Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

It’s painfully obvious our offensive line is a major liability even with our starting lineup relatively healthy. If we are to have any real shot at the playoffs or Carr reaching his full potential we need to find someone dominant and versatile to help keep him off his ass. Is there a player out there who would be an immediate difference maker worth trading for? How much would you be willing to compensate for such a player.

Carr can be the guy but he can also be a little ***** willing to point blame. He’s tough but is notorious for forcing the ball when he sees his protection breaking down. We saw it in week one with that dumb pick and again Monday when he threw way behind his receiver in the end zone.

It seems like this team is always a position group away from being outstanding. A couple years back it was WR. It’s happened with TE’s and running backs prior to that. It’s like they completely ignore one position group while loading others to compensate.
Our line was one of the best in the league for the better part of a decade, now we are bottom 5.

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

Not until the trade deadline which is October 31. There have been so many injuries to offensive linemen already that the demand will be huge and the availability minimal, if existent at all. I'll guarantee you that half the league, or more, would trade complete OL squads with us in a heartbeat.

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

Not really. And I might be in the minority but while the isn't best O-line in the league, I think it's sufficient and it's going to get better as the season progresses. The defensive lines for the Saints first two opponents are really good as well.

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

You aren't in the minority. At least among the informed.

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

No. It’s time to ride or die. We have 5 rd one picks

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

Edit wrong thread

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

We’re gonna lose. Trash.

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

Yikes.
Maybe it’s time the Saints see what Salvederi can do at guard.

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

Yea our line is coming together just fine.

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

Maybe we just need to have 5 players chip on every play to help all our oline. ...and someone needs to get open really quick.

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

I know Armstead was injury prone but I miss him terribly.

A lot of teams are really struggling with the play of their O-Line. Good O-Linemen are at a premium now. We have too much draft capital in our OL for them to perform like this 3 weeks into the season.

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

Doesn't a deadline mean that it's the last day? Can't we make a trade now?

I'm pointing a finger at Doug Marrone. We have athletes that can't block. Whose fault is that? I think it's on coaching.

That's funny. I feel informed.

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

+1.

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

Doug Marrone was our O-line coach when we had one of the best in the entire NFL (I think it was the Bushrod era, maybe Carl Nicks)

I think he's one of the better O-Line coaches in the league, or at least he used to be.

Maybe our guys just suck right now. I don't notice many missed assignments as much as I notice our guys getting freaking steamrolled.

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

It's his blocking schemes that aren't working. Zone concept? Help me out here Rez.

Also, It's not Douggie's fault that PC calls seven step drop backs. We just don't have time for the plays to develop before the pressure is on. Why aren't we calling more sweeps, screens, or short quick passes? Da might get a new OC next year. If we're lucky maybe the Saints will put him in the press box and have someone else call the shots. Something's gotta' give....and I don't mean Carr's shoulder. :roll:

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

I'm just a couch coach but former Bengal La'el Collins passed his physical today with Dr. Neal ElAttrache. I'd make a call.

FYI, this is the doctor who did the operation (Achilles) on Aaron Rodgers.

Ruiz is concussed, Hurst has played poorly, Landon Young isn't very good and Nick S isn't ready as a starter.

Again, what the hell do I know?

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

Not if there is no team willing to trade one of their most valuable players, Rugs. That's the point I'm trying to make. NOBODY is going to trade a starter quality offensive lineman until they know their season is totally over. That usually coincides with the trade deadline.

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

Its certainly worthwhile to give Collins a call. He has been above average at times, hurt and below average at others. He can play multiple positions. I think it is worth giving him a call. But don't give him a 4 year $50 million extension if he strings together a few good games, let him audition here and let someone else take that gamble if it works out and we will take the comp pick. There is no guarantee Collins is better than Hurst, Peat, Ruiz, or Penning but he creates competition and probably he is better than some of them.

Also, bring in someone to coach him who has done good work this decade.

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

But the thing is that each of our current starting offensive linemen beyond Penning have been very good, if not outstanding, at times over the past few years. Peat's issue has never been quality of play, it's mainly been ability to remain on the field. Ramczyk has been outstanding for most of his short career. McCoy has been better than just solid. Ruiz, after a slow start, was arguably our best offensive lineman last season.

Did they all just suddenly suck? I doubt that. As good as Marrone's reputation is (I was a huge proponent) could that be the issue?

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

Ruiz got paid so that is a difference. Some players slack off when they get paid, others step it up. It's certainly possible Ruiz slacked off. But which is which could depend on their coaches motivational skills in additional to their coaches skills as technicians with x's and o's, which could reflect on any or all of their coaches up the chain. Marrone is the easiest coach to switch out now.

Peat has been mediocre for a long time. Not the worst but not the best. But his constant injuries did not just tarnish his legend as a C grade oline, they also often kicked off musical chairs for other oline that affected all their development. They may also have effected his colleagues morale, seeing Peat take a bunch of days off, turn in lackluster pay, show up in mediocre shape, and take home the same or often more cash than the rest, with seemingly endless job security. Who wants to work late every day, maintain a strict diet, put in time in the weight room and tape room, etc if your most senior tenured colleagues get away with extending a late lunch through COB? Peats bad example and the lack of consequences could set the tone for the entire oline to decline once they get their cash. As Peat ages, the injuries and musical chairs are likely to kick into higher gear, and he play is likely to decline from mediocre to worse. But if he is still mediocre, perhaps instead of being the starter who kicks off musical chairs, he is better utilized as the backup who fills in at any position and prevents musical chairs, or fills in directly for the worst most struggling player and that player can shift to being the injury backup who prevents musical chairs. I dont think there is any scenario where a new coach makes Peat great unless he gets brainwashed into joining crossfit and going on a paleo diet or some bs like that, but we may have to use him somewhere.

McCoy and Ramcyzk have been great in the past. But oline is not a position where every player has a long career. Its hard to carry that weight and fight those battles on mere mortal knees, just likes its hard for a baseball pitcher to throw 100 fastballs on a mortal elbow. Some guys are great for a few years and break down, other guys are Nolan Ryan or Andrew Whitworth and last forever. La'el Collins was a legend early on, lately not so much. These two are not our worst problems now, but they are a bit off, and that could be father time, it could be having to pick up the slack for the bottom feeders around them, it could be Doug Marrone, or it could be Allen and Carmichael's shortcomings as leaders and motivators. Marrone is the easiest part to change right now. Carmichael wouldn't be the hardest.

Technically Hurst is a starting oline. I don't know that he has ever been great as a full season starter. But if we believe PFF he is not our weakest link, and he played better at LT last year than Penning is playing this year.

It's possible that in the past Payton served as the motivator for the offense and enlisted a group of technicians lacking leadership and motivational skills as his assistants, but was not a great motivator on the defense and deferred on that side of the ball to a bunch of lackluster coaches until he found Allen who could do the same for the defense. But perhaps Allen has the same problem and can be a leader and motivator for the defense but not for the offense, which is staffed with a bunch of technicians who lack leadership vision and motivational skill. In this case, bringing on Gruden could potentially improve the offense instantly, if Marrone and Carmichael's shortcomings are in the area of personality, leadership, and motivational skill not x's and o's.

It could also be that Marrone was a good oline coach but is stuck in his ways and the league has evolved. Could be the same for Gruden. But if many of these players were a lot better very recently, a better motivator is an obvious thing to try.

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

Get over the what they get paid ****, Bako. Christ. :rolleyes:

I'll guarantee you that most all of us, if not absolutely all of us, tune out to anything you post with that as the leading emphasis.

