Michael Thomas to IR

rezburna · 11-04-2022, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Saint

Here is another thought/issue I’ve had with Thomas. I understand (not necessarily agree) with the “injuries happen and none of this is his fault” angle. However I’ve not seen or heard of him doing much to be a leader even with his injuries. I don’t see him keeping fans posted of his status. Don’t see him tweeting much support for his teammates. I don’t see him on the sidelines rooting the team on and maybe giving tips to younger players as the game goes on. Maybe it’s a small thing, but I’d like to see more from a team leader making the most money on the team. Just my opinion.

I saw him going crazy for Alontae Taylor when he was standing over Adams last week.

Boston Saint · 11-04-2022, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by rezburna

I saw him going crazy for Alontae Taylor when he was standing over Adams last week.

Cool. Sorry I missed that. I don’t get a good feed of the games. He may be there and I’m missing it.

saintsfan1976 · 11-05-2022, 06:41 AM

Originally Posted by Boston Saint

Cool. Sorry I missed that. I don’t get a good feed of the games. He may be there and I’m missing it.

A few writers tweeted the image. I don't doubt his belief in his teammates or desire to win.

SaintFanInATLHELL · 11-05-2022, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by Rugby Saint II

Oh lord no. Please don't give one more contract extension just to free money up next year. Those contracts prohibit long term growth and we need to get younger in the draft. Play him next year and see what happens.🙈 We could get lucky and have a com back season......don't laugh!

Again I don't think that it is possible. With the current contract MT13 counts $28 million against the cap next year. If the Saints want to keep him and they want to free up the money, the only option is a straight pay cut. No player is going to accept that especially with MT13's talent when healthy. There are a number other teams that will roll the dice and pay him a huge new contract with a healthy signing bonus to acquire such talent.

Edit: I think a lot of fans make the mistake of thinking that a restructure or extension or a pay cut is a one sided team option that the player has no input on. As many folks like to tout, the contract is the contract. The player and his representation have to agree to any changes. Typically it happens because both side benefit. The team frees up cap space. The player get guaranteed money in exchange. Take that option away, and the player has no incentive to change anything. That puts the team in a serious cap problem. The only way out of the contract for the team that unilateral is to cut the player. But then the team is still on the hook for any dead bonus money that's paid earlier in the contract.

If MT13 plays for the Saints next year, it's under a restructure or an extension. If you don't want that, the only other option is to cut/trade him.

There's no having cake (having the player play for you) and eating it too (not having an extension/restructure). It's simply not an option.

SFIAH

Boston Saint · 11-05-2022, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

Again I don't think that it is possible. With the current contract MT13 counts $28 million against the cap next year. If the Saints want to keep him and they want to free up the money, the only option is a straight pay cut. No player is going to accept that especially with MT13's talent when healthy. There are a number other teams that will roll the dice and pay him a huge new contract with a healthy signing bonus to acquire such talent.

If MT13 plays for the Saints next year, it's under a restructure or an extension. If you don't want that, the only other option is to cut/trade him.

There's no having cake (having the player play for you) and eating it too (not having an extension/restructure). It's simply not an option.

SFIAH

What did you think SFIAH about my point on them needing to get below the salary cap by the March deadline. Doesn’t seem that they can wait on a post June date to cut/trade him.

BakoSaint · 11-05-2022, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

Again I don't think that it is possible. With the current contract MT13 counts $28 million against the cap next year. If the Saints want to keep him and they want to free up the money, the only option is a straight pay cut. No player is going to accept that especially with MT13's talent when healthy. There are a number other teams that will roll the dice and pay him a huge new contract with a healthy signing bonus to acquire such talent.

If MT13 plays for the Saints next year, it's under a restructure or an extension. If you don't want that, the only other option is to cut/trade him.

There's no having cake (having the player play for you) and eating it too (not having an extension/restructure). It's simply not an option.

SFIAH

I disagree. There is a great precedent for MT’s value on the open market. Victor Cruz was an elite wide receiver with the Giants. Then he had a 3 year period where he was largely injured and flashed potential but could not put it all together. The Giants cut him and the Bears signed him in 2017. He got a 1 year $2 million deal with $500k signing bonus, did not make the team in training camp, and retired. He was a similar age to Michael Thomas now with elite talent when healthy. There are some differences in the situation and you can argue Thomas might have a little more upside than Cruz did then but overall the precedents for a player missing 40 of 50 games over 3 years and then returning to prove worth a big contract are extremely extremely rare and the precedents for a downward spiral are extremely extremely common. If Michael Thomas gets a big contract this offseason I hope and pray its with a division rival because it would be a horrible gamble.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/chicago-...tor-cruz-8203/

