Kamara or Lattimore Trade

MatthewT · 12-15-2022, 06:56 AM

As much as many want the Saints to rebuild, it simply cannot be done. Let's assume the projected number of minus 50 mil in salary cap holds true for 2023. What you need to look at now is cap savings for a particular player or group of players. The way the Saints have most of their contracts structured, that cap savings number is going to be a negative or close to an even number. Example if you release a player with a 20 mil negative number, now you are negative 70 mil in the hole. If you release a player with a small gain, like 1 mil, then you are at minus 49 but you are also removing a contract that can be converted from salary to signing bonus, thus taking away a player that can help you gain positive cap space.

A larger scale example, let's pretend the Saints want to rebuild the team, and they are currently 50 million in cap debt. Let's assume Peat, Kamara, Lattimore, Jordan, Mathieu, Hill, Thomas, and Davis are all under contract and these would be the targeted players to release/trade to facilitate a true rebuild. Let's assume their cap savings for 2023 are all at 0 and now they are all removed from the roster. We are still looking at a 50 million cap debt, now where is that cap space going to coming from with no contracts left to convert? (To my knowledge no one on the Saints roster has a large positive cap savings number if released/traded)

The Saints situation, they are probably in a position in 2023 to move on from maybe 1 or 2 big contract guys at the most, likely having to use a post June 1st designation.

I am be no means an expert, just my interpretation of what I found through some research. If anyone wants to research this on their own, a good reference is https://overthecap.com/

AsylumGuido · 12-15-2022, 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by MatthewT

As much as many want the Saints to rebuild, it simply cannot be done. Let's assume the projected number of minus 50 mil in salary cap holds true for 2023. What you need to look at now is cap savings for a particular player or group of players. The way the Saints have most of their contracts structured, that cap savings number is going to be a negative or close to an even number. Example if you release a player with a 20 mil negative number, now you are negative 70 mil in the hole. If you release a player with a small gain, like 1 mil, then you are at minus 49 but you are also removing a contract that can be converted from salary to signing bonus, thus taking away a player that can help you gain positive cap space.

A larger scale example, let's pretend the Saints want to rebuild the team, and they are currently 50 million in cap debt. Let's assume Peat, Kamara, Lattimore, Jordan, Mathieu, Hill, Thomas, and Davis are all under contract and these would be the targeted players to release/trade to facilitate a true rebuild. Let's assume their cap savings for 2023 are all at 0 and now they are all removed from the roster. We are still looking at a 50 million cap debt, now where is that cap space going to coming from with no contracts left to convert? (To my knowledge no one on the Saints roster has a large positive cap savings number if released/traded)

The Saints situation, they are probably in a position in 2023 to move on from maybe 1 or 2 big contract guys at the most, likely having to use a post June 1st designation.

I am be no means an expert, just my interpretation of what I found through some research. If anyone wants to research this on their own, a good reference is https://overthecap.com/

You are correct. Another good source is Saints Spotrac.com

rezburna · 12-15-2022, 12:24 PM

I'd move Kamara before I moved Lattimore. The shelf life of a RB is short and they're plentiful. DB's are needed more and more in today's NFL. We really need Cam Jordan to retire and get some of that money off the books. I'd take the cap hit to move Peat and maybe even MT at this point.

K Major · 12-15-2022, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by rezburna

I'd move Kamara before I moved Lattimore. The shelf life of a RB is short and they're plentiful. DB's are needed more and more in today's NFL. We really need Cam Jordan to retire and get some of that money off the books. I'd take the cap hit to move Peat and maybe even MT at this point.

I've mentioned it a few times this year in game day chats, but AK's body language has been bad.

IMO the stoic look most of the year has been poor due to an ineffective offensive coordinator in Pete Carmichael. What in the hell happened to the screen passes to Alvin

?

I'm not certain what happens on black Monday, however, I do know Pete Carmichael will be a ghost in New Orleans.

AsylumGuido · 12-15-2022, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by K Major

I've mentioned it a few times this year in game day chats, but AK's body language has been bad.

IMO the stoic look most of the year has been poor due to an ineffective offensive coordinator in Pete Carmichael. What in the hell happened to the screen passes to Alvin ?

I'm not certain what happens on black Monday, however, I do know Pete Carmichael will be a ghost in New Orleans.

I couldn't agree more.

AsylumGuido · 12-15-2022, 04:47 PM

halloween 65 · 12-16-2022, 06:26 AM

Originally Posted by rezburna

I'd move Kamara before I moved Lattimore. The shelf life of a RB is short and they're plentiful. DB's are needed more and more in today's NFL. We really need Cam Jordan to retire and get some of that money off the books. I'd take the cap hit to move Peat and maybe even MT at this point.

Jordan doesn't look like the Jordan of old. I don't know what we would net for him now but he still has some value.

SmashMouth · 12-17-2022, 08:55 AM

If SP was successful with his QB choices with Romo, Brees, etc, why was he unsuccessful subsequently other than backup QBs? What changed in his evaluations ?

TheOak · 12-17-2022, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by SmashMouth

If SP was successful with his QB choices with Romo, Brees, etc, why was he unsuccessful subsequently other than backup QBs? What changed in his evaluations ?

Drew was a chance happening and I’m betting, with his motor, he would have been successful wherever he went.

Romo didn’t start until 2006 (Sean was here). It’s worth noting that Romo went undrafted in spite of Peyton telling him how interested Dallas was. In 2003 he was 3rd on the depth chart, in 2004 he was nearly cut. Meaning that he would have not been Sean’s priority.

I’m going to go way out on a limb here and surmise that even though Sean Payton was a QB coach for a couple of teams and never for more than 2-3 years that he may be able to spot a needle in the haystack but has no talent directly attributed to his mentoring. Add to that a failure to develop a successor to Drew and the sh1t-show he left our QB unit in, we give him credit for being a lot better developer than he actually is.
I like him a lot as a coach but this is undeniable.

Rugby Saint II · 12-17-2022, 12:17 PM

Drew Brees was a number one draft pick who was just a little short and Tony Romo just needed someone to explain the game to him I believe. Maybe Sean Payton is a quarterback Guru. Maybe not. He was inefficient with mid and late round draft picks that had little to no value. Is that his fault?

12-15-2022, 06:56 AM	#1
MatthewT 1000 Posts + Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Mississippi Posts: 2,729	Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade As much as many want the Saints to rebuild, it simply cannot be done. Let's assume the projected number of minus 50 mil in salary cap holds true for 2023. What you need to look at now is cap savings for a particular player or group of players. The way the Saints have most of their contracts structured, that cap savings number is going to be a negative or close to an even number. Example if you release a player with a 20 mil negative number, now you are negative 70 mil in the hole. If you release a player with a small gain, like 1 mil, then you are at minus 49 but you are also removing a contract that can be converted from salary to signing bonus, thus taking away a player that can help you gain positive cap space. A larger scale example, let's pretend the Saints want to rebuild the team, and they are currently 50 million in cap debt. Let's assume Peat, Kamara, Lattimore, Jordan, Mathieu, Hill, Thomas, and Davis are all under contract and these would be the targeted players to release/trade to facilitate a true rebuild. Let's assume their cap savings for 2023 are all at 0 and now they are all removed from the roster. We are still looking at a 50 million cap debt, now where is that cap space going to coming from with no contracts left to convert? (To my knowledge no one on the Saints roster has a large positive cap savings number if released/traded) The Saints situation, they are probably in a position in 2023 to move on from maybe 1 or 2 big contract guys at the most, likely having to use a post June 1st designation. I am be no means an expert, just my interpretation of what I found through some research. If anyone wants to research this on their own, a good reference is https://overthecap.com/ iceshack149 and neugey like this.

12-15-2022, 08:49 AM	#2
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,701	Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade Originally Posted by MatthewT As much as many want the Saints to rebuild, it simply cannot be done. Let's assume the projected number of minus 50 mil in salary cap holds true for 2023. What you need to look at now is cap savings for a particular player or group of players. The way the Saints have most of their contracts structured, that cap savings number is going to be a negative or close to an even number. Example if you release a player with a 20 mil negative number, now you are negative 70 mil in the hole. If you release a player with a small gain, like 1 mil, then you are at minus 49 but you are also removing a contract that can be converted from salary to signing bonus, thus taking away a player that can help you gain positive cap space. A larger scale example, let's pretend the Saints want to rebuild the team, and they are currently 50 million in cap debt. Let's assume Peat, Kamara, Lattimore, Jordan, Mathieu, Hill, Thomas, and Davis are all under contract and these would be the targeted players to release/trade to facilitate a true rebuild. Let's assume their cap savings for 2023 are all at 0 and now they are all removed from the roster. We are still looking at a 50 million cap debt, now where is that cap space going to coming from with no contracts left to convert? (To my knowledge no one on the Saints roster has a large positive cap savings number if released/traded) The Saints situation, they are probably in a position in 2023 to move on from maybe 1 or 2 big contract guys at the most, likely having to use a post June 1st designation. I am be no means an expert, just my interpretation of what I found through some research. If anyone wants to research this on their own, a good reference is https://overthecap.com/ You are correct. Another good source is Saints Spotrac.com

