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i'll put it as simply as i see it, lienart played with great talent around him. vince young played with good talent around him. lienart played with probably 6 other players on offense that will be top 25 picks in the nfl draft on offense alone. vince probably had besides himself 1 maybe 2 on offense that will be top 40 picks in the nfl on offense.
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sorry my wireless keyboard is hit and miss. i moved the keyboard
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that may be a fair take win. but that may also have something to do with their leading rusher being a freshamn and both leading wideouts being soph.
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Palmer is physically superior in terms of mobility, arm strength. I made the comparasion to Dorsey, great college QB, not a great arm, surrounded by top talent. As for Young, he had talent around him. However, Reymonce Taylor/Jamal Charles are not Lendale White/Reggie Bush. Limas Sweed/Pittman are not Dwayne Jarret/Steve Smith. Jarrett,Bush,White will all be top 15 picks. Where have you seen such a high grade on Leinart? If Haslett likes him that should say enough
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moving on... maybe the reason why there are so many talented and high quality offensive players on USC because leinart has the ability to make other players look better than they are (see peyton manning making stokley and marcus pollard look talented, as well as brady making all his wrs except branch look much better than they really are). also, why is it so easy to say all the other players on USC's offense are real nfl prospects, but lienart isn't. deuce, sometimes i think you and are are some of the only ones who know what we are talking about. chermie you do alright too. haha |
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Just in case your wondering, VY is graded as a 93. |
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I just looooove posts like this one, because it gives us the ridiculous people of B&G a chance to exercise of lil' ol' brains, and have the facts hit us right 'n the kisser... ..well, let's check it out... Quote:
Jeff George #1 overall Drew Bledsoe #1 overall successful QB Rick Mirer #2 overall Heath Shuler #3 overall Steve McNair #3 overall successful QB Peyton Manning #1 overall successful QB Ryan Leaf #2 overall Tim Couch #1 overall Donovan McNabb successful QB Akili Smith #2 overall Michael Vick #1 overall has had some success, but is he a QB??? David Carr #1 overall Joey Harrington #3 overall Carson Palmer #1 overall successful QB Eli Manning Alex Smith. Ok... let's see... I'm going to take out the last 2, because they don't have enough playing time to have a fair assessment. So, including Vick, who's not a good QB but has had some success, I count 6 succcessful QBs out of 14 . . I dare say that the chances of having a succcessful QB pick in the top 3 are probably less than 43% A curious factoid: you can find only 1 Superbowl ring among all of the above, and it belongs to Bledsoe, who got it while sitting on the bench watching Brady play . Quote:
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Rick Mirer Ryan Leaf Akili Smith Oh, yeah, safe bet to lose!!! Quote:
Kyle Boller is a good QB??? Joey Harrington is a good QB??? Michael Vick is a good QB??? He is exciting to watch, and dangerous when he runs, but good QB??? Byron Leftwich?? I don't know if I would call him "good".. tough, sure... but "good"?? I don't know Rex Grossman?? The guy has started 2 games in the NFL and he's good??? Culpepper is good??? Guess lofting balls to Randy Moss makes anyone good. Now, after carefully studying the passer rating table, let's see what I learned: I learned that Trent Dilfer had a better QB rating than Eli Manning Michael Vick Joey Harrington Kyle Boller I learned that, out of the top 10 rated passers, 5 were not picked in the 1st round. Matt Hasselbeck Marc Bulger Tom Brady Trent Green Drew Brees ... it is obvious that, as draft rounds pass, the talent gets diluted. So the pure mathematical chances of picking a good player at ANY position, offense or defense, diminish. But there are plenty of guys who have been picked in later rounds who play as good as, if not better, than guys picked in the 1st round, and cost much much less... Also, after the season they had, I'm pretty sure the Saints could get, if they wanted: Kerry Collins Joey Harrington Kyle Boller Which one would you like as your 2006 New Orleans Saints QB? |
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nice post T-R
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it is a falacy(sp) to try to gauge success based off of where someone was picked. each is a unique situation and there are many other factors that contributed to many of those listed being busts.
