Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

The way it has been or was structured under SP with Loomis at the helm seemed to work. Khai Forbath has been rumored to be moving upward, if not with the Saints, with other opportunities. If he truly is the numbers guy everyone says he is, why are we in a situation as we are? Is he worth his position? Should we move him up in our organization? Is it time to promote Ireland to GM and have Loomis step back a bit in the Saints organization and maybe have him concentrate more on the Pelicans? Maybe that's what's he's doing and our results are now self-evident. :confused:

:bng:

Re: Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

Yes yes yes. We need a football guy with patience not a numbers guy who specializes in mortgaging the future to a greater extent than others can fathom.

Re: Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

He doesn't make personnel decisions and his main job is to push money around. I thought that was going to end with Payton. A lot of folks were already sketchy with promoting Allen and then we decided to put another hat on him which he wasn't qualified for. That's on Loomis.

I really do appreciate the run and the success we've had during his tenure. With that said, and I've said it a few times, it starts at the top. He's a glorified accountant that's replaceable. If I was running a shady hedge fund, Loomis would be my first call. The fact we're continually in cap hell year after year makes you wonder... MAN YOU HAVE ONE FRICKING JOB?! I'd love for us to get a head start and knowing what we have to work with going into an offseason. We start off from behind right off the jump.

Yes I know how some of you guys feel about Allen. There's plenty of blame to go around. However I'd prefer to get to the root of the issue first and go down from there. Am I overracting to a down year? I don't think so IMO. I've been on record while Payton was here saying we've been a stagnant team for quite some time. We were. Change can be good for every one. Look at Andy Reid's situation back in Philly and how both teams are incredibly successful now.

With all this said, I don't think it's too late for Loomis to redeem himself. We have franchise changing type decision looming this off season. I'm willing to step back on the bus if he doesn't screw that up. But as of right now, I do not feel good about him making that decision. And if it's Allen making the decision, :censored:. What do we need Loomis for again?

Re: Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

I don't understand why some are always thinking the Saints are in "cap hell". Every year they have plenty of cap available. The difference is in how the cap is accounted. Contracts are constructed to hold available cap in the form of base salary and annual bonuses such as roster and workout bonuses. All of these can be easily converted to free cap if and when needed. This is the growing trend in the NFL due to the ever increasing cap. It just makes sense to account for current expenditures in future periods when the amount is a smaller percentage of the overall cap.

When Khai Harley moves on from his position with the Saints it will be to install this same financial system with the acquiring franchise. Before long this is going to be the standard method of maintaining the cap across the entire league.

Re: Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

Because we are in "cap hell" until we aren't. We shouldn't have to play catch up year after year. I'm well aware of the trend and the fact that other teams do it. I've noted that in the past. Are you going to ignore the other half of that statement? Loomis isn't the only one that's capable of doing this. We can certainly hire a bonafide GM who can make personnel decisions while getting a damn good accountant too. The point is Allen shouldn't be wearing two hats... 3 hats if he's in charge of the defense as well.

Re: Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

If that were true then CGJ and/or Williams would still be on the team.

Re: Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

The root of the issue with CGJ not being here was money. Money we didn't have to give him which IMO, he certainly earned. Loomis failed with getting a contract done and Allen failed getting a bag of balls for the trade. Why in the flying F do we have Allen in position of making trades? That makes Loomis a fail on both accounts regarding CGJ.

Re: Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

They should be based on how these moves played out...:bng:

I still recall just how deflated Cameron Jordan was after the CGJ announcement.

Re: Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

Yeah, I felt really good going into game 1 until that trade happened. I (we) can only guess as to what happened and why we got so apparently little. On the surface it seems like a bad deal for the Saints. But I doubt we will know what happened in truth. CGJ is an emotional player and personality. Could be after negotiations broke down CGJ said “trade me to Philly. If you trade me anywhere else I’ll be a problem for my new team. If you don’t trade me I’ll be a problem for yours”. So the Saints decided to get what they could. Could be there were teams offering more than what Philly was and the front office/DA was dumb enough to take Philly’s offer anyway. Somehow I doubt that was the case.

Regardless, how much cap space they had certainly made a difference.

