Who would Payton Bring With Him?

TheOak · 12-01-2022, 05:46 AM

A little critical thought here...

Why would Sean recreate what he left?

Why do you think Sean left if you think he is going to bring what he had with him?

Assuming he didn't retire because of Gayle or Mickey then whats left is, he either retired from the hole he made or wanted to start something new... Neither would be favorable for taking Saints staff.

I would also add, going back what a poorly designed organization looks like, and that is one where the Head Coaches contract doesn't have a 'no poaching' clause that covers at least a year after his or the candidate coaches separation.

MatthewT · 12-01-2022, 07:18 AM

Originally Posted by TheOak

A little critical thought here...

Why would Sean recreate what he left?

Why do you think Sean left if you think he is going to bring what he had with him?

Assuming he didn't retire because of Gayle or Mickey then whats left is, he either retired from the hole he made or wanted to start something new... Neither would be favorable for taking Saints staff.

I would also add, going back what a poorly designed organization looks like, and that is one where the Head Coaches contract doesn't have a 'no poaching' clause that covers at least a year after his or the candidate coaches separation.

I think Sean left for several reasons, I will speculate that one of those reasons is roster issues and not issues with his coaches. There are glaring holes that need to be addressed, and no easy way of filling a lot of these. I think this year is a perfect example, the Saints probably had a great opportunity to unload a few veterans before the trade deadline, and if I am interpreting the salary cap correctly they couldn't have done it even if they wanted to. So from what I gather, the Saints have limited short term draft capital, a salary cap situation that is still very bad and will likely take several more years to dig out of, an aging roster with players they are stuck with, and no franchise QB anywhere to be found.

AsylumGuido · 12-01-2022, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by TheOak

A little critical thought here...

Why would Sean recreate what he left?

Why do you think Sean left if you think he is going to bring what he had with him?

Assuming he didn't retire because of Gayle or Mickey then whats left is, he either retired from the hole he made or wanted to start something new... Neither would be favorable for taking Saints staff.

I would also add, going back what a poorly designed organization looks like, and that is one where the Head Coaches contract doesn't have a 'no poaching' clause that covers at least a year after his or the candidate coaches separation.

I believe Payton left for one reason and one reason only that he shared with one of his very best friends, Jay Glazer, a year earlier through his actions. According to Glazer, Payton was simply burned out and wanted a break from coaching altogether. He didn't leave to get away from the Saints. He left to get away from coaching in general for a time. During the offseason prior to the 2021 season, according to Glazer, Payton seemed to have lost the usually fire that he had always seen. Perhaps the pressures of the first year of the COVID pandemic was having a toll. Regardless, Glazer said he knew that Payton was seriously considering at least a temporary retirement following that season.

TheOak · 12-01-2022, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

I believe Payton left for one reason and one reason only that he shared with one of his very best friends, Jay Glazer, a year earlier through his actions. According to Glazer, Payton was simply burned out and wanted a break from coaching altogether. He didn't leave to get away from the Saints. He left to get away from coaching in general for a time. During the offseason prior to the 2021 season, according to Glazer, Payton seemed to have lost the usually fire that he had always seen. Perhaps the pressures of the first year of the COVID pandemic was having a toll. Regardless, Glazer said he knew that Payton was seriously considering at least a temporary retirement following that season.

Then he is back coaching the Saints next year.

AsylumGuido · 12-01-2022, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by TheOak

Then he is back coaching the Saints next year.

I doubt it, but it's possible if Allen is let go. I'm not sure Payton returns yet to anyone. He's making top head coaching pay right now while working a fraction of the hours. I haven't seen him looking more relaxed in years.

TheOak · 12-02-2022, 07:01 AM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

I doubt it, but it's possible if Allen is let go. I'm not sure Payton returns yet to anyone. He's making top head coaching pay right now while working a fraction of the hours. I haven't seen him looking more relaxed in years.

You doubt it? lol That's the only conclusion from your 'insider info'.

Why does Dennis Allen need to go? 2023 you have both Dennis Allen and Sean Payton on payroll. Its a no brainer that Sean is HC, he is the only person on payroll that resembles a head coach.

You do realize that while you are the only one that looks at your app, the rest of the world can see twitter and are privy to your insider info?

AsylumGuido · 12-02-2022, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by TheOak

You doubt it? lol That's the only conclusion from your 'insider info'.

Why does Dennis Allen need to go? 2023 you have both Dennis Allen and Sean Payton on payroll. Its a no brainer that Sean is HC, he is the only person on payroll that resembles a head coach.

You do realize that while you are the only one that looks at your app, the rest of the world can see twitter and are privy to your insider info?

I meant Allen gone as in head coach this coming season. That doesn't mean off the staff if that's how they would prefer to work it. But, what I doubt is the Saints moving on from Allen as head coach at all this coming season and I doubt Payton will return to the Saints in 2023.

And when have I ever claimed anything gleaned from Twitter as being 'insider info'? I usually post anything I come across on Twitter here in the form of the original posting, or haven't you gathered that by now.

Rugby Saint II · 12-02-2022, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

I believe Payton left for one reason and one reason only that he shared with one of his very best friends, Jay Glazer, a year earlier through his actions. According to Glazer, Payton was simply burned out and wanted a break from coaching altogether. He didn't leave to get away from the Saints. He left to get away from coaching in general for a time. During the offseason prior to the 2021 season, according to Glazer, Payton seemed to have lost the usually fire that he had always seen. Perhaps the pressures of the first year of the COVID pandemic was having a toll. Regardless, Glazer said he knew that Payton was seriously considering at least a temporary retirement following that season.

I'm in full agreement Guido. He didn't leave because the system was wrong for him. He left because he was tired of coaching against Roger Goodell and the referees! He needed time off to recharge his batteries and to come up with more clever ways to make Roger Goodell look like the inept money loving bully that he is.

Honestly, Sean Payton was burned out and exhausted from having to overcome all the challenges of the injuries and the never ending negativity from the supposed Bounty gate. Which, of course was total BS.

AsylumGuido · 12-01-2022, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by MatthewT

I think Sean left for several reasons, I will speculate that one of those reasons is roster issues and not issues with his coaches. There are glaring holes that need to be addressed, and no easy way of filling a lot of these. I think this year is a perfect example, the Saints probably had a great opportunity to unload a few veterans before the trade deadline, and if I am interpreting the salary cap correctly they couldn't have done it even if they wanted to. So from what I gather, the Saints have limited short term draft capital, a salary cap situation that is still very bad and will likely take several more years to dig out of, an aging roster with players they are stuck with, and no franchise QB anywhere to be found.

The Saint have six picks in the upcoming draft, only one fewer than the norm. They also have close to $120 million in convertible cap that they intentionally built into their existing contracts via base salaries and roster/workout bonuses. They have no plan to "dig out" of anything. The whole financial strategy involves transference of current costs into future years where those costs make up a smaller percentage of the ever expanding cap. There are some good interviews out there with Khai Harley, the architect of the plan. That strategy can't change as long as either Loomis and/or Harley are still with the Saints and could very well continue after they leave as more and more teams are moving toward this model.

MatthewT · 12-01-2022, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

The Saint have six picks in the upcoming draft, only one fewer than the norm. They also have close to $120 million in convertible cap that they intentionally built into their existing contracts via base salaries and roster/workout bonuses. They have no plan to "dig out" of anything. The whole financial strategy involves transference of current costs into future years where those costs make up a smaller percentage of the ever expanding cap. There are some good interviews out there with Khai Harley, the architect of the plan. That strategy can't change as long as either Loomis and/or Harley are still with the Saints and could very well continue after they leave as more and more teams are moving toward this model.

Sure, the Saints do indeed have six picks in the upcoming draft, missing is the big one.

I get the strategy Loomis and Harley is using, and have seen the interviews too. The flaw as I see it is being committed to a player way after their prime. At some point the cap does need to be cleaned up to avoid this, and/or to make another run at a championship. Michael Thomas may be a great example of what I am talking about. If the Saints wanted to move on from him for any reason, it looks like 2023 is the very first opportunity to do so. It appears if they would have tried to move on from him sooner that it would have created an issue of having to clear even more cap space to move him. The same appears true for guys like Cam Jordan, Andrus Peat, Alvin Kamara, and several others. I am not trying to say the Saints were looking to move on from any of them, but if there is a need to move on they simply could not do it. I do agree with your point that several other teams may or will start using this approach to the cap, but it needs to be used with extreme caution or it could easily sink a franchise.