Boston Saint · 11-05-2022, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by BakoSaint

I disagree. There is a great precedent for MT’s value on the open market. Victor Cruz was an elite wide receiver with the Giants. Then he had a 3 year period where he was largely injured and flashed potential but could not put it all together. The Giants cut him and the Bears signed him in 2017. He got a 1 year $2 million deal with $500k signing bonus, did not make the team in training camp, and retired. He was a similar age to Michael Thomas now with elite talent when healthy. There are some differences in the situation and you can argue Thomas might have a little more upside than Cruz did then but overall the precedents for a player missing 40 of 50 games over 3 years and then returning to prove worth a big contract are extremely extremely rare and the precedents for a downward spiral are extremely extremely common. If Michael Thomas gets a big contract this offseason I hope and pray its with a division rival because it would be a horrible gamble.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/chicago-...tor-cruz-8203/

He already HAS a big contract Bako. The question is how to best deal with it. Fortunately we’ve got smarter people than us, like Loomis, to figure it out.

BakoSaint · 11-05-2022, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by Boston Saint

He already HAS a big contract Bako. The question is how to best deal with it. Fortunately we’ve got smarter people than us, like Loomis, to figure it out.

I don’t believe Loomis is smarter than any of us. Most of us would not have given up CGJ for a 5th, given Peat top 5 guard money, traded next years 1st when we didnt have a sure thing at QB, etc.

My point is that Michael Thomas would not be worth anything close to the remaining unguaranteed money on his contract on the open market. The odds of a big comeback with how long he has been out are less than 10%. The Victor Cruz Bears scenario is more likely. So if we cut him he would not get a big deal. If he somehow did, 90% chance its a disaster. If we made a firm ultimatum on cutting his salary or cutting him, a smart agent would have to compare it with his value on the open market which i would guess is something like 1 year $ 8 million with $2 million guaranteed.

SaintFanInATLHELL · 11-05-2022, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by Boston Saint

What did you think SFIAH about my point on them needing to get below the salary cap by the March deadline. Doesn’t seem that they can wait on a post June date to cut/trade him.

There's a post June 1 designation that can be made early in the league year IIRC. Here is an article on the subject:

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/a...eir-salary-cap

Once that designation is done, the player is treated as if they would be released June 1 even though it's March. In terms of salary cap, the cap designation I believe carries as if the player was released June 1. For MT13 that means that the $15.5 salary would come off the books immediately and the Saints would be responsible for the $11 million remaining with the 2 year split of the dead money.

If that's not the case, then the Saints would have to restructure/extend everyone else to carry the full $28 million cap hit for MT13 until June 2nd. It would suck for free agency next offseason if that's the case.

It's a tough spot all the way around. But it's only way to get out from under the back end of this contract without an extension or restructure. Contracts are designed this way. If the player is productive, the team restructures/extends. If not, then they have to cut the player and eat the dead money. There really are no other options. MT13's contract was always designed as a 3 year @ $20 million contract. The extra years were in to stretch out the cap hit from the bonuses paid. There was no intention to pay MT13 $15.5 in salary in 2023. Every long term Saints contract is structured this way.

The Saints are just going to have to eat it. It was a bad roll of the dice.

SFIAH

SaintFanInATLHELL · 11-05-2022, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by BakoSaint

I don’t believe Loomis is smarter than any of us. Most of us would not have given up CGJ for a 5th, given Peat top 5 guard money, traded next years 1st when we didnt have a sure thing at QB, etc.

My point is that Michael Thomas would not be worth anything close to the remaining unguaranteed money on his contract on the open market. The odds of a big comeback with how long he has been out are less than 10%. The Victor Cruz Bears scenario is more likely. So if we cut him he would not get a big deal. If he somehow did, 90% chance its a disaster. If we made a firm ultimatum on cutting his salary or cutting him, a smart agent would have to compare it with his value on the open market which i would guess is something like 1 year $ 8 million with $2 million guaranteed.

And this is the most interesting question in the entire scenario. What number would that $15.5 million need to be cut down to to keep the player and will the player accept that number?

SFIAH

11-04-2022, 07:37 PM	#51
rezburna 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Kenner, LA Posts: 7,848	Re: Michael Thomas to IR Originally Posted by Boston Saint Here is another thought/issue I’ve had with Thomas. I understand (not necessarily agree) with the “injuries happen and none of this is his fault” angle. However I’ve not seen or heard of him doing much to be a leader even with his injuries. I don’t see him keeping fans posted of his status. Don’t see him tweeting much support for his teammates. I don’t see him on the sidelines rooting the team on and maybe giving tips to younger players as the game goes on. Maybe it’s a small thing, but I’d like to see more from a team leader making the most money on the team. Just my opinion. I saw him going crazy for Alontae Taylor when he was standing over Adams last week. Boston Saint likes this.

11-04-2022, 07:41 PM	#52
Boston Saint 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Nov 2020 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 5,137	Re: Michael Thomas to IR Originally Posted by rezburna I saw him going crazy for Alontae Taylor when he was standing over Adams last week. Cool. Sorry I missed that. I don’t get a good feed of the games. He may be there and I’m missing it.

11-05-2022, 06:41 AM	#53
saintsfan1976 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Atlanta Posts: 10,806 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Michael Thomas to IR Originally Posted by Boston Saint Cool. Sorry I missed that. I don’t get a good feed of the games. He may be there and I’m missing it. A few writers tweeted the image. I don't doubt his belief in his teammates or desire to win. K Major likes this.

11-05-2022, 10:37 AM	#54
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,773	Re: Michael Thomas to IR Originally Posted by Rugby Saint II Oh lord no. Please don't give one more contract extension just to free money up next year. Those contracts prohibit long term growth and we need to get younger in the draft. Play him next year and see what happens.🙈 We could get lucky and have a com back season......don't laugh! Again I don't think that it is possible. With the current contract MT13 counts $28 million against the cap next year. If the Saints want to keep him and they want to free up the money, the only option is a straight pay cut. No player is going to accept that especially with MT13's talent when healthy. There are a number other teams that will roll the dice and pay him a huge new contract with a healthy signing bonus to acquire such talent. Edit: I think a lot of fans make the mistake of thinking that a restructure or extension or a pay cut is a one sided team option that the player has no input on. As many folks like to tout, the contract is the contract. The player and his representation have to agree to any changes. Typically it happens because both side benefit. The team frees up cap space. The player get guaranteed money in exchange. Take that option away, and the player has no incentive to change anything. That puts the team in a serious cap problem. The only way out of the contract for the team that unilateral is to cut the player. But then the team is still on the hook for any dead bonus money that's paid earlier in the contract. If MT13 plays for the Saints next year, it's under a restructure or an extension. If you don't want that, the only other option is to cut/trade him. There's no having cake (having the player play for you) and eating it too (not having an extension/restructure). It's simply not an option. SFIAH Rugby Saint II and Boston Saint like this.
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

11-05-2022, 10:49 AM	#55
Boston Saint 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Nov 2020 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 5,137	Re: Michael Thomas to IR Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL Again I don't think that it is possible. With the current contract MT13 counts $28 million against the cap next year. If the Saints want to keep him and they want to free up the money, the only option is a straight pay cut. No player is going to accept that especially with MT13's talent when healthy. There are a number other teams that will roll the dice and pay him a huge new contract with a healthy signing bonus to acquire such talent. If MT13 plays for the Saints next year, it's under a restructure or an extension. If you don't want that, the only other option is to cut/trade him. There's no having cake (having the player play for you) and eating it too (not having an extension/restructure). It's simply not an option. SFIAH What did you think SFIAH about my point on them needing to get below the salary cap by the March deadline. Doesn’t seem that they can wait on a post June date to cut/trade him.

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11-05-2022, 10:56 AM	#56
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,091	Re: Michael Thomas to IR Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL Again I don't think that it is possible. With the current contract MT13 counts $28 million against the cap next year. If the Saints want to keep him and they want to free up the money, the only option is a straight pay cut. No player is going to accept that especially with MT13's talent when healthy. There are a number other teams that will roll the dice and pay him a huge new contract with a healthy signing bonus to acquire such talent. If MT13 plays for the Saints next year, it's under a restructure or an extension. If you don't want that, the only other option is to cut/trade him. There's no having cake (having the player play for you) and eating it too (not having an extension/restructure). It's simply not an option. SFIAH I disagree. There is a great precedent for MT’s value on the open market. Victor Cruz was an elite wide receiver with the Giants. Then he had a 3 year period where he was largely injured and flashed potential but could not put it all together. The Giants cut him and the Bears signed him in 2017. He got a 1 year $2 million deal with $500k signing bonus, did not make the team in training camp, and retired. He was a similar age to Michael Thomas now with elite talent when healthy. There are some differences in the situation and you can argue Thomas might have a little more upside than Cruz did then but overall the precedents for a player missing 40 of 50 games over 3 years and then returning to prove worth a big contract are extremely extremely rare and the precedents for a downward spiral are extremely extremely common. If Michael Thomas gets a big contract this offseason I hope and pray its with a division rival because it would be a horrible gamble. https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/chicago-...tor-cruz-8203/
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,091

