WhoDat

If Joe\'s year in 2003 is any worse than his 2002 year it will ONLY be because the Saints better utilize their tight ends and runningbacks in the passing game. Don\'t listen to him Shack. Gator believes Joe Horn will get worse this year, but I\'m not sure what he\'s basing that idea on other than his gut feeling... age maybe?

Fact is, that Horn has played at a Pro Bowl level each year he\'s been here. He did it when he was basically the only guy we had in 2000. He did it with another 1000 yard reciever (Willie Jackson) in 01, and he did it again in 02 with a rookie phenom and a guy they brought in to \"stretch the field\" in Pathon. I see no reason to believe that he\'ll stop.

Gator thinks anyone over the age of 28 is too old to produce anymore (right Gator? ). Bottom line to me - Horn has done it year in year out regardless of who else is around him, what the offensive scheme is, etc. I see NO signs of him slowing down. Will he eventually? Of course. But bottom line is right now, he\'s a Pro Bowler. He\'s the best receiver that the Saints have ever had. There are plenty of other guys in the league who are older them him and can still get it done as a number one receiver.

I think what Horn is asking for now is a bit high... but that\'s what you do when you negociate. You ask for more than you really want, and compromise down to where you really ought to be. Horn deserves a big contract. He\'s worth it. And you are very right about Horn and his mouth. If Horn doesn\'t get his money he will be a problem in the locker room. Even Gator knows that.

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

D_it_up

One thing I do have to say about Joe is that he keeps himself in tremendous shape. If he does get injured, it is normally minor. He\'s been producing at a high level since he came to New Orleans. I feel as long as he keeps himself together physically, there is no reason why the Saints COULDN\'T sign him to a long deal. I know these next two examples of WR\'s up in age will bring more debate, but Jerry Rice and Tim Brown are STILL performing at a high level. What makes you think Joe couldn\'t?

People shouldn't be afraid of their government. Governments should be afraid of their people.

WhoDat

You\'re exactly right D, but don\'t talk to Gator about those two guys. They are exceptions to the rule in his mind.... we already had this debate. And seeing how Gator never answered my first challenge... hehehe... I\'ll put my list of \"older\" receivers up again and see if Gator can find me 20 better young players.. These are all number one or two receivers on their team\'s depth chart.

Rod Smith - entering 9th year.
Marvin Harrison - entering 8th.
Jimmy Smith - 10 years in the league.
Johnnie Morton - 9 years in.
Eddie Kennison - entering 8th year.
Troy Brown - starting his 11th year.
Wayne Chrebet - entering 9th year
Curtis Conway - 10 years in the league.
Frank Sanders - entering 9th year.
Shawn Jefferson - 12 years in the league.
Muhsin Muhammad - Entering 8th year.
Joey Galloway - Entering 9th year.
Bill Schroeder - Entering 9th year.
Amani Toomer - Going into 8th year.
Terrell Ownes - Entering 8th year.
Bobby Engram - Entering 8th year.
Isaac Bruce - 9 years in the league.
Keyshawn Johnson - Entering 8th year.
Keenan McCardell - 12 years in the league.

Go find me 20 better receivers with less experience. These guys aren\'t all stars, but they\'re all solid.

Gator?

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

WhoDat

PS - That list excludes Horn, Rice, and Brown - three of the best in the league.

ScottyRo

WhoDat, I thought your challenge to Gator was very interesting so I decided to take it up. However, instead of basing my players on years of experience I based the list on age since it is age that makes a player slow down rather than how many years of experience he has. (Although the two may seem inter-related, a player such as Horn may not have as many years experience as another player, but still is a couple years older - and presumably about to becomet slower.)

First, I went over your list. All your players except Amani Toomer are or will be 30 or more this coming season. In his place I\'ll give you Eric Moulds, who will be 30 this season. I added in Horn, Rice and Brown bringing your total to 22 players.

Second, I compiled my list of 22. All players are 29 or younger:

Randy Moss, 26
Torry Holt, 27
Plaxico Burress, 26
David Boston, 25
Peerless Price, 27
Ike Hilliard, 28
Amani Toomer, 29
Donald Driver, 28
Donte Stallwoth, 22
Marty Booker, 27
Chris Chambers, 25
David Patten, 29
Jerry Porter, 25
Derrick Mason, 29
Ashley Lelie, 23
Koren Robinson, 23
Deion Branch, 24
James Thrash, 28
Kevin Dyson, 27
Antonio Bryant, 22
Antwaan Randle El, 24
Jabar Gaffney, 23

I think for the most part our lists match up pretty favorably. Your top 2 or 3 players are so elite in the league it is hard to say that any of mine are better, but once you get past those my list is better.

Better because they\'re just as good now AND because they\'ll be around longer.

One other point I\'d like to make is that there really isn\'t room here for a statistical comparison between this list and WhoDat\'s. That is because a player like Jerry Porter, for instance, isn\'t yet getting the opportunities to put up big stats because he\'s behind Rice and Brown. However, if you watched him last year, you know that he\'s gonna be good for years to come.

Well? What do you think?

WhoDat

You guys put together a couple of good lists. Mine happened to contain the starting receivers for both the NFC and AFC Pro Bowl squads... all of them... but yours aren\'t bad.

A couple other notes... Gator, a 1967 Mustang convertible IS worth more than a 2003 corvette... and it\'s not as fast. Bad analogy... but it actually kind of speaks to my point. You DON\'T give 21-22 year old players huge contracts... why? B/c they\'re rookies. You\'re 22 when you graduate. You don\'t know what they will do. But let\'s say Donte plays out his contract... but never quite lives up to his billing. At 27 you sign him to a new deal and he becomes a star. Are you telling me you DON\'T resign him to a long term deal? C\'mon Gator. It\'s a nice fantasy to think that players should live up to their current contract, but that\'s not football. If a player overachieves he gets a new contract. If we don\'t give it to him Horn with throw such a fit that he\'ll have to be traded like Turley was. To you, that\'s probably OK b/c I imagine you think Dante Stallworth (who has played one season in which he got injured) is as good right now as Joe Horn (who has been to three straight Pro Bowls). He\'s not Gator.

Finally, I am amazed that you would say \"Joe couldn\'t be anyone else\'s #1 reciever in the League.\" How many other receivers have been to 3 straight Pro Bowls? Are you going to tell me that the SAINTS made him into what he is? Without OUR system he couldn\'t perform like he has? That\'s ridiculous.

The bottom line remains unchanged. Horn is one of the best receivers in the league right now. He\'s shown no signs of slowing. He was promised a big contract by Loomis this off-season. If they are willing to keep Venturi at D-coordinator out of LOYALTY, then Horn should be the highest player in the league. My point is, the Saints should live up to their promises and pay the guy who has been our most consistent and best player over the last three years, the best player at his position in our team\'s history, the money he deserves. And yes, he does deserve more than he is getting right now.

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

WhoDat

Out of curiosity Gator, are you happy with the Tebucky move?

iceshack149

Way to get us back on track, whodat.
Tebucky is too old. Just goofin\'. Tebucky has alot of physical talent. He brings speed and I think that he\'s really beginning to understand his position well. I\'m excited. I miss Sammy but TJ should fit in just fine.

lsusurfer

All this debate about Horn is useless:

Facts:
He wants a new contract
He wont play without one
WE NEED HIM NEXT YEAR, nobody can replace him

so....
WE HAVE TO PAY

and I think we should

BlackandBlue

What condition is that Mustang in? I agree the Vette would be more even if both are in mint condition, but I figured it would be worth more than $16K.
Horn wants a 7 year deal. That would put him playing till he is 38-39 years old. I don\'t see it. I\'d be all for giving him a fat 5 year deal, but not 7.