Re: Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

Teams let players go every year based upon salary and other concerns. While Williams might have been salary related, I believe that Gardner-Johnson, right or wrong, was moved due to being disruptive (refusing to practice and such). As for Williams, they had the ability to pay him more and even whatever he wanted, but, right or wrong, they probably believed he wasn't worth it. The same thing with Terron Armstead, but part of his departure may have been their disappointment with his availability.

It's too easy for fans to blame things on the cap when other factors exist. Ever since the advent of free agency players have been allowed to leave teams. Not having the funds to be able to pay them is seldom the reason.

Re: Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

They had and still have the money to give him if they wanted. They made a decision to get rid of him and do not doubt the trouble he was causing throughout the preseason was more of a factor than the contract demands.

Re: Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

Don't forget they had a ton of cap space that they had cleared for the run after Deshaun Watson.

C.J. Gardner-Johnson’s behavior towards Saints coaches reportedly paved way for trade

Scott Rogust - Aug 30

The New Orleans Saints trading defensive back C.J. Gardner Johnson to the Philadelphia Eagles shocked many. But according to one report, it was bound to happen.

On Aug. 30, the day of the NFL's roster cutdown deadline, the New Orleans Saints made a rather shocking decision. They decided to trade safety C.J. Gardner-Johnson and a 2025 seventh-round pick to the Philadelphia Eagles in exchange for a 2023 fifth-round pick and a 2024 sixth-round pick. The move made Philadelphia's active offseason that much better. But why would the Saints trade away their talented defensive back?

According to New Orleans Football's Nick Underhill (subscription required), the Saints let it be known that they were not going to re-sign Gardner-Johnson "on his terms." Not only that, but Underhill reports that Gardner-Johnson "stopped taking coaching."

Re: Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

I'm having mixed feelings and trying to remember the particulars of Sean Payton's hiring. If Loomis was hired as GM and was the main guy responsible for interviewing and hiring Payton, who was a huge success, maybe we should give him a chance to find the next successful Saints head coach from the outside. But if his decision is to plod along with Allen and most of the current staff into next season and we ain't looking much better in January, that is where I'd start to roll my eyes and really feel we need a new GM as well.

My patience though with Loomis is growing thin, because if we are losing a lot of games paying for all those trade-ups in the draft and the dead-money cap limitations really start to hit home and lead me to believe we need a different financial approach to roster building.

Re: Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

The way that Kai Harley has set up our salary cap has given us a lot of extra money to use on acquiring players. Last year we had an extra 25.7 million dollars to spend because of our financial structuring. I like Loomis, but he really is just being counter and does not have the qualifications for personnel to be a GM. And Jeff Island failed miserably his last go round so I don't think he's an option. He's good at what he does now though!

Re: Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

Key word.

All that money was soon spoken for.

Had that money been allocated to Johnson, none of those issues would have arose.

Re: Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

I think CGJ leads the NFL in int's right now, 6 i think, to hand him over for a bag of balls like papz said, lunacy.

Re: Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

Spin it how u want but very few teams let go of or trade poorly like a talent CJG was, that dude was just a plain stud. And being disruptive was them not giving him the money on a new contract. That's because of cap he!! we're in.MONEY!!

Re: Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

But we aren't in cap hell. And we have the money. For whatever reason (ie. his refusing to take coaching, demanding more than they felt he was worth) he's gone and at least they got something for him in exchange.

Re: Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

Guido is delusional

Re: Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

I thought we made an offer to Marcus Williams and he just chose to walk.

Re: Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

We did. He wanted more than we wanted to pay. That happens all the time. We could have paid what he wanted but, right or wrong, they must have felt he wasn't worth it.

Re: Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

No. All that money was not spoken for. Not delusional at all. The facts are that Gardner-Johnson was still under contract for 2022 under his original 4 year deal he signed with the Saints. We had, and still have plenty of 2023 cap available to make any number of deals, including an extension for him. He was wanting a new contract for more than we were willing to pay. But he refused to practice under his current contract and refused to do as the coaches asked under his current contract. They finally decided to trade him the final day before final cuts to 53. They could have just cut him and got nothing in return.

