Michael Thomas to IR

The Dude · 11-05-2022, 12:23 PM

Guido, hope you didn’t take any of those bets you proposed lol.

mapcow · 11-05-2022, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Saint

Can’t get rid of him. Contract makes it practically impossible. Get used to it.

Imagine if the prima donna actually cared.... maybe he would re-negotiate his contract...free up money, get some talent, ala Drew Brees...AND when and IF he ever gets fully healthy...original contract terms can be addressed when he proves himself able. Just a dream.... Prima Donna's do not think like that.

SaintFanInATLHELL · 11-05-2022, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by mapcow

Imagine if the prima donna actually cared.... maybe he would re-negotiate his contract...free up money, get some talent, ala Drew Brees...AND when and IF he ever gets fully healthy...original contract terms can be addressed when he proves himself able. Just a dream.... Prima Donna's do not think like that.

That's delusional fan thinking believing that players are rabid fans like us and would do anything, even to their own personal detriment, to help the team.

Why don't you go first? Monday morning go to your CEO's office and offer to take a pay cut in order to help the company bottom line.

Dude, for everyone in the NFL it's a career. It's a livelihood. Even though everyone is paid huge amounts of money to do the work, only fool would give up what they worked for in order to better the team.

That is not a dream. That's a delusion. You should get some help for that.

SFIAH

K Major · 11-05-2022, 01:39 PM

Alvin Kamara calls out fans, media for bashing Michael Thomas over injury: 'It irks my soul' - YouTube

BakoSaint · 11-05-2022, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

And this is the most interesting question in the entire scenario. What number would that $15.5 million need to be cut down to to keep the player and will the player accept that number?

SFIAH

All the signing bonus and money converted to bonus in restructures that we have already given to Michael Thomas is a sunk cost. Converting the $15.5 million to guarantee money via a prorated bonus in a restructure would be a bad move, because no sane franchise would offer $15.5 million for one year to a player who has missed 40 of their last 50 games even if he has the level of talent that an RG3, Victor Cruz, Chad Pennington, Julius Thomas, Terrell Davis, Todd Gurley, Al Toon, Sterling Sharpe, Bo Jackson, OBJ, etc had early in their careers.

I think a fair salary reduction for Michael Thomas for 2023 would be between $5-10 million on a prove it deal. Maybe $2 million of it could be guaranteed, a small bonus for agreeing to restructure. The exact amount would depend on a physical and how his recovery is looking. Guaranteeing him $14 million by restructuring most of his 2023 salary to a prorated bonus would save a few bucks in the short term but be a horrible gamble in the long term. There is a small 250k roster bonus due to Thomas in March 2023 but whether or not we pay that is not a big deal since its small money. If Thomas will not to take a pay cut, we can hold onto him until the season is about to start and then cut him them if he is not looking incredibly healthy and dominating preseason. The contract he would get as a late cut next summer coming off 3 years of injury would certainly not be $15.5 million. Therefore, he would have to consider taking the pay cut rather than testing the market with his injury history.

There is the argument though that we should just designate him a post June 1 cut if we don't see ourselves as a Super Bowl contender in 2023 after numerous tough salary cap cuts, possibly losing Dalton or having to overpay him, possibly no 1st round pick if there is not a bidding war for Payton, etc. Thomas has a void year in 2025 anyway. If he somehow recovered in 2023 which I think is less than a 10% chance historically, he still is not a great long term bet to still be good in 2025 or 2026 if we are rebuilding, and even if he was he is a free agent in 2025 anyway. High risk - high reward lottery ticket expenses on injured but talented veterans are sometimes a good play for a team that is right there on the edge of winning it all and needs one more star to win but doesn't have the cap money or picks to pay full price for that star, so they buy a fractional chance of a star at a fraction of the price. See Rams last year with OBJ. But we don't have Matt Stafford. We don't have Aaron Donald. I am not sure the OBJ type gamble makes sense for us, so maybe we just take our cap medicine and rebuild if he would take a big reduction.

AsylumGuido · 11-05-2022, 05:16 PM

Oh, well. This ought to make the haters here happy.

Sorry I've been out of the loop. Been visiting Honduras, Belize, and Cozumel on a seven day cruise out of Galveston with extremely limited internet access. Just got home two hours ago. I can well imagine some of the vitriol posted here in this thread and won't waste my time reading any of it.