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

For an analogy with Ramcyzk and McCoy, Kyle Turley had 6 seasons to begin his career where he started 15-16 games and made an all pro team. After that, he played 14 games total the next 4 years. Carl Nicks had 4 healthy seasons and then horrible injuries. LeCharles Bentley had 4 healthy seasons and then horrible injuries. Jermon Bushrod was a regular starter for 6 seasons, made two pro bowls, got benched for half a year, converted to guard and managed to start a full season, then broke down and never played another full season. Other guys like Roaf, Armstead, and Evans lasted longer, but half of these pro bowl oline careers are short ones.

Ramcyzk is in year 7 as a full time starter. McCoy is in year 5. I don't care so much about age, I think at that position its more about how each unique player handles the wear and tear. We have to be financially prepared that its reasonably likely that one of them is starting to break down, though it could also be neither or both. It's not financially responsible to put ourselves in a position where there is no backup plan if they both don't last forever like a Roaf or Evans.

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

I think a player who has had strong seasons at both LG and RT could probably play RG or LT too. He has played both guard and tackle and he has played both left and right side, and he would have to learn a new scheme anyway, so adjusting the positional aspect might not be the end of the world when adjusting the scheme at the same time. At some point one or more of our starters will miss a string of games and we have to decide if we want Collins there or we want Young, Peat, etc. Collins does have the upside to become a solid starter again for a year or two if healthy.

But, we would have to look at the financial consequences of signing Collins too. It would depend a lot on how much money he would want. We are only $2.75 million under the cap, though perhaps there is some offsetting of pushing some lowest of 52 contract off the list if he would sign so perhaps we could give him $3.5 million or something. But that might greatly diminish our flexibility to do anything else.

We could give him a multi-year contract to spread the cost but that is very risky.

We could add a bunch of void years but that gets us in trouble for dead cap in 2024 if its a one year deal and he moves on and all that cash hits the cap.

We could try to restructure other contracts to make room, but after restructuring and extending Granderson and Ruiz, trading Lutz, and cutting Roby, we only have one contract left that has not been restructured for 2023 and includes a base salary of over about $1.5 million. That is James Hurst with a base salary of $3.5 million. James Hurst might be hesitant to restructure his contract to facilitate the signing of his possible direct replacement, given our investments in Penning and Ruiz. Hurst might also want an extension to restructure. An in season restructure is not like offseason, because in the offseason converting salary to a signing bonus means the player getting the money almost a year early, while Hurst is getting his cash weekly now that the season has started and its all guaranteed, and certain methods of pushing the money back would require him taking it later for more of it to apply against future caps, such as converting it to a guaranteed 2024 roster bonus, so logically he might want more money in order to take the cash later or agree to a restructure that doesn't give him any new guarantees or much cash acceleration. And if Hurst agrees and we add void years or a 2024 guaranteed roster bonus and cut him in the offseason, that hits 2024 dead cap.

Considering the financial consequences, if Collins would not come incredibly cheap, it might make sense to delay any potential move until we actually have a significant injury to a starter and then see who is available then. While many teams are close to the cap just like we are, few are also in the position of having essentially every contract already restructured and almost no ability to create new 2023 cap space.

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

Please make a thread for this crap. Pretty please. Every frickin' post from you is this same drivel.

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

It's a business. Ignoring the finances is just as bad as ignoring the score, the record, or the plays. I grew up in the salary cap era. Overthecap.com is like another box score. Watching the books and having opinions about the books is as much a part of following the game as watching the plays and having opinions about the plays. You can't just look at the final score and say you dont need to watch the game because you trust the experts. Likewise I can't just trust the experts on the cap. The experts can screw up. If math is intimidating for you I am sorry. But a major dimension of the game, the constraints of the salary cap that are just as important as what 11 men you put on the field, cannot be confined to one thread. You can't add oline help without paying for it. You can't give everyone extensions without consequences.

When there is a long discussion about adding players and nobody has looked at how far we are under the cap, who we could restructure, and whether we can afford to add to future years caps, its all just a fantasy. There is no free lunch. We don't have a blank check. This ain't 1993.

