Turning Attention to the Draft

BakoSaint · 02-16-2025, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by K Major

But you still have Mickey Loomis and Jeff Ireland ..

Saints traded Ceedy, handed Philly Jalen Carter (draft for Penning pick) & let All Pro Zach Baun leave N.O.

The "strategy" of selecting players based on measurables "prototype", and not whether they can actually play football, is also part of the problem.

Gotta get that cap in order and HIT on those draft picks. Saints need a lot of young, new talent to truly compete.

My moms lousy Medicare Advantage optometrist gave her glasses that don't work as well as her old ones and when she complains that something is wrong with the prescription they say no, you must have cataracts, and refer her to the ophthalmologist. Then when she goes there, they tell her no, you don't have cataracts. This has happened twice. I tell her that probably her optometrist has cataracts and that's why he cannot read or calibrate his equipment correctly and give a correct prescription.

Likewise, maybe the Saints don't need a prototype for their top draft picks, maybe they need a prototype for those making the picks. Maybe that prototype should be 0.0 blood alcohol level, white eyes, good kidney and liver function, well kept personal appearance, lack of awkward nervous habits, younger and more innovative, football background.

Rugby Saint II · 02-16-2025, 03:13 PM

We need a new vision for drafting linemen in the trenches. Maybe Ireland lost his magic. All I know is we have to nail this draft to get turned around quickly. I don't have faith in this front office when it comes to drafting in the early rounds. We do a great with UDFA's though.

Where is the breakdown in communication between the war room and the scouts?

AsylumGuido · 02-16-2025, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by Rugby Saint II

We need a new vision for drafting linemen in the trenches. Maybe Ireland lost his magic. All I know is we have to nail this draft to get turned around quickly. I don't have faith in this front office when it comes to drafting in the early rounds. We do a great with UDFA's though.

Where is the breakdown in communication between the war room and the scouts?

I think we nailed Fuaga in this last draft. I wouldn't call either Penning or Ruiz a swing and a miss at this point. Both are coming along nicely. McCoy is one of the best at his position in the league. It hard to tell what you are getting anymore since none of them are getting any real coaching in college. The same goes for defnsive linemen. There are two or three freaks of nature every year that go near the top of the draft. Beyond that you don't know how they'll respond to real coaching ... if they even get that anymore at the NFL level. With the last couple of CBA's the one on one time that coaches can spend with the players have been slashed even at that level of the game.

saintsfan1976 · 02-16-2025, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

I think we nailed Fuaga in this last draft. I wouldn't call either Penning or Ruiz a swing and a miss at this point. Both are coming along nicely. McCoy is one of the best at his position in the league. It hard to tell what you are getting anymore since none of them are getting any real coaching in college. The same goes for defnsive linemen. There are two or three freaks of nature every year that go near the top of the draft. Beyond that you don't know how they'll respond to real coaching ... if they even get that anymore at the NFL level. With the last couple of CBA's the one on one time that coaches can spend with the players have been slashed even at that level of the game.

No we draft poorly.

2018
Pick 14 plus 1st Round 2019 Marcus Davenport

2019 Boy did we miss out on defensive lineman here...
NYG Pick 17 Dexter Lawrence
TEN Pick 19 Jeffery Simmons
WAS Pick 26 Montez Sweat

2020
Pick 24 Cesar Ruiz

2021
Pick 28 Payton Turner
BUF Pick 30 Gregory Rousseau 26 sacks

2022
Pick 11 plus pick 16, 98, 120 Chris Olave
Pick 19 Trevor Penning

AsylumGuido · 02-17-2025, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by saintsfan1976

No we draft poorly.

2018
Pick 14 plus 1st Round 2019 Marcus Davenport

2019 Boy did we miss out on defensive lineman here...
NYG Pick 17 Dexter Lawrence
TEN Pick 19 Jeffery Simmons
WAS Pick 26 Montez Sweat

2020
Pick 24 Cesar Ruiz

2021
Pick 28 Payton Turner
BUF Pick 30 Gregory Rousseau 26 sacks

2022
Pick 11 plus pick 16, 98, 120 Chris Olave
Pick 19 Trevor Penning

I see nothing wrong with Ruiz or Penning at this point. Just like the majority of linemen coming out of college today they received little to no direction on quality fundamentals and technique. Both have improved a great deal since arriving. Hopefully our new OL coach can further their development. Hopefully the same can be done for Turner on the other line. The rare exeptions these days are the few linemen like Fuaga that come out and hit the field running day one.

Could we have drated better? Sure. Every team can make that claim. Hindsight is always 20-20 as they say.

AsylumGuido · 02-17-2025, 09:25 AM

Jaxson Dart. I don't see this happening.

K Major · 02-17-2025, 10:02 AM

Emeka Egbuka - WR

THE Ohio State

POSITIVES
— Natural route-runner, wins with nuance and detailed movements.
— Fluid change of direction, snaps breaks well to separate from coverage
— Comfortable reading and weaving through high-traffic areas with the ball in his hands
— Strong ball tracking ability all over the field.

NEGATIVES
— Does not use frame and wingspan to fully extend at catch point.
— Heavily used out of the slot, far less snaps throughout career on the outside.

Early Day 2 grades

Chris Olave is a star, but mounting concussions have me worried about his long term health. WR Rashid Shaheed is coming off a knee injury, and after that the room gets into guys like Mason Tipton. If this offense is going to improve, they need their wide receiver depth to improve considerably.

Agree with this ^^^. Saints are one injury from promoting practice squad guys who can’t get open as your starter by week 11.

A consistent, TALENTED chain mover is needed & necessary in NOLA ⚜️.

SmashMouth · 02-17-2025, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by K Major

Emeka Egbuka - WR

THE Ohio State

POSITIVES
— Natural route-runner, wins with nuance and detailed movements.
— Fluid change of direction, snaps breaks well to separate from coverage
— Comfortable reading and weaving through high-traffic areas with the ball in his hands
— Strong ball tracking ability all over the field.

NEGATIVES
— Does not use frame and wingspan to fully extend at catch point.
— Heavily used out of the slot, far less snaps throughout career on the outside.

Early Day 2 grades

Chris Olave is a star, but mounting concussions have me worried about his long term health. WR Rashid Shaheed is coming off a knee injury, and after that the room gets into guys like Mason Tipton. If this offense is going to improve, they need their wide receiver depth to improve considerably.

Agree with this ^^^. Saints are one injury from promoting practice squad guys who can’t get open as your starter by week 11.

A consistent, TALENTED chain mover is needed & necessary in NOLA ⚜️.

Just how much is the QB partly responsible for the concussions a WR gets if the throws aren't leading enough or too high, or too far behind in terms of making sure the WR has the best possible chance for YAC and at the same time minimizing/mitigating opportunities for concussions? I just wonder if one were to compare the stats for Dan Marino, Joe Montana, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, etc how it would compare to today's QB, not just with the Saints, but league wide.

AsylumGuido · 02-17-2025, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by SmashMouth

Just how much is the QB partly responsible for the concussions a WR gets if the throws aren't leading enough or too high, or too far behind in terms of making sure the WR has the best possible chance for YAC and at the same time minimizing/mitigating opportunities for concussions? I just wonder if one were to compare the stats for Dan Marino, Joe Montana, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, etc how it would compare to today's QB, not just with the Saints, but league wide.

Hard to compare, really. Concussions were not tracked until fairly recently. I believe 2015 was the first year the NFL electronically tracked concussions. Basically, all of Marino's and Montana's careers were without any systematic tracking across the league. And only half of Brees' and Brady's careers had any real record of player concussions. It used to be hit them with a smelling salt and send 'em back out in fairly recent history.

I did read, however, that 2024 was the lowest number of recorded concussions since that tracking started.

BakoSaint · 02-17-2025, 01:09 PM

What a coincidence that concussions were not tracked before Carr joined the league, and since Carr joined the league the lowest number of concussions were in the year that Carr missed the most games.

I would consider Penning and Ruiz to be a swing and a miss, or at best a ground out that advances one runner when trailing by multiple runs late in the game. Penning and Ruiz has started games but they have varied from well below average to average at best. Penning was not graded as one of the best 64 offensive tackles in his best year. Ruiz peaked in 2022 I believe and settled in this year as the #38 guard this year where #32.5 would be the league average starter.

With a first round pick you are looking for players to reach the level of above average starter while still on their rookie contracts. Neither have reached above average starter, Ruiz is already past his rookie contract, and Penning is well below average with only one year left on his rookie contract and the Saints cannot reasonably elect his 5th year option for $17.5 million at this level of play. In the unlikely event that either of these players ever develop into above average starters, the Saints would gain little advantage from drafting them, because it would happen after they are past their rookie contracts, and paying market rate. If the Saints goal is to develop lineman who struggle early so that they become assets during their second contracts, we don't need to use draft picks to accomplish that, we could just sign disappointing draft picks as free agents and develop them from there while spending the picks elsewhere.

02-16-2025, 11:48 AM	#61
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,303	Re: Turning Attention to the Draft Originally Posted by K Major But you still have Mickey Loomis and Jeff Ireland .. Saints traded Ceedy, handed Philly Jalen Carter (draft for Penning pick) & let All Pro Zach Baun leave N.O. The "strategy" of selecting players based on measurables "prototype", and not whether they can actually play football, is also part of the problem. Gotta get that cap in order and HIT on those draft picks. Saints need a lot of young, new talent to truly compete. My moms lousy Medicare Advantage optometrist gave her glasses that don't work as well as her old ones and when she complains that something is wrong with the prescription they say no, you must have cataracts, and refer her to the ophthalmologist. Then when she goes there, they tell her no, you don't have cataracts. This has happened twice. I tell her that probably her optometrist has cataracts and that's why he cannot read or calibrate his equipment correctly and give a correct prescription. Likewise, maybe the Saints don't need a prototype for their top draft picks, maybe they need a prototype for those making the picks. Maybe that prototype should be 0.0 blood alcohol level, white eyes, good kidney and liver function, well kept personal appearance, lack of awkward nervous habits, younger and more innovative, football background. SmashMouth and K Major like this.
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,303

02-16-2025, 03:13 PM	#62
Rugby Saint II Bounty Money $$$ Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 5800 Airline Dr. Metairie, LA. Posts: 24,117	Re: Turning Attention to the Draft We need a new vision for drafting linemen in the trenches. Maybe Ireland lost his magic. All I know is we have to nail this draft to get turned around quickly. I don't have faith in this front office when it comes to drafting in the early rounds. We do a great with UDFA's though. Where is the breakdown in communication between the war room and the scouts?

02-16-2025, 03:41 PM	#63
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,465	Re: Turning Attention to the Draft Originally Posted by Rugby Saint II We need a new vision for drafting linemen in the trenches. Maybe Ireland lost his magic. All I know is we have to nail this draft to get turned around quickly. I don't have faith in this front office when it comes to drafting in the early rounds. We do a great with UDFA's though. Where is the breakdown in communication between the war room and the scouts? I think we nailed Fuaga in this last draft. I wouldn't call either Penning or Ruiz a swing and a miss at this point. Both are coming along nicely. McCoy is one of the best at his position in the league. It hard to tell what you are getting anymore since none of them are getting any real coaching in college. The same goes for defnsive linemen. There are two or three freaks of nature every year that go near the top of the draft. Beyond that you don't know how they'll respond to real coaching ... if they even get that anymore at the NFL level. With the last couple of CBA's the one on one time that coaches can spend with the players have been slashed even at that level of the game.
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

02-16-2025, 05:52 PM	#64
saintsfan1976 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Atlanta Posts: 10,971 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Turning Attention to the Draft Originally Posted by AsylumGuido I think we nailed Fuaga in this last draft. I wouldn't call either Penning or Ruiz a swing and a miss at this point. Both are coming along nicely. McCoy is one of the best at his position in the league. It hard to tell what you are getting anymore since none of them are getting any real coaching in college. The same goes for defnsive linemen. There are two or three freaks of nature every year that go near the top of the draft. Beyond that you don't know how they'll respond to real coaching ... if they even get that anymore at the NFL level. With the last couple of CBA's the one on one time that coaches can spend with the players have been slashed even at that level of the game. No we draft poorly. 2018 Pick 14 plus 1st Round 2019 Marcus Davenport 2019 Boy did we miss out on defensive lineman here... NYG Pick 17 Dexter Lawrence TEN Pick 19 Jeffery Simmons WAS Pick 26 Montez Sweat 2020 Pick 24 Cesar Ruiz 2021 Pick 28 Payton Turner BUF Pick 30 Gregory Rousseau 26 sacks 2022 Pick 11 plus pick 16, 98, 120 Chris Olave Pick 19 Trevor Penning K Major likes this.

02-17-2025, 08:59 AM	#65
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,465	Re: Turning Attention to the Draft Originally Posted by saintsfan1976 No we draft poorly. 2018 Pick 14 plus 1st Round 2019 Marcus Davenport 2019 Boy did we miss out on defensive lineman here... NYG Pick 17 Dexter Lawrence TEN Pick 19 Jeffery Simmons WAS Pick 26 Montez Sweat 2020 Pick 24 Cesar Ruiz 2021 Pick 28 Payton Turner BUF Pick 30 Gregory Rousseau 26 sacks 2022 Pick 11 plus pick 16, 98, 120 Chris Olave Pick 19 Trevor Penning I see nothing wrong with Ruiz or Penning at this point. Just like the majority of linemen coming out of college today they received little to no direction on quality fundamentals and technique. Both have improved a great deal since arriving. Hopefully our new OL coach can further their development. Hopefully the same can be done for Turner on the other line. The rare exeptions these days are the few linemen like Fuaga that come out and hit the field running day one. Could we have drated better? Sure. Every team can make that claim. Hindsight is always 20-20 as they say.
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

