Saints defense has actually played well...
 

.. I was about to post this on another thread, but figured I make it a thread of its own, because I find this very interesting.

Contrary to popular belief, the defense has played well this year... Here's why:

- Before yesterday, the Saints defense was the only defense to hold the Panthers to less than 21 points.

- Against the Giants, the Saints committed 6 turnovers, some in their own territory... what do you expect the defense to do?

- Held the Bills to 7 points

- Against the Vikings, a couple of things jump out:
the Saints defense had 7 sacks, and a sack usually stops a drive... but when you look at time of possession, you'll see that the Vikings held the ball almost twice as much as the Saints ( 38+ minutes vs 21+ minutes)... The reason? The Saints offense was 2 of 12 on 3rd downs and had 4 turnovers... I actually think it is a testament to the good play of the defense that they held the Vikings to field goals in the 4th quarter considering that they were on the field for almost 40 minutes.

- Against the Pack, 5 turnovers by the offense; 4 out of 16 3rd down convertions... Defense can't do much there either...

- Against the Falcons, they weren 't great, but they weren't horrible either... offense played good for a change...

- Against the Rams, they weren't great, but no horrible either... held the Rams to 21 points..

- Held the Dolphins to 19 points, created 2 turnovers; the Saints offense out-did itself by going 0-11 on 3rd downs, and scoring only 6 points...

- Against the Bears, the Defense created 3 turnovers. Points off those turnovers, 0. Offense out-did the Bears offense by turning the ball 4 times.

- Against the Pats, both offense and defense played decent, but the Pats made the plays when it counted...

SO, while no one is going to confuse the 2005 Saints defense with the 1985 Bears defense, they have actually been playing well... it seems it is the offense that stinks now :)

The offense stunk last year too TR. 12 straight games with no points in the first quarter? But you make a good point. I have a tweak though:

I thought they played pretty damn well against the Falcons. The Falcons got 21 points off turnovers, a theme for this season. More than half the total points we have given up have come off turnovers, well, at least until last week. It's prob about 50/50 now, which is just awful. The defense has played well enough for us to have won more games with a competent offense that didn't turn the ball over, and could convert a third down in the past 2-3 weeks.

Good call on the Falcons game, that was definitely the offense/special teams' fault.

Also, another point that I would make is that even despite the relatively good statistical numbers, our defense has still not been able to make the BIG play when it counts. Holding the Falcons to seal overtime, third quarter touchdown that pretty much put the game out of reach against the Pats, etc. Also, penalties are still a big problem, but I would put most of the blame on the coaching for that one.

Overall, I have been very pleased with our defense, even though the entire team sucks. But still, they have a long way to go if this team wants to get to the playoffs.

I think the main takeaway is that a lot of posters always blamed the defense for our losses and poor play. Now they cannot use that excuse. But I will add something -- we play good defense most of the game -- but in critical situations on 3rd and long we seem to let the firtst down occur.

..you either missed the point, or are making excuses for the offense.

THIRD quarter TD put the game out of reach against the Pats? 21-7 in the third quarter puts the game out of reach?

..and they DID hold the Falcons at the end of the game.. it was a special teams penalty that gave the Falcons the chance to kick the FG again...

...the coaching staff is not committing the false-starts or holdings...

... I don't know about you, but I think the defense creating a turnover, whether it is an interception or a fumble recovery, is a big play. The defense has been creating turnovers, but the offense is not scoring any points off them.

That's a confusing statement. The entire team actually does not suck. Tobias makes a great point. The defense has been very adequate this year....good enough to win some games. There have been breakdowns, but overall they have played well enough.

I have made this point several times over the last couple of years. Look at our point totals in our losses:

10 isn't gonna beat the Giants.
16 isn't gonna beat the Vikes.
3 isn't gonna beat anybody.
17 isn't gonna beat the Rams.
6 isn't gonna beat anybody.
17 COULD beat the bears, but look at Tobias' point about that game.

The Atlanta game is the only time that the offense has hit 24 all year. Think about that. 10 games in and we've broken 24 once. Very poor.

You can look at the Atl game and say they scored alot of points. But.....14 non offensive points plus a bonehead pick inside our 20.

This one is on the offense. The defense has played well enough to win 5-6 games. PERIOD.

On paper, the Saints D doesn't look bad. The problem as I've mentioned before, is that they can't close the deal at opportune times. I, too, get frustrated with the offense sputtering, but I also get frustrated with a defense allowing Ron Mexico to drive down the field in about 30 seconds. I get frustrated wtih them giving up a 40 + yard run to Chicago when we need them to hold just ONE MORE TIME.

You guys are right though. I've seen alot more RBs getting stuffed for 2 and 3 gard gains this season than I did last year. The D has definitely improved. However, the "key situations" thing is killing us. I get frustrated when our offense doesn't get enough first downs and put enough points on the board, but I also get frustrated when the D can't get people off the field when we need them to..

On a side note....I think the switch to Ronald McKinnon at LB has helped us out alot. Your thoughts?

Agreed on McKinnon.

You are right. They still have that fantastic Saints timing where some painful plays occur, mental breakdowns, big runs in known run situations, etc.

The 98 yard drive was very indicitive of this. There were 3-4 times where it looked like they would get off the field, but they were just a hair off. And they still can't cover a TE. I blame the scheme as mush as the players.

Our D stinks... they may look good on PAPER but the key is not giving up big plays DUH... New England is so good because that is there focus...

DUH.

Yes you are right. They say "hey guys...this week, we'll focus on not to giving up big plays"

Whereas, the Saints say "guys, let's focus on stopping 4 yard gains....big plays are OK"

If we could just shoot Venturi an email.....I think we could clear this up.

Nobody ever said anything about our D looking good on paper. They are mediocre on paper and mediocre on the field. We suffer as much from long sustained drives where we can't get off the field as we do from big plays.

And I don't expect you to get this, but if we were losing 34-31, 42-28, etc, you could say that the D is terrible and our O is doing enough to win games. Our D is often in shutdown mode late even when they've only given up 17-21 points, we are still down by 2 scores in the fourth qtr. It's a fact....look it up. The offensive output is unacceptable. The defense is middle of the road, and our turbo charged offense should be able to bail them out a couple of times. As it is....the O never gives the D any breathing room. The D does not "stink"...the O stinks, the D is average.

And you continue to have no idea what you see on Sunday.

You are not smart.

Yeah...that Tom Brady guy is not very good. The Dolphins scored 19 points against us....big deal, we scored 6. Don't even bring up GB or we'll have to talk about that pick your assmate threw to get the game going. The Falcons game, the d gave up 20 points, including the 7 that Brooks gave them with that pick inside the 20.

This is not an excuse, you twit, it is called analysis.

Why don't you turn your laser focus on some of the defenses we have faced and the corresponding fantastic results. Is the GB D a juggernaut? 3 points....our offense gave up 14. Miami is decent. 6 points. The Rams? 17 points. You wanna talk about NE being depleted? Look at their defense. 17 points.

I have so had it with your moronic statements. You and Euph need to go get a room, cover the walls in AB posters, put on your # 2 codpieces, and watch video of the 45-7 victory against the Giants practice squad defense until you have each achieved peak arousal.

Come get some.

Well, your defense of AB is an underlying theme of all your posts. I never said it was good that they got burnt on play action. The D did not play good on Sunday, but it's not like 24 points is alot.....is it? I mean is it?

And i won't even get into trying to decipher your other bastardizations of our language.....I'll just go jump off a cliff.

I'll tell you what....why do you get lost? So there.....Nyaaaaah :crazy:

You're funny ;)

Lessee,

The Saints' defense is currently ranked 12th in the league in yards allowed per game with 309. Not bad.
The Bears are ranked 1st, with 252.1 yards allowed per game.

The Saints' run defense is abysmal, giving up 138.6 yards per game. So we have some problems up the middle? Nothing new.

The Saints' passing defense is ranked 3rd in the NFL, giving up only 170.4 yards per game. That's pretty good. To think, a few years ago we were all worried about the defensive backfield.

The Saints' are ranked 28th in the league in points allowed per game with 26.6. I wonder if that had anything to do with turnovers. Hmmmm....

Let's look at the offense

16th in the league in yards per game. Average.

12th in the league in yards per game rushing. We're doing pretty good in that department, considering we lost our star back for the year.

17th in the league in yards per game passing. Eh....not overly bad, not overly good.

26th in the league in points scored per game. Why can't we punch it in? Turnovers, maybe?

Hey, wait....we're ranked first in something....

The Saints' rank 1st in total turnovers, 13 interceptions & 14 fumbles for a total of 27.
Whoa! Don't slip up or get got! (Why not man?)
I'm comin for that number one spot! (Alright)

Where did they all come from???

So in summary, we have multiple problems. We can't stop the run (defense), penalties, an off-again on-again kicker, and a boneheaded QB that a select few feel the need to protect at all costs.

Nothing like being a Saints' fan!!!

...man, really, stop embarassing yourself...

hint: the Pats' DEFENSE is what's depleted, not the offense, especially THE SECONDARY!! You waned the Saints defense to exploit the Pat's secondary???

hint: the Packers' DEFENSE is in shambles...

hint: how many games have you seen a team won when the commit 5-6 offensive turnovers?

..seriously, man. Stop embarassing yourself...

So, we shouldn't make any judgements based on rankings and we need to rebuild this team, ignoring the offense, and build a defense and special teams that will score enough points to win us games.

OK, I think I got it now :brood:

BlackOnBlack,

I, too, feel that the Saints's D is more of a liablity than their 12th-place overall ranking indicates. And I also feel that far too much CREDIT is being given by some folks here to the defense. But I don't see this defense as being "horrible". Both sides deserve their fair share of blame for our poor record.

..well, ain't that sweet...
..what do you mean too much credit? It's not too much credit, is just pointing out the obvious..

... so, scoring 10, 3, 6, 16 points in 4 games, that's not a liability...

.. so, turning the ball over 28 times, tops in the NFL, 11 times in 2 games, that don't count...

... so failing to convert on 3rd down is not a liabilty ( including going 2 for 24 in a span of 2 games) that's minutia...

... so, scoring 16 TD's in 10 games, that's the defense's fault... they ought to "take it to the house" couple of times a game...

... so, not scoring any points off turnovers by the opposition, who cares?

..the more I see the games' results, the more than "adequate" the defense looks to me, and the worse the offense looks...

"

...

I guess I stuttered when I said BOTH SIDES deserved their fair share of the blame....

We're not talking about the situation that the Baltimore Ravens always seem to have......where the defense is always adequate or superior while the offense just bumbles along.................we're talking about a situation where the defense CONTRIBUTES to costing us games by allowing long drives, committing stupid penalties, giving up too many big plays, and breaking down at critical moments when we need a stoppage., and the OFFENSE contributes to costing us games by doing alot of the stuff you just mentioned.

Stop using the SaintsWhodi method of debate. Comparative blame only works when it's a Baltimore Raven-like situation as I mentioned above. There have been games this season when it looked like the Offense did more than enough to win, while the D surrendered something late and blew it for us. On the flip side, there have been games such as the New England game, where the D did enough to keep us in it, and the offense couldn't deliver at the end. And yet, with guys like you and a few others, it always comes back to the offense, and more often than not, the quarterback. In the end, the defense is only mildly, if ever, critiqued..........and the #12 overall ranking gets thrown out there, as if that tells the entire story..

Key points, those. The offense for our Saints is horrid. The offense is THE key reason for our losing this season. Carney's failing leg hurts. Two kick returns for TDs hurt. Our defense has easily kept us in almost every game this season. Our offense simply cannot do ANYTHING this year.

What are you talking about?? The Saintswhodi method of debate??? Now it's all about all coming back to the QB???
... you should strop embarassing yourself as well...

why don't you refute the points I made?

Why don't you tell me how any defense can compensate for the offense turning the ball over 6 times on a game? By creating 7 turnovers themselves???? Would it matter if the offense can't score points off turnovers to save their lives??

Why don't you tell me how any defense can compensate for the offense scoring less than 10 points a game? By shutting down the opposition or scoring 2 TD's?? 4 games on a row??? The purpose of the offense is to score points right??

oh, no.. let's just say that everyone is to blame now, making sure the blame doesn't go back to the QB... let's just say that they give the big play... yeah, that's really good debating...

BoB, my dear BoB... you really need to stop and think before you post...

...let ME ask YOU a couple of questions:

On how many games during their Superbowl run did the Bucs turn the ball 5 times, or failed to convert less than 3 3rd downs, or failed to score points of 3 turnovers, or scored less that 10 points and won?

On how many games during their Superbowl run did the Panthers turn the ball 5 times, or failed to convert less than 3 3rd downs, or failed to score points of 3 turnovers, or scored less that 10 points and won?

Answwer to both questions: none

Do you see it, or do I have to explain it to you? Te offense has been so abyssmal this year that it is hanging the very average defense out to dry...

..you obviously don't want to see it, because the first thing that comes to your mind is defending Brooks, since he's part of the offense... obviously your fandom is devoted to a player, not the team...

... of course, it is easier to blame it all on the defense, and ask why they aren't as good as the best defenses of the past and present...

You are quick to dismiss anything BlackOnBlack says.......but he actually had a good point about the Bears of this season, and their point production..

I'm not giving the offense a free pass in any way. You asked why didn't I refute your points? I acknowledged your points! I said that our offense had cost us games as a result of the stuff you listed, JUST AS our defense cost us game with spotty play.

The only reason I joined in on this debate was simply to point out that I think our defense is being a bit too much credit. If you want me to break it down into descriptive terms, I think we have an average defense (compared to below-average last year)and a spotty offense. If you want to weigh it precicely, I will concede that our defense has been slightly more consistant than the offense, but they are by no means some major force to be reckoned with.
Remember, Haslett once had to pull ALL THREE of his starting linebackers in the Minnesota game because of crappy play. Good defenses don't have that happen. Or how about players running into each other in the New England game? Or Dwight Smith looking at someone's cleats after Mike McKenzie let that person run right by him? You can have a bunch of talent (and we have lots of talent....from the passrushers, to Bockwaldt, to McKinnon, to McKenzie, to Smith, to Fahkir Brown, to Freddie Thomas to Bollocks...etc etc), but talent doesn't mean squat if you aren't playing as a team. Yes I know that's about as generic and cliche' as it gets, but look no further than the 2000 (or 2001?) Washington Redskins. They brought all the talent they could manage in order to make a Super Bowl run, and they wound up going something like 8-8.

Back on the subject of our talented, albeit underachieving at times, defense...... Could you imagine how scary our defense COULD be if we had a different defensive coordinator?

Wait, wait, wait. Tobias asked you the following questions:

And you reply with:

Tobias' question is acutally four-pronged, so let's check your answers to see if they match up.

I can see from your answer that Jake fumbled 15 times and threw 16 interceptions- that's 31 turnovers total....for Jake. Still hasn't answered the original question, but you were close. Out of 53 players, you managed to post the stats of one. 52 more to go.

Don't see where you provided any information on this.

Don't see where you provided any information on this.

Don't see where you provided any information on this.

You do realize by posting something that doesn't answer the original question, reagardless of whether you roll the "You're Wrong" flag up the pole, people will rip right through it.

So far you've managed to provide everyone how many turnovers Jake had back in 2003. Congrats, I wasn't sure about the appoximate number, but had I been asked to take a guess, i would have been close. Outside of that, you have provided NOTHING in the way of an valid answer to the questions that were posed to you, even if you act like you've answered them....you haven't.

So, when discussing our D, we should talk about the Bears defense? I believe they are statistically the best in the league.

Nobody here said that the Saints D was the best in the league. Gambler said too much credit was being given, which again shows some of the reading comprehension issues on this board. Nobody has come out and said the Saints have a top 5 defense. The numbers versus the pass are probably better because people don't throw as much against teams they can gash on the ground. (objectivity warning)

The defense is not fantastic, or even good. The point in this thread is that the defense is adequate. BnB, if you are going to mention the Bears, who are doing it with great D and smart play (and a rookie QB), then I guess we should ask how many times last years Colts were held to 6 points and compare them to our sorry ass offense. It's completely irrelevant to this discussion.

The point of this thread is as follows. (These are facts, indisputable, and totally correct.)

The Saints have built a reputation over the last few years that their formula for success is a high powered offense with a rocket arm QB and speedy receivers, mixed in with a solid running game (which has been a bit disappointing). They are not the Bears of 2005 or 1985 or the Bucs or the Ravens....if you think they are designed that way, well, you're a moron. The offense is expected to score, not 40 points like some recent teams (Chiefs, Colts, Rams, Vikes), but a respectable amount of points. I set my bar at about 24 points a game. Three Tds and a FG in 4 qtrs....not crazy talk...right?

So, when this team fails to break 20 routinely, and people come out against the Defense, it rings hollow. It is not accurate. Look at the turnovers, look at the lack of production by the O once they cross the 50. The point totals are way down. The offense is simply not scorong enough. The Defense is playing better, rankings or otherwise. We still can't stop the run, which is a big problem...but again 6 points against a battered Dolphins D, 3 points against the Packers practice squad, and only 17 against a no name Pats secondary. 348 yards passing....17 points. All style, no substance, which is what you get from our QB.

This team could not win on dominant defense alone, and nobody said they could. But, with our offense, middle of the road D should get you to at least 500 right now. The D has played well enough, the offense only showed up big for the Falcons. (And BNB, how you can blame our D for that loss amazes me.....14 non offenseive points and a late Brooks pick inside the 20 put us in that situation, whether Vick got to us on the last drive or not...he was bottled up all day and the D played a solid game.)

wow 5 back to back posts. Nice job. You talk about the defense being able to finish a game? How about an offense that can actually get in it? Speaking for myself I don't care about any other qb's stats or offense stats or defense stats. Show me good play on the field and get me wins. The offense can't score worth a crap and brooks throws into the ground and behind recievers. That's what I see on sundays. Something for the defense side of the ball...Craft sucks. There now you can't say I've singled out Brooks.

Why are you posting carolina stats. I trhought this was a saints forum? Brooks stats not good enough to post?

Yeah but you always bring up Jake so you must have started it.

HA HA HA!!

Hey, really.. stop embarassing yourself... yes the Panthers were horrible converting 3rd downs in that game against the Cowboys in their Superbowl year.... and guess what??

THE PANTHERS LOST THE FREAKING GAME 24-20!!!!!

... seriously dude, just stop it...

yep, and the 2004 Bucs ended 5-11 ...

seriously, stop it man...

..yep, and again, THE PANTHERS LOST THE GAME, didn't they?

... I'm going to stop right here, because you are just rambling now... it's past the amusing point, and now it is just sad...

.. no, dimwit...
Find a game where their offense had 5 turnovers AND WON...
Find a game where their offense failed to convert on 3rd downs AND WON

... for Pete's sake, stop it... seriously...

Actually B&B, that stat he posted on Jake is also a lie in that he fumbled 15 times, but most of them were recovered by the Panthers. I think he had only 5 lost out of the 15 fumbles, so 21 turnovers. Maybe 6 so 22. Brooks led the league in lost fumbles that year with 13. So not only did he not answet the questions, he is once again posting false stats to try and prove another ridiculous point.

A bone....I was tossing him a bone.

Going to try this argument next time I get pulled over.

Take your meds.You're losing it.

You've been proven wrong time and time again in this forum. You only post Jake stats and say they are brooks, you say the defense should score for the offense. You ignore the many times the offense has given up turnovers. You don't understand that the playbook was simplified for
HIM. why would they do that? You asked for proof where sports writers were bashing brooks and were provided them and still don't believe them. I've made my argument which is the same as the majority in this forum. weather you want to believe it or not brooks sucks. So maybe you need meds to see clearly. Maybe watch brooks play a game and stop watching Jake.

Stop being a little woman by arguing with emotions and not the facts.
Defense should only be concerned with takeaways. Scoring is a bonus. I doubt that you expect the nose tackle to run the field and score.

How bout when the defense does get a takeaway the offense manages to turn it into points? Bet that helps the TEAM out and probably fires up the defense more for doing their job getting the takaway.

Look I don't want to be reduced into name calling with you. But you like being in the minority with your opinions and you want to call people out then say they are in a "click". Wise up will you. Brooks may thrive on another team, we won't know until it happens. But here he is not doing it.

The Defense might thrive with some new LB's and coaching. Until that happens Craft does suck.

The offense needs to score more points. They admit not being able to get past the 40 yard line and score.
Not every defense we have played against is good but our offense makes them seem like pro bowlers.

You don't have to agree with any of that but you are in the minority. Be mad, spout college ball, and Jakes stats it won't help you.