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

It’s business. Bad business. And bad business makes for bad football. The Players deserve better. The Fans deserve better.

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

In the words of Underhill, “they better figure it out. Do something … & fast”.

You simply can’t keep playing this poorly up front.

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

Garrett Boles seems to be unhappy in Denver. They’re tanking for Caleb Williams anyway. Go grab him.

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

Bolles 2023 base salary is $14 million. The Saints are $2.7 million under the cap. The only player the Saints have remaining who could be restructured is James Hurst, generating perhaps $1.5 million to get us to $4.2 million under the cap. This is based on my understanding that roster bonuses are paid by the start of the year and can't be restructured in season, if that is incorrect perhaps we could get to $7 million under the cap restructuring Hurst and Jordan who have about $2 million roster bonuses.

So, the Saints cannot possibly absorb Bolles current salary.

Denver could convert Bolles remaining salary to a signing bonus before trading him, reducing his salary to a league minimum and taking the cap hit themselves, but they would likely ask for significantly higher draft compensation in return for subsidizing our cap by $10 million at the expense of theirs, when they are right at the cap limit, and could gain about $10 million cap room by trading him to a team with cap space. This is especially considering the cap hit they would absorb moving on from Russell Wilson, they need cap relief.

I think we could immediately restructure Bolles to get under the cap. But if we spread that $14 million over 4 years by adding 3 void years to his deal, we are still looking at a $4.25 million cap hit for 2023 requiring a restructure to Hurst (his being willing to help us sign his replacement maybe) and totally maxing out our cap so we are essentially barred from acquiring any other veteran players making above minimum salaries for the rest of the league year. Bolles would likely demand the first year void trigger with a timing that prevented him from being tagged, so we might pay a lot for a one year rental and take a dead cap hit in 2024.

If Bolles wants a big extension this year, we would have to get very creative to do it, in ways he may not like. Essentially whatever signing bonus the the deal includes divided by the number of years on the contract could not exceed $3 million prorated per year for us to make it work with our cap along with a $1 million minimum salary. We could give him a large 2024 guaranteed roster bonus due in March, but he can't cash that check until March, and he might prefer a team who could write him a check today for over $12-$15 million signing bonus (4-5 year deal). I don't know Bolles exact market value, but essentially we could only give him a Granderson / Ruiz level deal if he wants the signing bonus now, and thats only if we restructure Hurst and completely max our cap.

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

Ramz, Ruiz, McKoy, Penning, Hurst etc ... collectively they are ALL bad.

Now we are without a starting caliber QB.

Until playcalling improves & the guys up front start winning their matchups, they will continue to struggle each week.

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

FYI, his name is McCoy, not McKoy. Just sayin'. ;)

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

Doug Marrone is going to cost Dennis Allen his job.

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

Naw. DA's not going anywhere as long as Gayle is alive. Besides, I have every confidence that we right the ship.

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

https://blackandgold.com/data:image/...GaONqywgAZ0P/Zhttps://media.tenor.com/Mvu9jyE5Tz4A...don-ramsay.gif

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

O-line underperformance is not a Saints monopoly.

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

Nor does only one head coach get fired each offseason so it doesnt have to be a monopoly to be unacceptable.

If he plays like a fish out of water I will call him McKoy but for now he is not the problem.

You can’t win without accountability so if DA has a job for life we are the new Raiders or Browns or whatever.

Which Saints oline allowed pressures in one game is interesting but only part of the picture. Who did they face off against, are there any stats like pressures over expected that account for whether they faced the nfl sack leader or a run stuffing specialist who pushed them back 2 yards every play? Also, are there any stats for how often each oline received assistance on his blocking? These two pieces of info would give more insight on quality of play.

Re: Is there a legit immediate impact offensive lineman out there worth trading for?
 

LOL! Nice one, Bako! Didn't know you had it in you. There is promise after all.