AsylumGuido · 11-05-2022, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by K Major

Alvin Kamara calls out fans, media for bashing Michael Thomas over injury: 'It irks my soul' - YouTube

Alvin Kamara fires back at Michael Thomas critics after latest injury update

John Sigler
November 5, 2022 4:13 pm CT

Alvin Kamara has really come into his own this season as one of the leaders on the New Orleans Saints’ roster. Sure, he’s a five-time Pro Bowler and the face of their franchise, but 2022 was the first year in which he earned a captain’s patch on his uniform. And he’s shouldered that new responsibility well in demanding greater accountability in the locker room and defending his teammates from unfair criticism in speaking with the media.

The Saints sent wide receiver Michael Thomas to injured reserve this week after resting him for five games, teeing him up for surgery on a dislocated toe that’s likely going to end his season. It’s led to troubling comments online questioning his commitment to the team and suggesting he’s tapped out after having signed a contract extension. Kamara acknowledged the frustration — this is the third year in a row Thomas has missed significant time with injury — but pushed back against the critics doubting his teammate’s motivation.

“It’s a lot of **** we’ve got to go through,” Kamara told ESPN’s Katherine Terrell, pointing out that fans don’t see the long, painful hours in the trainer’s room working on injury rehab. He added, “A player like that, that’s fighting to get back, not only for his team, but for the fans and for this city … For people to be talking ****, it’s like, ah, it hurts my soul to see that.”

Kamara said that Thomas was optimistic he’d be active for the Raiders game, having taken the team doctors’ advice to rest his injured toe and receive treatment. But the dislocated digit didn’t heal as everyone involved hoped that it would after a recent MRI scan, prompting a change of plans. Thomas is still following doctor’s orders. It’s not like he’s gone rogue again and stopped talking to the team for months.

He’s as frustrated as anyone, which Kamara has seen firsthand. More from his conversation with Terrell: “Nobody’s in here like ‘Let me get injured and not play and just get paid.’ We get paid to play obviously and we want to be available but when you can’t do it, there’s certain things you’ve got to be smart about.”

What’s next for Thomas is anyone’s guess. Things can’t continue as they have considering his contract status. There’s a very real and unfortunate possibility that he’s already caught his last pass in a Saints uniform. But if things work out to where he continues to wear black and gold, Kamara has made it clear he’ll be one of the first teammates to welcome Thomas to their locker room.

frydaddy · 11-05-2022, 08:41 PM

Oh boy, the dip**** crawled back out of his hole. Can't believe we've lost so many longtime members lately, but we're still stuck with this clown.

AsylumGuido · 11-05-2022, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by frydaddy

Oh boy, the dip**** crawled back out of his hole. Can't believe we've lost so many longtime members lately, but we're still stuck with this clown.

My "hole" was a Havana Suite on the Carnival Vista out of Galveston for the past week, thank you very much.

Assuming, of course, it was I to whom you were referring. What "hole" have you been in for the past few months? Missed you!

SaintFanInATLHELL · 11-06-2022, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by BakoSaint

All the signing bonus and money converted to bonus in restructures that we have already given to Michael Thomas is a sunk cost. Converting the $15.5 million to guarantee money via a prorated bonus in a restructure would be a bad move, because no sane franchise would offer $15.5 million for one year to a player who has missed 40 of their last 50 games even if he has the level of talent that an RG3, Victor Cruz, Chad Pennington, Julius Thomas, Terrell Davis, Todd Gurley, Al Toon, Sterling Sharpe, Bo Jackson, OBJ, etc had early in their careers.

I think you missed my point. Restructure/extend is off the table for all the reasons that you've already outlined. I was talking about a straight pay cut where Thomas isn't paid the money period. As you point out all the bonuses are sunk cost and will count against the cap no matter what (play,trade, or cut). However, if the Saints want to keep the player, then the $15.5 million isn't guaranteed. So, it can be negotiated.

What I'm asking is if the Saints offered to keep MT13 in 2023 and only pay him $4 million for example, would that be worth the risk? No extension. No restructure. Just a straight $11 million pay cut?

I think a fair salary reduction for Michael Thomas for 2023 would be between $5-10 million on a prove it deal. Maybe $2 million of it could be guaranteed, a small bonus for agreeing to restructure. The exact amount would depend on a physical and how his recovery is looking. Guaranteeing him $14 million by restructuring most of his 2023 salary to a prorated bonus would save a few bucks in the short term but be a horrible gamble in the long term. There is a small 250k roster bonus due to Thomas in March 2023 but whether or not we pay that is not a big deal since its small money. If Thomas will not to take a pay cut, we can hold onto him until the season is about to start and then cut him them if he is not looking incredibly healthy and dominating preseason. The contract he would get as a late cut next summer coming off 3 years of injury would certainly not be $15.5 million. Therefore, he would have to consider taking the pay cut rather than testing the market with his injury history.