Re: Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

Mickey Loomis thinks he is a better accountant than Smith Barney and Charles Schwab combined and Dennis Allen thinks the Vince Lombardi award should be named after him so when CGJ didn't return a phone call or wish them a happy birthday when he was holding out but still hitting the weight room, their egos freaked out and they tossed him to the curb for peanuts. Every team in every sports league in the world since the beginning of time immemorial has had players hold out. Remember when the Cowboys traded Zeke for a 5th. Or when Wilson made some noise about not being allowed to cook, the Seahawks got a 5th for him right? Deebo Samuel: 5th? The thing is, every other team in the league has either a GM who knows football or a coach with some ability to lead, so they kind of realize that holdouts happen and tend to pass. But we have dumb and dumber who the first sign of a holdout they got to send their pants to the dry cleaner and trade a young star who is under contract for a 5th.

With Marcus Williams we could have offered more if we had more to offer. We also could have franchise tagged him again but we probably didn't have the cash.

The way we managed the cap, we lost Terron Armstead and Marcus Williams this year. We didn't get any free agent to replace Armstead we mortgaged our draft future to get an unproven raw replacement. And we replaced Williams with a bargain basement washed older player and convict with disciplinary issues. And last year we lost a lot of players too. We lost Hendrickson for nothing. We lost Sanders and Cook who were not great, given, but they left us with giant holes at WR and TE and we did not have cash to sign replacements at similar salary, we went with Trout Man and Train Wreck who were cheap and talentless. The future of how Loomis manages our cap is we lose about 2 key players every year and replace them with bargain bin injury and suspension rejects or whatever few draft picks we dont trade away. It does not get better. It gets worse every year until we hit reset. Our competitiveness now is an illusion, but clinging to that illusion and not resetting will prevent us from ever gaining competitiveness again.

Re: Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

Ravens gave him 32mil guaranteed

Re: Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

Re: Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

Baltimore offered him a lot more because they had the cap space to do so.

Re: Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

Where's this money you're talking about?

We signed Maye, re-signed Winston, Mathieu, and Landry. All of this was done by the middle of May. CGJ saw all of this and wanted to get his being that he's under the last year of his rookie contract. Players re-negoiate all the time coming into the last year of their contract. Ideally you want to lock up players that important to your team prior to them hitting free agency. He took it as a slap in the face and started acting out. That could have been avoided completely. We let two young, damn good football players leave for practically nothing. At least one had to be re-signed and we dropped the ball because of what? Money we didn't have. We're scrambling at the beginning of every off season manipulating contracts to find more cap space. Like I said and how you completely ignore how it would be more advantageous, to start an off season for once, ahead of the curve and not behind. The strategy makes more sense for a team ready to compete for a championship.

We currently have a little less than 3 million in cap space. You actually think that's enough to give him a serious offer? And no, we did not have to trade him. We could have put him on the roster and waited for a better deal as well.

Take of those rose colored glasses and try being realistic for once.

Re: Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

LOL. We are talking about Guido here papz.

Re: Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

You are missing the point that the 2022 cap has nothing to do with the contract demands of Gardner-Johnson. He was already under contract for 2022, the final year of his original 4 year contract. He was refusing to practice while wanting a new 2023 contract. We have about $100 million in convertible cap available for 2023 in base salaries and bonuses. Money was not a problem. Philly is paying him his final year salary per his original contract. He hasn't received an additional penny yet. He is still on the same contract.

A second scenario: Let's say CGJ was indeed wanting to redo his final year as part of an extension which I believe you are trying to suggest. He was already on the books for a $2.7 million salary for 2022. They could have actually saved 2022 cap by redoing his final year by converting that $2.7 million into a signing bonus and spreading it over the term of his new deal. Let's say four years. That would make his 2022 base a little over $500K freeing up over $2 million in 2022 cap. They could have then made his 2023-26 salaries whatever was required not affecting the 2022 cap.

That's where the money is. The money was there. He was traded because he refused to practice and wouldn't work with the coaches. Pure and simple.

Re: Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

Black and gold colored. ;)

:bng:

Re: Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

Rumor has it... and probably started by guido.... regardless. Rumor has it, guido has a brain :rofl:

Re: Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

Re: Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

CGJ leads the league in interceptions with 6.

Really uncoachable...

Re: Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

Re: Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

Nobody said he was "uncoachable". They said he refused coaching along with refusing to practice. Big difference. Don't get me wrong, I wish we still had him. But I also understand why they were forced to cut ties with the final cuts to the 53 man roster hours away.

Re: Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

Refusing to be coached by the morons we have leading the show, I don't really blame him.

Re: Is it time to shake up upper management?
 

How did they suddenly become morons? They're the same ones we've had for several years. :confused: