a delusion. You should get some help for that.

SFIAH

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

All the signing bonus and money converted to bonus in restructures that we have already given to Michael Thomas is a sunk cost. Converting the $15.5 million to guarantee money via a prorated bonus in a restructure would be a bad move, because no sane franchise would offer $15.5 million for one year to a player who has missed 40 of their last 50 games even if he has the level of talent that an RG3, Victor Cruz, Chad Pennington, Julius Thomas, Terrell Davis, Todd Gurley, Al Toon, Sterling Sharpe, Bo Jackson, OBJ, etc had early in their careers.

I think a fair salary reduction for Michael Thomas for 2023 would be between $5-10 million on a prove it deal. Maybe $2 million of it could be guaranteed, a small bonus for agreeing to restructure. The exact amount would depend on a physical and how his recovery is looking. Guaranteeing him $14 million by restructuring most of his 2023 salary to a prorated bonus would save a few bucks in the short term but be a horrible gamble in the long term. There is a small 250k roster bonus due to Thomas in March 2023 but whether or not we pay that is not a big deal since its small money. If Thomas will not to take a pay cut, we can hold onto him until the season is about to start and then cut him them if he is not looking incredibly healthy and dominating preseason. The contract he would get as a late cut next summer coming off 3 years of injury would certainly not be $15.5 million. Therefore, he would have to consider taking the pay cut rather than testing the market with his injury history.

There is the argument though that we should just designate him a post June 1 cut if we don't see ourselves as a Super Bowl contender in 2023 after numerous tough salary cap cuts, possibly losing Dalton or having to overpay him, possibly no 1st round pick if there is not a bidding war for Payton, etc. Thomas has a void year in 2025 anyway. If he somehow recovered in 2023 which I think is less than a 10% chance historically, he still is not a great long term bet to still be good in 2025 or 2026 if we are rebuilding, and even if he was he is a free agent in 2025 anyway. High risk - high reward lottery ticket expenses on injured but talented veterans are sometimes a good play for a team that is right there on the edge of winning it all and needs one more star to win but doesn't have the cap money or picks to pay full price for that star, so they buy a fractional chance of a star at a fraction of the price. See Rams last year with OBJ. But we don't have Matt Stafford. We don't have Aaron Donald. I am not sure the OBJ type gamble makes sense for us, so maybe we just take our cap medicine and rebuild if he would take a big reduction.

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

Oh, well. This ought to make the haters here happy.

:D

Sorry I've been out of the loop. Been visiting Honduras, Belize, and Cozumel on a seven day cruise out of Galveston with extremely limited internet access. Just got home two hours ago. I can well imagine some of the vitriol posted here in this thread and won't waste my time reading any of it. ;)

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

Alvin Kamara fires back at Michael Thomas critics after latest injury update

John Sigler
November 5, 2022 4:13 pm CT

Alvin Kamara has really come into his own this season as one of the leaders on the New Orleans Saints’ roster. Sure, he’s a five-time Pro Bowler and the face of their franchise, but 2022 was the first year in which he earned a captain’s patch on his uniform. And he’s shouldered that new responsibility well in demanding greater accountability in the locker room and defending his teammates from unfair criticism in speaking with the media.

The Saints sent wide receiver Michael Thomas to injured reserve this week after resting him for five games, teeing him up for surgery on a dislocated toe that’s likely going to end his season. It’s led to troubling comments online questioning his commitment to the team and suggesting he’s tapped out after having signed a contract extension. Kamara acknowledged the frustration — this is the third year in a row Thomas has missed significant time with injury — but pushed back against the critics doubting his teammate’s motivation.

“It’s a lot of **** we’ve got to go through,” Kamara told ESPN’s Katherine Terrell, pointing out that fans don’t see the long, painful hours in the trainer’s room working on injury rehab. He added, “A player like that, that’s fighting to get back, not only for his team, but for the fans and for this city … For people to be talking ****, it’s like, ah, it hurts my soul to see that.”

Kamara said that Thomas was optimistic he’d be active for the Raiders game, having taken the team doctors’ advice to rest his injured toe and receive treatment. But the dislocated digit didn’t heal as everyone involved hoped that it would after a recent MRI scan, prompting a change of plans. Thomas is still following doctor’s orders. It’s not like he’s gone rogue again and stopped talking to the team for months.

He’s as frustrated as anyone, which Kamara has seen firsthand. More from his conversation with Terrell: “Nobody’s in here like ‘Let me get injured and not play and just get paid.’ We get paid to play obviously and we want to be available but when you can’t do it, there’s certain things you’ve got to be smart about.”

What’s next for Thomas is anyone’s guess. Things can’t continue as they have considering his contract status. There’s a very real and unfortunate possibility that he’s already caught his last pass in a Saints uniform. But if things work out to where he continues to wear black and gold, Kamara has made it clear he’ll be one of the first teammates to welcome Thomas to their locker room.

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

Oh boy, the dip**** crawled back out of his hole. Can't believe we've lost so many longtime members lately, but we're still stuck with this clown.