11-05-2022, 11:00 AM	#57
Boston Saint 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Nov 2020 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 5,137	Re: Michael Thomas to IR Originally Posted by BakoSaint I disagree. There is a great precedent for MT’s value on the open market. Victor Cruz was an elite wide receiver with the Giants. Then he had a 3 year period where he was largely injured and flashed potential but could not put it all together. The Giants cut him and the Bears signed him in 2017. He got a 1 year $2 million deal with $500k signing bonus, did not make the team in training camp, and retired. He was a similar age to Michael Thomas now with elite talent when healthy. There are some differences in the situation and you can argue Thomas might have a little more upside than Cruz did then but overall the precedents for a player missing 40 of 50 games over 3 years and then returning to prove worth a big contract are extremely extremely rare and the precedents for a downward spiral are extremely extremely common. If Michael Thomas gets a big contract this offseason I hope and pray its with a division rival because it would be a horrible gamble. https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/chicago-...tor-cruz-8203/ He already HAS a big contract Bako. The question is how to best deal with it. Fortunately we’ve got smarter people than us, like Loomis, to figure it out.

11-05-2022, 11:08 AM	#58
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,091	Re: Michael Thomas to IR Originally Posted by Boston Saint He already HAS a big contract Bako. The question is how to best deal with it. Fortunately we’ve got smarter people than us, like Loomis, to figure it out. I don’t believe Loomis is smarter than any of us. Most of us would not have given up CGJ for a 5th, given Peat top 5 guard money, traded next years 1st when we didnt have a sure thing at QB, etc. My point is that Michael Thomas would not be worth anything close to the remaining unguaranteed money on his contract on the open market. The odds of a big comeback with how long he has been out are less than 10%. The Victor Cruz Bears scenario is more likely. So if we cut him he would not get a big deal. If he somehow did, 90% chance its a disaster. If we made a firm ultimatum on cutting his salary or cutting him, a smart agent would have to compare it with his value on the open market which i would guess is something like 1 year $ 8 million with $2 million guaranteed.
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,091

11-05-2022, 11:11 AM	#59
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,773	Re: Michael Thomas to IR Originally Posted by Boston Saint What did you think SFIAH about my point on them needing to get below the salary cap by the March deadline. Doesn’t seem that they can wait on a post June date to cut/trade him. There's a post June 1 designation that can be made early in the league year IIRC. Here is an article on the subject: https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/a...eir-salary-cap Once that designation is done, the player is treated as if they would be released June 1 even though it's March. In terms of salary cap, the cap designation I believe carries as if the player was released June 1. For MT13 that means that the $15.5 salary would come off the books immediately and the Saints would be responsible for the $11 million remaining with the 2 year split of the dead money. If that's not the case, then the Saints would have to restructure/extend everyone else to carry the full $28 million cap hit for MT13 until June 2nd. It would suck for free agency next offseason if that's the case. It's a tough spot all the way around. But it's only way to get out from under the back end of this contract without an extension or restructure. Contracts are designed this way. If the player is productive, the team restructures/extends. If not, then they have to cut the player and eat the dead money. There really are no other options. MT13's contract was always designed as a 3 year @ $20 million contract. The extra years were in to stretch out the cap hit from the bonuses paid. There was no intention to pay MT13 $15.5 in salary in 2023. Every long term Saints contract is structured this way. The Saints are just going to have to eat it. It was a bad roll of the dice. SFIAH
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

11-05-2022, 11:15 AM	#60
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,773	Re: Michael Thomas to IR Originally Posted by BakoSaint I don’t believe Loomis is smarter than any of us. Most of us would not have given up CGJ for a 5th, given Peat top 5 guard money, traded next years 1st when we didnt have a sure thing at QB, etc. My point is that Michael Thomas would not be worth anything close to the remaining unguaranteed money on his contract on the open market. The odds of a big comeback with how long he has been out are less than 10%. The Victor Cruz Bears scenario is more likely. So if we cut him he would not get a big deal. If he somehow did, 90% chance its a disaster. If we made a firm ultimatum on cutting his salary or cutting him, a smart agent would have to compare it with his value on the open market which i would guess is something like 1 year $ 8 million with $2 million guaranteed. And this is the most interesting question in the entire scenario. What number would that $15.5 million need to be cut down to to keep the player and will the player accept that number? SFIAH