The only problem with this approach is that the Saints would have to carry the entire $28 million 2023 cap hit for the entire offseason process. That will hamstring the team badly in their other offseason endeavors. The Saints and MT13 need to figure this out in February. If MT13 and his representation won't agree to the salary reduction, the Saints should simply designate him a June 1 cut and let him go, carrying the $11 million sunk cost in 2023 and I believe the remaining $16 million in $2024.

Lots of fans have been barking about MT13's commitment to the team. How this resolution comes out will be the demonstration, or lack thereof, of that commitment.

There is the argument though that we should just designate him a post June 1 cut if we don't see ourselves as a Super Bowl contender in 2023 after numerous tough salary cap cuts, possibly losing Dalton or having to overpay him, possibly no 1st round pick if there is not a bidding war for Payton, etc. Thomas has a void year in 2025 anyway. If he somehow recovered in 2023 which I think is less than a 10% chance historically, he still is not a great long term bet to still be good in 2025 or 2026 if we are rebuilding, and even if he was he is a free agent in 2025 anyway. High risk - high reward lottery ticket expenses on injured but talented veterans are sometimes a good play for a team that is right there on the edge of winning it all and needs one more star to win but doesn't have the cap money or picks to pay full price for that star, so they buy a fractional chance of a star at a fraction of the price. See Rams last year with OBJ. But we don't have Matt Stafford. We don't have Aaron Donald. I am not sure the OBJ type gamble makes sense for us, so maybe we just take our cap medicine and rebuild if he would take a big reduction.

I'm in agreement with this. If MT13 isn't willing to cut salary to match production and recent injury history, then letting him go is really the Saints' only option. I just keep posting items like this because there's a contingent of fans on the boards who thinks he can just come back next year with no consequence or changes to the contract. But in short, no pay cut, no MT13 in 2023.

SFIAH

11-05-2022, 12:23 PM	#61
The Dude 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 9,048	Re: Michael Thomas to IR Guido, hope you didn’t take any of those bets you proposed lol. jnormand likes this.
The Dude 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 9,048

11-05-2022, 12:27 PM	#62
mapcow Just a Fan Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 1,753	Re: Michael Thomas to IR Originally Posted by Boston Saint Can’t get rid of him. Contract makes it practically impossible. Get used to it. Imagine if the prima donna actually cared.... maybe he would re-negotiate his contract...free up money, get some talent, ala Drew Brees...AND when and IF he ever gets fully healthy...original contract terms can be addressed when he proves himself able. Just a dream.... Prima Donna's do not think like that. jnormand likes this.
mapcow Just a Fan Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 1,753

11-05-2022, 12:46 PM	#63
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,773	Re: Michael Thomas to IR Originally Posted by mapcow Imagine if the prima donna actually cared.... maybe he would re-negotiate his contract...free up money, get some talent, ala Drew Brees...AND when and IF he ever gets fully healthy...original contract terms can be addressed when he proves himself able. Just a dream.... Prima Donna's do not think like that. That's delusional fan thinking believing that players are rabid fans like us and would do anything, even to their own personal detriment, to help the team. Why don't you go first? Monday morning go to your CEO's office and offer to take a pay cut in order to help the company bottom line. Dude, for everyone in the NFL it's a career. It's a livelihood. Even though everyone is paid huge amounts of money to do the work, only fool would give up what they worked for in order to better the team. That is not a dream. That's a delusion. You should get some help for that. SFIAH AsylumGuido likes this.
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