12-01-2022, 05:46 AM	#1
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,047	Re: Who would Payton Bring With Him? A little critical thought here... Why would Sean recreate what he left? Why do you think Sean left if you think he is going to bring what he had with him? Assuming he didn't retire because of Gayle or Mickey then whats left is, he either retired from the hole he made or wanted to start something new... Neither would be favorable for taking Saints staff. I would also add, going back what a poorly designed organization looks like, and that is one where the Head Coaches contract doesn't have a 'no poaching' clause that covers at least a year after his or the candidate coaches separation. MatthewT and Rugby Saint II like this.
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

12-01-2022, 07:18 AM	#2
MatthewT 1000 Posts + Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Mississippi Posts: 2,729	Re: Who would Payton Bring With Him? Originally Posted by TheOak A little critical thought here... Why would Sean recreate what he left? Why do you think Sean left if you think he is going to bring what he had with him? Assuming he didn't retire because of Gayle or Mickey then whats left is, he either retired from the hole he made or wanted to start something new... Neither would be favorable for taking Saints staff. I would also add, going back what a poorly designed organization looks like, and that is one where the Head Coaches contract doesn't have a 'no poaching' clause that covers at least a year after his or the candidate coaches separation. I think Sean left for several reasons, I will speculate that one of those reasons is roster issues and not issues with his coaches. There are glaring holes that need to be addressed, and no easy way of filling a lot of these. I think this year is a perfect example, the Saints probably had a great opportunity to unload a few veterans before the trade deadline, and if I am interpreting the salary cap correctly they couldn't have done it even if they wanted to. So from what I gather, the Saints have limited short term draft capital, a salary cap situation that is still very bad and will likely take several more years to dig out of, an aging roster with players they are stuck with, and no franchise QB anywhere to be found. Rugby Saint II likes this.

12-01-2022, 09:21 AM	#3
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,622	Re: Who would Payton Bring With Him? Originally Posted by TheOak A little critical thought here... Why would Sean recreate what he left? Why do you think Sean left if you think he is going to bring what he had with him? Assuming he didn't retire because of Gayle or Mickey then whats left is, he either retired from the hole he made or wanted to start something new... Neither would be favorable for taking Saints staff. I would also add, going back what a poorly designed organization looks like, and that is one where the Head Coaches contract doesn't have a 'no poaching' clause that covers at least a year after his or the candidate coaches separation. I believe Payton left for one reason and one reason only that he shared with one of his very best friends, Jay Glazer, a year earlier through his actions. According to Glazer, Payton was simply burned out and wanted a break from coaching altogether. He didn't leave to get away from the Saints. He left to get away from coaching in general for a time. During the offseason prior to the 2021 season, according to Glazer, Payton seemed to have lost the usually fire that he had always seen. Perhaps the pressures of the first year of the COVID pandemic was having a toll. Regardless, Glazer said he knew that Payton was seriously considering at least a temporary retirement following that season. Rugby Saint II likes this.
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

12-01-2022, 10:04 AM	#4
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,047	Re: Who would Payton Bring With Him? Originally Posted by AsylumGuido I believe Payton left for one reason and one reason only that he shared with one of his very best friends, Jay Glazer, a year earlier through his actions. According to Glazer, Payton was simply burned out and wanted a break from coaching altogether. He didn't leave to get away from the Saints. He left to get away from coaching in general for a time. During the offseason prior to the 2021 season, according to Glazer, Payton seemed to have lost the usually fire that he had always seen. Perhaps the pressures of the first year of the COVID pandemic was having a toll. Regardless, Glazer said he knew that Payton was seriously considering at least a temporary retirement following that season. Then he is back coaching the Saints next year. MatthewT and Boston Saint like this.

12-01-2022, 11:58 AM	#5
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,622	Re: Who would Payton Bring With Him? Originally Posted by TheOak Then he is back coaching the Saints next year. I doubt it, but it's possible if Allen is let go. I'm not sure Payton returns yet to anyone. He's making top head coaching pay right now while working a fraction of the hours. I haven't seen him looking more relaxed in years.

12-02-2022, 07:01 AM	#6
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,047	Re: Who would Payton Bring With Him? Originally Posted by AsylumGuido I doubt it, but it's possible if Allen is let go. I'm not sure Payton returns yet to anyone. He's making top head coaching pay right now while working a fraction of the hours. I haven't seen him looking more relaxed in years. You doubt it? lol That's the only conclusion from your 'insider info'. Why does Dennis Allen need to go? 2023 you have both Dennis Allen and Sean Payton on payroll. Its a no brainer that Sean is HC, he is the only person on payroll that resembles a head coach. You do realize that while you are the only one that looks at your app, the rest of the world can see twitter and are privy to your insider info?