to talk about a few: Jeff George-was a solid qb over the years, but had a serious attitude problem that caused most of his failures on the field. Heath Shuler-way over hyped at tennesse. scouts listened far too much to those volunteer fans instead of their eyes. Ryan Leaf-played in a weak conference, was overhyped for 1 great year and 1 good year. had an attitude problem. Tim Couch-played at kentucky. should be enough said. played in a spread pass happy offense and that was the only reason why he had anywhere close to the numbers he did. if he would have been selected in the 3 or 4th round and got a year or 2 on the bench he might have been a solid back up or decent starter. Akili Smith -1 great year in the weak Pac-10. this was a no brainner even back when he was drafted. Michael Vick-some consider him a bust for a #1 pick, but he is exactly what he was advertised as...a game changer. he will never be a qb in the traditional sense, instead he will always be a guy who can change a game with his athletecism and do enough with his arm to get by. David Carr -i think carr is far from a bust. having nfl ticket, i have watched a lot of his games and he does very well when he has more than 2 seconds to throw the ball. Joey Harrington-only had 1 great year in the weak Pac-10, but he has looked good at times. he will never prove to be worthy of a top 10 pick, but he could become a solid backup or servicable starter in the future. Eli Manning-he has been a major success. Alex Smith-way to early to judge yet. was not rated nearly as high as leinart. had only 1 great year and 1 good year in WAC or Pac-10(can't remember what conference Utah is in right now) both are weak conferences. with a good offensive line, good running game, and continued growth of lloyd he could be very good. |
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Eli a major success??? What???? |
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the logic I hear is that taking a QB in the first round is too risky. My logic is that the whole friggin draft is a risk no matter what place they are taken in. You pick according to your need or the highest graded person at your pick and cross your fingers and hope that he doesn't get hurt, hold out for another team, or gets busted selling crack. Yeah we need a lot of posistions filled but we get no refunds or exchanges if he is a bust. Just the nature of the game. That being said no-one wants brooks or Bouman to start next year and the QB's we've seen this year are worth taking the chance on for a #2 pick. Stop talking your way out of a high pick, grow some nuts and take a francise QB. Hell we can still pick up another QB in a later round just for bakup purposes.
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The draft is a risk u are right. A franchise QB is always great but if we go that route we are going to have to very aggressive in FA and tweek the offensive line abit to protect the $$$$ on that QB. That maybe why the Tags is out to give us all the FA we can get and minimize the cap penility. I am for picks and defense but i do not see the Tags allowing it. Tommy Boy is Tags #1 b**ch right now. POSITIVE PUBLICITY is Tags #1 goal for the saints and for the NFL. He has to clean-up Tommy boy's mess from this year. Tag does not like what Tommy Boy has done to the NFL image. Amazing how quick he put an end to the moving out and all of a sudden the Dome will be ready for the 2006 opener. Must have an out of state contractor to do the work. :D
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yeah grow some nuts you pansies...hahahahaha nice post lynwood i absolutly agree.
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eli has been a major success for being in his 2nd year of starting. he helped to take his team to the playoffs in his second year. if lwould be very happy if leinart had the same success in his 2nd year and leinart is ranked higher than eli was when he came out. well atleast i scored an 80% in your book and maybe a 90% if you agree eli helped manage his team to a playoff birth. |
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The Super Bowl's Starting Quarterbacks (*) = age at time of Super Bowl I - 1/15/67 Bart Starr, Green Bay Packers - Alabama (*33) Len Dawson, Kansas City Chiefs - Purdue (31) II - 1/14/68 Bart Starr, Green Bay Packers - Alabama (34) Daryle Lamonica, Oakland Raiders - Notre Dame (26) III - 1/12/69 Joe Namath, New York Jets - Alabama (25) Earl Morrall, Baltimore Colts - Michigan State (34) IV - 1/11/70 Len Dawson, Kansas City Chiefs - Purdue (34) Joe Kapp, Minnesota Vikings - California (31) V - 1/17/71 Johnny Unitas, Baltimore Colts - Louisville (37) Craig Morton, Dallas Cowboys - California (27) VI - 1/16/72 Roger Staubach, Dallas Cowboys - Navy (29) Bob Griese, Miami Dolphins - Purdue (26) VII - 1/14/73 Bob Griese, Miami Dolphins - Purdue (27) Bill Kilmer, Washington Redskins - UCLA (33) VIII - 1/13/74 Bob Griese, Miami Dolphins - Purdue (28) Fran Tarkenton, Minnesota Vikings - Georgia (33) IX - 1/12/75 Terry Bradshaw, Pittsburgh Steelers - Louisiana Tech (26) Fran Tarkenton, Minnesota Vikings - Georgia (34) X - 1/18/76 Terry Bradshaw, Pittsburgh Steelers - Louisiana Tech (27) Roger Staubach, Dallas Cowboys - Navy (33) XI - 1/9/77 Ken Stabler, Oakland Raiders - Alabama (31) Fran Tarkenton, Minnesota Vikings - Georgia (36) XII - 1/15/78 Roger Staubach, Dallas Cowboys - Navy (35) Craig Morton, Denver Broncos - California (34) XIII - 1/21/79 Terry Bradshaw, Pittsburgh Steelers - Louisiana Tech (30) Roger Staubach, Dallas Cowboys - Navy (36) XIV - 1/20/80 Terry Bradshaw, Pittsburgh Steelers - Louisiana Tech (31) Vince Ferragamo, Los Angeles Rams - California, Nebraska (25) XV - 1/25/81 Jim Plunkett, Oakland Raiders - Stanford (33) Ron Jaworski, Philadelphia Eagles - Youngstown State (29) XVI - 1/24/82 Joe Montana, San Francisco 49ers - Notre Dame (25) Ken Anderson, Cincinnati Bengals - Augustana (IL) (32) XVII - 1/30/83 Joe Theismann, Washington Redskins - Notre Dame (33) David Woodley, Miami Dolphins - Louisiana State (24) XVIII - 1/22/84 Jim Plunkett, Los Angeles Raiders - Stanford (36) Joe Theismann, Washington Redskins - Notre Dame (34) XIX - 1/20/85 Joe Montana, San Francisco 49ers - Notre Dame (28) Dan Marino, Miami Dolphins - Pittsburgh (23) XX - 1/26/86 Jim McMahon, Chicago Bears - BYU (26) Tony Eason, New England Patriots - Illinois (26) XXI - 1/25/87 Phil Simms, New York Giants - Morehead State (32) John Elway, Denver Broncos - Stanford (26) XXII - 1/31/88 Doug Williams, Washington Redskins - Grambling (32) John Elway, Denver Broncos - Stanford (27) XXIII - 1/22/89 Joe Montana, San Francisco 49ers - Notre Dame (32) Boomer Esiason, Cincinnati Bengals - Maryland (27) XXIV - 1/28/90 Joe Montana, San Francisco 49ers - Notre Dame (33) John Elway, Denver Broncos - Stanford (29) XXV - 1/27/91 Jeff Hostetler, New York Giants - West Virginia (29) Jim Kelly, Buffalo Bills - Miami (FL) (30) XXVI - 1/26/92 Mark Rypien, Washington Redskins - Washington State (30) Jim Kelly, Buffalo Bills - Miami (FL) (31) XXVII - 1/31/93 Troy Aikman, Dallas Cowboys - Oklahoma, UCLA (26) Jim Kelly, Buffalo Bills - Miami (FL) (32) XXVIII - 1/30/94 Troy Aikman, Dallas Cowboys - Oklahoma, UCLA (27) Jim Kelly, Buffalo Bills - Miami (FL) (33) XXIX - 1/29/95 Steve Young, San Francisco 49ers - BYU (33) Stan Humphries, San Diego Chargers - NE Louisiana (29) XXX - 1/28/96 Troy Aikman, Dallas Cowboys - Oklahoma, UCLA (29) Neil O'Donnell, Pittsburgh Steelers - Maryland (29) XXXI - 1/26/97 Brett Favre, Green Bay Packers - Southern Mississippi (27) Drew Bledsoe, New England Patriots - Washington State (24) XXXII - 1/25/98 John Elway, Denver Broncos - Stanford (37) Brett Favre, Green Bay Packers - Southern Mississippi (28) XXXIII - 1/31/99 John Elway, Denver Broncos - Stanford (38) Chris Chandler, Atlanta Falcons - Washington (33) XXXIV - 1/30/00 Kurt Warner, St. Louis Rams - Northern Iowa (28) Steve McNair, Tennessee Titans - Alcorn State (26) XXXV - 1/28/01 Trent Dilfer, Baltimore Ravens - Fresno State (28) Kerry Collins, New York Giants - Penn State (28) XXXVI - 2/3/02 Tom Brady, New England Patriots - Michigan (24) Kurt Warner, St. Louis Rams - Northern Iowa (30) XXXVII - 1/26/03 Brad Johnson, Tampa Bay Buccaneers - Florida State (34) Rich Gannon, Oakland Raiders - Delaware (37) XXXVIII - 2/1/04 Tom Brady, New England Patriots - Michigan (26) Jake Delhomme, Carolina Panthers - Louisiana-Lafayette (29) XXXVIX - 2/6/05 Tom Brady, New England Patriots - Michigan (27) Donovan McNabb, Philadelphia - Syracuse (28) Remember guys there are 78 names on this list and four of them Elway, Plunkett, Aikman and Bradshaw were drafted #1. I don't think the odds are in favor of anyone drafting a QB at #1 or #2. |
qb can be found in later rounds
This is a reply to anyone who says that there are no franchise qb's outside the 1st round. I hope I am not repeating anyone else's post...Matt Hasselbeck (6th round), Marc Bulger (6th round), Tom Brady (6th round), Jack Delhomme (undrafted), and trent green (8th round, not making it up). Interestingly enough, two of those qbs were drafted or signed by the saints as rookies.