11-05-2022, 03:10 PM	#65
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,135	Re: Michael Thomas to IR Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL And this is the most interesting question in the entire scenario. What number would that $15.5 million need to be cut down to to keep the player and will the player accept that number? SFIAH All the signing bonus and money converted to bonus in restructures that we have already given to Michael Thomas is a sunk cost. Converting the $15.5 million to guarantee money via a prorated bonus in a restructure would be a bad move, because no sane franchise would offer $15.5 million for one year to a player who has missed 40 of their last 50 games even if he has the level of talent that an RG3, Victor Cruz, Chad Pennington, Julius Thomas, Terrell Davis, Todd Gurley, Al Toon, Sterling Sharpe, Bo Jackson, OBJ, etc had early in their careers. I think a fair salary reduction for Michael Thomas for 2023 would be between $5-10 million on a prove it deal. Maybe $2 million of it could be guaranteed, a small bonus for agreeing to restructure. The exact amount would depend on a physical and how his recovery is looking. Guaranteeing him $14 million by restructuring most of his 2023 salary to a prorated bonus would save a few bucks in the short term but be a horrible gamble in the long term. There is a small 250k roster bonus due to Thomas in March 2023 but whether or not we pay that is not a big deal since its small money. If Thomas will not to take a pay cut, we can hold onto him until the season is about to start and then cut him them if he is not looking incredibly healthy and dominating preseason. The contract he would get as a late cut next summer coming off 3 years of injury would certainly not be $15.5 million. Therefore, he would have to consider taking the pay cut rather than testing the market with his injury history. There is the argument though that we should just designate him a post June 1 cut if we don't see ourselves as a Super Bowl contender in 2023 after numerous tough salary cap cuts, possibly losing Dalton or having to overpay him, possibly no 1st round pick if there is not a bidding war for Payton, etc. Thomas has a void year in 2025 anyway. If he somehow recovered in 2023 which I think is less than a 10% chance historically, he still is not a great long term bet to still be good in 2025 or 2026 if we are rebuilding, and even if he was he is a free agent in 2025 anyway. High risk - high reward lottery ticket expenses on injured but talented veterans are sometimes a good play for a team that is right there on the edge of winning it all and needs one more star to win but doesn't have the cap money or picks to pay full price for that star, so they buy a fractional chance of a star at a fraction of the price. See Rams last year with OBJ. But we don't have Matt Stafford. We don't have Aaron Donald. I am not sure the OBJ type gamble makes sense for us, so maybe we just take our cap medicine and rebuild if he would take a big reduction.
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,135

11-05-2022, 05:16 PM	#66
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,220	Re: Michael Thomas to IR Oh, well. This ought to make the haters here happy. Sorry I've been out of the loop. Been visiting Honduras, Belize, and Cozumel on a seven day cruise out of Galveston with extremely limited internet access. Just got home two hours ago. I can well imagine some of the vitriol posted here in this thread and won't waste my time reading any of it. Rugby Saint II likes this.

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11-05-2022, 05:43 PM	#67
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,220	Re: Michael Thomas to IR Originally Posted by K Major Alvin Kamara calls out fans, media for bashing Michael Thomas over injury: 'It irks my soul' - YouTube Alvin Kamara fires back at Michael Thomas critics after latest injury update John Sigler November 5, 2022 4:13 pm CT Alvin Kamara has really come into his own this season as one of the leaders on the New Orleans Saints’ roster. Sure, he’s a five-time Pro Bowler and the face of their franchise, but 2022 was the first year in which he earned a captain’s patch on his uniform. And he’s shouldered that new responsibility well in demanding greater accountability in the locker room and defending his teammates from unfair criticism in speaking with the media. The Saints sent wide receiver Michael Thomas to injured reserve this week after resting him for five games, teeing him up for surgery on a dislocated toe that’s likely going to end his season. It’s led to troubling comments online questioning his commitment to the team and suggesting he’s tapped out after having signed a contract extension. Kamara acknowledged the frustration — this is the third year in a row Thomas has missed significant time with injury — but pushed back against the critics doubting his teammate’s motivation. “It’s a lot of ** we’ve got to go through,” Kamara told ESPN’s Katherine Terrell, pointing out that fans don’t see the long, painful hours in the trainer’s room working on injury rehab. He added, “A player like that, that’s fighting to get back, not only for his team, but for the fans and for this city … For people to be talking , it’s like, ah, it hurts my soul to see that.” Kamara said that Thomas was optimistic he’d be active for the Raiders game, having taken the team doctors’ advice to rest his injured toe and receive treatment. But the dislocated digit didn’t heal as everyone involved hoped that it would after a recent MRI scan, prompting a change of plans. Thomas is still following doctor’s orders.** It’s not like he’s gone rogue again and stopped talking to the team for months. He’s as frustrated as anyone, which Kamara has seen firsthand. More from his conversation with Terrell: “Nobody’s in here like ‘Let me get injured and not play and just get paid.’ We get paid to play obviously and we want to be available but when you can’t do it, there’s certain things you’ve got to be smart about.” What’s next for Thomas is anyone’s guess. Things can’t continue as they have considering his contract status. There’s a very real and unfortunate possibility that he’s already caught his last pass in a Saints uniform. But if things work out to where he continues to wear black and gold, Kamara has made it clear he’ll be one of the first teammates to welcome Thomas to their locker room. rezburna likes this.
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

11-05-2022, 08:41 PM	#68
frydaddy 1000 Posts + Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Lafayette Posts: 1,950 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Michael Thomas to IR Oh boy, the dip**** crawled back out of his hole. Can't believe we've lost so many longtime members lately, but we're still stuck with this clown.