12-02-2022, 09:01 AM	#7
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,622	Re: Who would Payton Bring With Him? Originally Posted by TheOak You doubt it? lol That's the only conclusion from your 'insider info'. Why does Dennis Allen need to go? 2023 you have both Dennis Allen and Sean Payton on payroll. Its a no brainer that Sean is HC, he is the only person on payroll that resembles a head coach. You do realize that while you are the only one that looks at your app, the rest of the world can see twitter and are privy to your insider info? I meant Allen gone as in head coach this coming season. That doesn't mean off the staff if that's how they would prefer to work it. But, what I doubt is the Saints moving on from Allen as head coach at all this coming season and I doubt Payton will return to the Saints in 2023. And when have I ever claimed anything gleaned from Twitter as being 'insider info'? I usually post anything I come across on Twitter here in the form of the original posting, or haven't you gathered that by now.

12-02-2022, 10:37 AM	#8
Rugby Saint II Bounty Money $$$ Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 5800 Airline Dr. Metairie, LA. Posts: 24,153	Re: Who would Payton Bring With Him? Originally Posted by AsylumGuido I believe Payton left for one reason and one reason only that he shared with one of his very best friends, Jay Glazer, a year earlier through his actions. According to Glazer, Payton was simply burned out and wanted a break from coaching altogether. He didn't leave to get away from the Saints. He left to get away from coaching in general for a time. During the offseason prior to the 2021 season, according to Glazer, Payton seemed to have lost the usually fire that he had always seen. Perhaps the pressures of the first year of the COVID pandemic was having a toll. Regardless, Glazer said he knew that Payton was seriously considering at least a temporary retirement following that season. I'm in full agreement Guido. He didn't leave because the system was wrong for him. He left because he was tired of coaching against Roger Goodell and the referees! He needed time off to recharge his batteries and to come up with more clever ways to make Roger Goodell look like the inept money loving bully that he is. Honestly, Sean Payton was burned out and exhausted from having to overcome all the challenges of the injuries and the never ending negativity from the supposed Bounty gate. Which, of course was total BS.

12-01-2022, 09:30 AM	#9
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,622	Re: Who would Payton Bring With Him? Originally Posted by MatthewT I think Sean left for several reasons, I will speculate that one of those reasons is roster issues and not issues with his coaches. There are glaring holes that need to be addressed, and no easy way of filling a lot of these. I think this year is a perfect example, the Saints probably had a great opportunity to unload a few veterans before the trade deadline, and if I am interpreting the salary cap correctly they couldn't have done it even if they wanted to. So from what I gather, the Saints have limited short term draft capital, a salary cap situation that is still very bad and will likely take several more years to dig out of, an aging roster with players they are stuck with, and no franchise QB anywhere to be found. The Saint have six picks in the upcoming draft, only one fewer than the norm. They also have close to $120 million in convertible cap that they intentionally built into their existing contracts via base salaries and roster/workout bonuses. They have no plan to "dig out" of anything. The whole financial strategy involves transference of current costs into future years where those costs make up a smaller percentage of the ever expanding cap. There are some good interviews out there with Khai Harley, the architect of the plan. That strategy can't change as long as either Loomis and/or Harley are still with the Saints and could very well continue after they leave as more and more teams are moving toward this model.
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

12-01-2022, 10:14 AM	#10
MatthewT 1000 Posts + Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Mississippi Posts: 2,729	Re: Who would Payton Bring With Him? Originally Posted by AsylumGuido The Saint have six picks in the upcoming draft, only one fewer than the norm. They also have close to $120 million in convertible cap that they intentionally built into their existing contracts via base salaries and roster/workout bonuses. They have no plan to "dig out" of anything. The whole financial strategy involves transference of current costs into future years where those costs make up a smaller percentage of the ever expanding cap. There are some good interviews out there with Khai Harley, the architect of the plan. That strategy can't change as long as either Loomis and/or Harley are still with the Saints and could very well continue after they leave as more and more teams are moving toward this model. Sure, the Saints do indeed have six picks in the upcoming draft, missing is the big one. I get the strategy Loomis and Harley is using, and have seen the interviews too. The flaw as I see it is being committed to a player way after their prime. At some point the cap does need to be cleaned up to avoid this, and/or to make another run at a championship. Michael Thomas may be a great example of what I am talking about. If the Saints wanted to move on from him for any reason, it looks like 2023 is the very first opportunity to do so. It appears if they would have tried to move on from him sooner that it would have created an issue of having to clear even more cap space to move him. The same appears true for guys like Cam Jordan, Andrus Peat, Alvin Kamara, and several others. I am not trying to say the Saints were looking to move on from any of them, but if there is a need to move on they simply could not do it. I do agree with your point that several other teams may or will start using this approach to the cap, but it needs to be used with extreme caution or it could easily sink a franchise.