12-15-2022, 12:24 PM	#3
rezburna 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Kenner, LA Posts: 8,114	Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade I'd move Kamara before I moved Lattimore. The shelf life of a RB is short and they're plentiful. DB's are needed more and more in today's NFL. We really need Cam Jordan to retire and get some of that money off the books. I'd take the cap hit to move Peat and maybe even MT at this point. MatthewT, halloween 65 and K Major like this.

12-15-2022, 03:50 PM	#4
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,840 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade Originally Posted by rezburna I'd move Kamara before I moved Lattimore. The shelf life of a RB is short and they're plentiful. DB's are needed more and more in today's NFL. We really need Cam Jordan to retire and get some of that money off the books. I'd take the cap hit to move Peat and maybe even MT at this point. I've mentioned it a few times this year in game day chats, but AK's body language has been bad. IMO the stoic look most of the year has been poor due to an ineffective offensive coordinator in Pete Carmichael. What in the hell happened to the screen passes to Alvin ? I'm not certain what happens on black Monday, however, I do know Pete Carmichael will be a ghost in New Orleans. leilung likes this.

12-15-2022, 03:53 PM	#5
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,701	Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade Originally Posted by K Major I've mentioned it a few times this year in game day chats, but AK's body language has been bad. IMO the stoic look most of the year has been poor due to an ineffective offensive coordinator in Pete Carmichael. What in the hell happened to the screen passes to Alvin ? I'm not certain what happens on black Monday, however, I do know Pete Carmichael will be a ghost in New Orleans. I couldn't agree more. Twitter

12-15-2022, 04:47 PM	#6
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,701	Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade Twitter

12-16-2022, 06:26 AM	#7
halloween 65 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Grand Haven, Michigan by way of a little Mississippi River town in Louisiana Posts: 5,893	Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade Originally Posted by rezburna I'd move Kamara before I moved Lattimore. The shelf life of a RB is short and they're plentiful. DB's are needed more and more in today's NFL. We really need Cam Jordan to retire and get some of that money off the books. I'd take the cap hit to move Peat and maybe even MT at this point. Jordan doesn't look like the Jordan of old. I don't know what we would net for him now but he still has some value.

12-17-2022, 08:55 AM	#8
SmashMouth I donated, did you? Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Mandeville, LA Posts: 38,961 Blog Entries: 29	Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade If SP was successful with his QB choices with Romo, Brees, etc, why was he unsuccessful subsequently other than backup QBs? What changed in his evaluations ?

12-17-2022, 12:01 PM	#9
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,051	Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade Originally Posted by SmashMouth If SP was successful with his QB choices with Romo, Brees, etc, why was he unsuccessful subsequently other than backup QBs? What changed in his evaluations ? Drew was a chance happening and I’m betting, with his motor, he would have been successful wherever he went. Romo didn’t start until 2006 (Sean was here). It’s worth noting that Romo went undrafted in spite of Peyton telling him how interested Dallas was. In 2003 he was 3rd on the depth chart, in 2004 he was nearly cut. Meaning that he would have not been Sean’s priority. I’m going to go way out on a limb here and surmise that even though Sean Payton was a QB coach for a couple of teams and never for more than 2-3 years that he may be able to spot a needle in the haystack but has no talent directly attributed to his mentoring. Add to that a failure to develop a successor to Drew and the sh1t-show he left our QB unit in, we give him credit for being a lot better developer than he actually is. I like him a lot as a coach but this is undeniable. SmashMouth and K Major like this.
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

12-17-2022, 12:17 PM	#10
Rugby Saint II Bounty Money $$$ Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 5800 Airline Dr. Metairie, LA. Posts: 24,179	Re: Kamara or Lattimore Trade Drew Brees was a number one draft pick who was just a little short and Tony Romo just needed someone to explain the game to him I believe. Maybe Sean Payton is a quarterback Guru. Maybe not. He was inefficient with mid and late round draft picks that had little to no value. Is that his fault?