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RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: re: papz
chermy,
i love you and all, but you are a little misguided here. talent evaluation and the draft has changed a lot over the past 40years. if you look at the recent superbowls there are a bunch of those little happy faces (6 since '98). saying that, i don't think getting to a superbowl is a good judge of the success of a qb. collins made it to a superbowl and he is trash. marino only made it to 1 superbowl and he is one of the all time greats. making it to a super bowl is an overall team effort. we should not pick leinart because he alone will take us to a superbowl, but because he can manage and lead an offense to a very successful season. i agree with you defense is a VITAL part of a great team. right now we have a better than average defense and with a little coaching and a few small pickups we can be a top 10 defense. see my other post for that. |
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There are alot of us that believe just what you are saying. |
RE: qb can be found in later rounds
i agree with you 623 there are some good qbs in late rounds.
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:airguitar: |
RE: qb can be found in later rounds
well cherm it also takes a good o line along with that great d. then you are as they say in buisness
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RE: qb can be found in later rounds
And how about you look up the percentage of quarterbacks drafted after the first round that become successful. I would bet you 100 bucks that the percentage of QBs drafted after the first round that are successful is DRASTICALLY lower than the number of successful quarterbacks drafted in the first round.
I did exaggerate on the success rate of first round QBs, I'll give you that one T-R. However, that wasn't the point I was trying to make. The point is that, out of all the QBs drafted in later rounds, only a few become successful, while QBs drafted in the first round have a higher success rate. The only reason people think that later round QBs have a good chance of becoming successful is because you hear about all of the success stories, but you never hear about the hundreds of guys who get drafted later in the draft and become permanent backups or drop out after a year or two. Would you agree? |
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you have said the exact same things about VY.... so whats ur answer for that.... |
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VY is no Michael Vick that's for sure. Probably the same arm strength, but Vick could burn VY any day of the week
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RE: qb can be found in later rounds
And actually Pak that's one of the reasons why I don't want VY is because he's not as fast, not nearly as elusive as Vick, and doesn't have the suddenness that Vick has that allows him to beat defenders to the corner like no other player in the NFL can. But hey pak, don't take my word for it, listen to an NFL scout:
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RE: qb can be found in later rounds
he is also a much better passer then MV at this stage of his career.....
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RE: qb can be found in later rounds
I will give you that... but the reason why MV is so successful is because of his speed. Would you agree with that? And if that's the kind of player VY is (especially in that option offense that he played in at UT), then he's going to have some trouble. VY is a very good player Pak, anybody who says otherwise doesn't have any sense. But I would still take Leinart because I believe pocket passers have a better chance of success in this league. That's my opinion. You might have a different one, and I respect that. I just don't believe that VY will be able to run in the pros like he did in college.
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RE: qb can be found in later rounds
True true. The majority of QBs in the league are white and pocket passers, and that could skew the success rates of pocket passers in comparison to scramblers. However, most guys who are great runners aren't very good passers. Guys like Donovan McNabb and Steve McNair in the late 90s, early 2000s can be very successful because they have the ability to run AND pass. But both of those guys were better passers (at least in terms of mechanics if not statistics) than VY when they came out of college. Maybe VY, with the help of an NFL coach, can drastically improve his passing. But if he can't, I don't think he'll be successful.
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What, you don't know how to spell retard, retard?? You said "successful', not "could be good in the right situation", retard... Oh, yeah, the Pro Bowl.. again, Trent Dilfer had a better QB rating than Vick... matter of fact, I count 24 QB's with better QB rating that 8-8 Vick, retard. Tiki Barber lead the Giants, retard... Byron Leftwich a top tier QB in the league??? Top of what??? Oh, passing efficiencvy.. yet Vick is 25... is Vick a top tier also??? Retard... Get your dumb arguments straight before you go hiding personal insults in your posts, 'tard. |
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So Vick, Eli, and Byron. What do they share in common? They have led their teams to the playoffs at some time in the last two years. They're still in the league, starting, and leading their teams to the playoffs. A QB CAN make a difference. |
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vince young same arm strength as vick not ina million years. vicks arm strength is pretty awesome
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RE: Re: RE: qb can be found in later rounds
Amen, Vick has a cannon. Young has one thing Vick doesn't though. Prototypical NFL Quarterback size
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true that he does buck but he also isn't as fast as vick though either
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Agreed. Here's my theory on Young. It scares me the Saints may take him, but it scares me we may have to play him. Maybe the biggest high risk/high reward pick in the last ten years
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quite posible.
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Young is a big man can run and can throw better than vick.
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that is just silly that he can run better then vick. nor can he throw better. maybe maybe mnore accurate but doesn't have nearly the arm strength. vick is 10 times faster
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