11-05-2022, 08:51 PM	#69
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,220	Re: Michael Thomas to IR Originally Posted by frydaddy Oh boy, the dip**** crawled back out of his hole. Can't believe we've lost so many longtime members lately, but we're still stuck with this clown. My "hole" was a Havana Suite on the Carnival Vista out of Galveston for the past week, thank you very much. Assuming, of course, it was I to whom you were referring. What "hole" have you been in for the past few months? Missed you!

11-06-2022, 09:32 AM	#70
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,773	Re: Michael Thomas to IR Originally Posted by BakoSaint All the signing bonus and money converted to bonus in restructures that we have already given to Michael Thomas is a sunk cost. Converting the $15.5 million to guarantee money via a prorated bonus in a restructure would be a bad move, because no sane franchise would offer $15.5 million for one year to a player who has missed 40 of their last 50 games even if he has the level of talent that an RG3, Victor Cruz, Chad Pennington, Julius Thomas, Terrell Davis, Todd Gurley, Al Toon, Sterling Sharpe, Bo Jackson, OBJ, etc had early in their careers. I think you missed my point. Restructure/extend is off the table for all the reasons that you've already outlined. I was talking about a straight pay cut where Thomas isn't paid the money period. As you point out all the bonuses are sunk cost and will count against the cap no matter what (play,trade, or cut). However, if the Saints want to keep the player, then the $15.5 million isn't guaranteed. So, it can be negotiated. What I'm asking is if the Saints offered to keep MT13 in 2023 and only pay him $4 million for example, would that be worth the risk? No extension. No restructure. Just a straight $11 million pay cut? I think a fair salary reduction for Michael Thomas for 2023 would be between $5-10 million on a prove it deal. Maybe $2 million of it could be guaranteed, a small bonus for agreeing to restructure. The exact amount would depend on a physical and how his recovery is looking. Guaranteeing him $14 million by restructuring most of his 2023 salary to a prorated bonus would save a few bucks in the short term but be a horrible gamble in the long term. There is a small 250k roster bonus due to Thomas in March 2023 but whether or not we pay that is not a big deal since its small money. If Thomas will not to take a pay cut, we can hold onto him until the season is about to start and then cut him them if he is not looking incredibly healthy and dominating preseason. The contract he would get as a late cut next summer coming off 3 years of injury would certainly not be $15.5 million. Therefore, he would have to consider taking the pay cut rather than testing the market with his injury history. The only problem with this approach is that the Saints would have to carry the entire $28 million 2023 cap hit for the entire offseason process. That will hamstring the team badly in their other offseason endeavors. The Saints and MT13 need to figure this out in February. If MT13 and his representation won't agree to the salary reduction, the Saints should simply designate him a June 1 cut and let him go, carrying the $11 million sunk cost in 2023 and I believe the remaining $16 million in $2024. Lots of fans have been barking about MT13's commitment to the team. How this resolution comes out will be the demonstration, or lack thereof, of that commitment. There is the argument though that we should just designate him a post June 1 cut if we don't see ourselves as a Super Bowl contender in 2023 after numerous tough salary cap cuts, possibly losing Dalton or having to overpay him, possibly no 1st round pick if there is not a bidding war for Payton, etc. Thomas has a void year in 2025 anyway. If he somehow recovered in 2023 which I think is less than a 10% chance historically, he still is not a great long term bet to still be good in 2025 or 2026 if we are rebuilding, and even if he was he is a free agent in 2025 anyway. High risk - high reward lottery ticket expenses on injured but talented veterans are sometimes a good play for a team that is right there on the edge of winning it all and needs one more star to win but doesn't have the cap money or picks to pay full price for that star, so they buy a fractional chance of a star at a fraction of the price. See Rams last year with OBJ. But we don't have Matt Stafford. We don't have Aaron Donald. I am not sure the OBJ type gamble makes sense for us, so maybe we just take our cap medicine and rebuild if he would take a big reduction. I'm in agreement with this. If MT13 isn't willing to cut salary to match production and recent injury history, then letting him go is really the Saints' only option. I just keep posting items like this because there's a contingent of fans on the boards who thinks he can just come back next year with no consequence or changes to the contract. But in short, no pay cut, no MT13 in 2023. SFIAH
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.