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02-17-2025, 09:25 AM	#66
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,465	Re: Turning Attention to the Draft Jaxson Dart. I don't see this happening. Twitter

02-17-2025, 10:02 AM	#67
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,735 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Turning Attention to the Draft Emeka Egbuka - WR THE Ohio State POSITIVES — Natural route-runner, wins with nuance and detailed movements. — Fluid change of direction, snaps breaks well to separate from coverage — Comfortable reading and weaving through high-traffic areas with the ball in his hands — Strong ball tracking ability all over the field. NEGATIVES — Does not use frame and wingspan to fully extend at catch point. — Heavily used out of the slot, far less snaps throughout career on the outside. Early Day 2 grades Chris Olave is a star, but mounting concussions have me worried about his long term health. WR Rashid Shaheed is coming off a knee injury, and after that the room gets into guys like Mason Tipton. If this offense is going to improve, they need their wide receiver depth to improve considerably. Agree with this ^^^. Saints are one injury from promoting practice squad guys who can’t get open as your starter by week 11. A consistent, TALENTED chain mover is needed & necessary in NOLA ⚜️.

02-17-2025, 10:40 AM	#68
SmashMouth I donated, did you? Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Mandeville, LA Posts: 38,472 Blog Entries: 29	Re: Turning Attention to the Draft Originally Posted by K Major Emeka Egbuka - WR THE Ohio State POSITIVES — Natural route-runner, wins with nuance and detailed movements. — Fluid change of direction, snaps breaks well to separate from coverage — Comfortable reading and weaving through high-traffic areas with the ball in his hands — Strong ball tracking ability all over the field. NEGATIVES — Does not use frame and wingspan to fully extend at catch point. — Heavily used out of the slot, far less snaps throughout career on the outside. Early Day 2 grades Chris Olave is a star, but mounting concussions have me worried about his long term health. WR Rashid Shaheed is coming off a knee injury, and after that the room gets into guys like Mason Tipton. If this offense is going to improve, they need their wide receiver depth to improve considerably. Agree with this ^^^. Saints are one injury from promoting practice squad guys who can’t get open as your starter by week 11. A consistent, TALENTED chain mover is needed & necessary in NOLA ⚜️. Just how much is the QB partly responsible for the concussions a WR gets if the throws aren't leading enough or too high, or too far behind in terms of making sure the WR has the best possible chance for YAC and at the same time minimizing/mitigating opportunities for concussions? I just wonder if one were to compare the stats for Dan Marino, Joe Montana, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, etc how it would compare to today's QB, not just with the Saints, but league wide.

02-17-2025, 12:09 PM	#69
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,465	Re: Turning Attention to the Draft Originally Posted by SmashMouth Just how much is the QB partly responsible for the concussions a WR gets if the throws aren't leading enough or too high, or too far behind in terms of making sure the WR has the best possible chance for YAC and at the same time minimizing/mitigating opportunities for concussions? I just wonder if one were to compare the stats for Dan Marino, Joe Montana, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, etc how it would compare to today's QB, not just with the Saints, but league wide. Hard to compare, really. Concussions were not tracked until fairly recently. I believe 2015 was the first year the NFL electronically tracked concussions. Basically, all of Marino's and Montana's careers were without any systematic tracking across the league. And only half of Brees' and Brady's careers had any real record of player concussions. It used to be hit them with a smelling salt and send 'em back out in fairly recent history. I did read, however, that 2024 was the lowest number of recorded concussions since that tracking started.

02-17-2025, 01:09 PM	#70
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,303	Re: Turning Attention to the Draft What a coincidence that concussions were not tracked before Carr joined the league, and since Carr joined the league the lowest number of concussions were in the year that Carr missed the most games. I would consider Penning and Ruiz to be a swing and a miss, or at best a ground out that advances one runner when trailing by multiple runs late in the game. Penning and Ruiz has started games but they have varied from well below average to average at best. Penning was not graded as one of the best 64 offensive tackles in his best year. Ruiz peaked in 2022 I believe and settled in this year as the #38 guard this year where #32.5 would be the league average starter. With a first round pick you are looking for players to reach the level of above average starter while still on their rookie contracts. Neither have reached above average starter, Ruiz is already past his rookie contract, and Penning is well below average with only one year left on his rookie contract and the Saints cannot reasonably elect his 5th year option for $17.5 million at this level of play. In the unlikely event that either of these players ever develop into above average starters, the Saints would gain little advantage from drafting them, because it would happen after they are past their rookie contracts, and paying market rate. If the Saints goal is to develop lineman who struggle early so that they become assets during their second contracts, we don't need to use draft picks to accomplish that, we could just sign disappointing draft picks as free agents and develop them from there while spending the picks elsewhere.
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,303