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

My "hole" was a Havana Suite on the Carnival Vista out of Galveston for the past week, thank you very much. :bng: Assuming, of course, it was I to whom you were referring. What "hole" have you been in for the past few months? Missed you!

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

I think you missed my point. Restructure/extend is off the table for all the reasons that you've already outlined. I was talking about a straight pay cut where Thomas isn't paid the money period. As you point out all the bonuses are sunk cost and will count against the cap no matter what (play,trade, or cut). However, if the Saints want to keep the player, then the $15.5 million isn't guaranteed. So, it can be negotiated.

What I'm asking is if the Saints offered to keep MT13 in 2023 and only pay him $4 million for example, would that be worth the risk? No extension. No restructure. Just a straight $11 million pay cut?

The only problem with this approach is that the Saints would have to carry the entire $28 million 2023 cap hit for the entire offseason process. That will hamstring the team badly in their other offseason endeavors. The Saints and MT13 need to figure this out in February. If MT13 and his representation won't agree to the salary reduction, the Saints should simply designate him a June 1 cut and let him go, carrying the $11 million sunk cost in 2023 and I believe the remaining $16 million in $2024.

Lots of fans have been barking about MT13's commitment to the team. How this resolution comes out will be the demonstration, or lack thereof, of that commitment.
I'm in agreement with this. If MT13 isn't willing to cut salary to match production and recent injury history, then letting him go is really the Saints' only option. I just keep posting items like this because there's a contingent of fans on the boards who thinks he can just come back next year with no consequence or changes to the contract. But in short, no pay cut, no MT13 in 2023.

SFIAH

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

I am not sick at home or injured sitting the bench.. I actually perform my tasks as I am paid for. Seems your nose is a bit brown there my somewhat ignorant friend.:dunce: Guess Brees was delusional...he was healthy and playing at the time of his delusional decision:dunce:


https://www.nfl.com/news/saints-rene...-space-in-2021

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

LMAO.... thug Karmara will be suspended for 6 games.... end of season for the Saints... new video shows Karmara beating the helpless victim....:dunce:

Reference...liberal source ought to satisfy you little guido

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...amaras-status/

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

ASSUME...LMAO.... :dunce:

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

First off as many fans love to say "the contract is the contract" It's guaranteed for injury. Do you work at a job that has a 100% injury rate? If you did, your contract would probably be guaranteed for injury too.

As for Brees, look at the date. That was in the 2021 offseason. Brees had likely already decided to retire. He wasn't to play in 2021. So, dropping that salary only served for cap cost accounting purposes since that 2021 salary was never going to be paid anyway. That article actually has a link to an earlier article where Brees restructured to help the team out in a cap situation in 2019. But it wasn't a pay cut. It was a restructure moving salary to bonus and pushing the payments into further cap years. Cap years like this year where the Saints are still paying $11 million to the cap for Brees in dead money. So, did he really help the team? It's more of a toss up than it looks.

There's no ignorance here. I'm simply explaining the system as it works. You are railing against both the player and the system because you don't like how either works.

But if you are right and MT13 is a lazy, selfish, prima donna, then you are going to get your wish. The Saints cannot carry a $28 million cap hit for MT13 into 2023. And the supposedly selfish player likely won't take an actual pay cut on the current contract. So, the team will cut him, he will be gone, and you hopefully will finally be happy.

So, here's my question to you: Olave gives the Saints 5 stellar years of service and it's now time for that second contract. Given what happened with Thomas, what do you think the Saints ought to do? Play for performance is off the table as Olave will simply go to free agency and get paid by a team that will give the huge signing bonus and injury guarantees.

Has a team been successful with only talent on rookie contracts? Because that's the only way teams can get the value that you seek. Under your wishing scheme, the Saints wouldn't have Ram, Lattimore, Kamara, Jordan or any other long time veterans.

SFIAH

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

To your question....Learn from it and not be stupid is all.:dunce:

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

hurts his soul he says. he wasn't the one getting pounded in the face. It was m...f....er how does that feel as he's pounding the dude. The start of damage control at it's very best.... more to come, just watch.

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

Learn what sir? Learn to predict the future? Learn to never give long term contracts?

I'm trying to have a serious conversation about management of these issues and all you seem to have is meaningless pithy quips.

Without a doubt the :dunce: emoji you use in every post really does apply.

SFIAH

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

I'll give you another chance to specifically answer my question:

So what should be done by the Saints to "not be stupid." in this situation? Please be specific in your answer. Note that we are on the Internet, so there isn't a word limit.

SFIAH

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

I’ll answer it bro. For one, I fully expect Olave to do what you’re proposing. Two, you gotta pay him when he does. If you wanna win a Super Bowl you’re gonna pay for it.

Re: Michael Thomas to IR
 

I blocked the :dunce: over a year ago, SFIAH. It is impossible to have any conversation with the :dunce: because :dunce: has no meaningful understanding of any subject :dunce: broaches.

:D