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james alder on trade.........

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; We have got to draft Brick, we we trade down, he is ours, even if we don't trade down I'd say its a safer bet drafting Brick. We have got to protect Brees and get blocking for Deuce or we ...

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Old 04-07-2006, 08:53 PM   #11
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We have got to draft Brick, we we trade down, he is ours, even if we don't trade down I'd say its a safer bet drafting Brick. We have got to protect Brees and get blocking for Deuce or we are going to stink up the joint just as bad as last year. I think with new defense scheme and going D in the second round ONLY if Mangold isn't there...
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Old 04-08-2006, 02:15 AM   #12
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I think that we have to draft Young. He'll be the only one able to escape the avalanche of defenders mowing down our o-line. Let someone else overpay for D'Brick, there are 5-6 high quality linemen, including 3 Trojans, that could be available for the 34th pick.
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Old 04-08-2006, 04:43 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by xan
I think that we have to draft Young. He'll be the only one able to escape the avalanche of defenders mowing down our o-line. Let someone else overpay for D'Brick, there are 5-6 high quality linemen, including 3 Trojans, that could be available for the 34th pick.
Now this is the kind of optimism that I like to hear.

I don't know if I'm more surprised that you think we should pick a QB or that you think it should be Young. If you think our QB will be dodging the D all day maybe we should've just kept Brooks....he was pretty adept at running for his life. A smart QB can either make quick checkdowns or throw the ball away, which negates having to run. Brooks didn't have those smarts, and Young doesn't either.

You spend enough high picks at O-line and it pays off. Remember our o-line in '00 with Roaf, Naeole, and Turley???? It's called building your team, not trying to find a quick fix. Young makes zero sense for us at #2.

Overpay for D'Brick? Geez I don't know what to tell you....he'll be paid what a top 5 pick should be paid. I don't see how that's overpaying. It's not free agency. There's a model that they follow for draft picks.
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Old 04-08-2006, 02:10 PM   #14
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Jaamal Brown was a top pick and the 1st lineman selected last year, ahead of Alex Barron, two of the 4 linemen taken in the 1st round and of the 9 taken on the first day. Both were pretty ordinary, though better than average. Brown had his fair share of false starts, holds, missed assignments and didn't perform well as a road grader for the running game. In 2004, there were three linemen taken in the 1st round, including #2 pick Robert Gallery, who has not acquited himself well because he can't handle speed rush and has allowed many many many sacks in his two years. Jordan Gross seems to be the only 1st round pick in the last three drafts who've performed to hype, a paltry 1 for 9 ratio of impact.

There's always a risk with every player, but there seems to be a relative consensus that you should draft the higher skill players early and take your shots on o-linemen in the later rounds. Young men that size take quite a while to learn the fundamentals of the seriously high speed sumo wrestling that has become the trenches of an NFL game. I'm sure we all criticize Gandy for his shortcomings (there were MANY), but 13 years is an exceptionally long time to be in the NFL as a lineman, he had to play and grade out highly for most of his career to last that long and command that kind of salary this deep into his career; and a former #1 pick (15th by the Raiders). But there seems to be just as many failures of 1st round selections of linemen as there are quarterbacks. Turley was more harm than good (I did like his "protect at all cost attitude" on the field, but he wasn't reliable) at a 7 pick and was out of NO in 5 years and football in 6 (traded for Gandy, no less).

The Saints haven't had the opportunity to select a skill player this high in more years than I can remember, and there are several seemingly all world skill players to be had. Why waste such an opportunity on a lineman, AGAIN, when all of our "star" players are coming off of career threatening injuries and may never play to their previous levels?

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Old 04-08-2006, 02:15 PM   #15
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I mis-typed when I said "traded for Gandy". Gandy was signed, considered to be an upgrade, though later in his career, then Turley was traded to the Rams for a 2nd round pick (either Henderson or C. Watson, I can't recall.)
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Old 04-08-2006, 02:54 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by xan
Jaamal Brown was a top pick and the 1st lineman selected last year, ahead of Alex Barron, two of the 4 linemen taken in the 1st round and of the 9 taken on the first day. Both were pretty ordinary, though better than average. Brown had his fair share of false starts, holds, missed assignments and didn't perform well as a road grader for the running game. In 2004, there were three linemen taken in the 1st round, including #2 pick Robert Gallery, who has not acquited himself well because he can't handle speed rush and has allowed many many many sacks in his two years. Jordan Gross seems to be the only 1st round pick in the last three drafts who've performed to hype, a paltry 1 for 9 ratio of impact.

There's always a risk with every player, but there seems to be a relative consensus that you should draft the higher skill players early and take your shots on o-linemen in the later rounds. Young men that size take quite a while to learn the fundamentals of the seriously high speed sumo wrestling that has become the trenches of an NFL game. I'm sure we all criticize Gandy for his shortcomings (there were MANY), but 13 years is an exceptionally long time to be in the NFL as a lineman, he had to play and grade out highly for most of his career to last that long and command that kind of salary this deep into his career; and a former #1 pick (15th by the Raiders). But there seems to be just as many failures of 1st round selections of linemen as there are quarterbacks. Turley was more harm than good (I did like his "protect at all cost attitude" on the field, but he wasn't reliable) at a 7 pick and was out of NO in 5 years and football in 6 (traded for Gandy, no less).

The Saints haven't had the opportunity to select a skill player this high in more years than I can remember, and there are several seemingly all world skill players to be had. Why waste such an opportunity on a lineman, AGAIN, when all of our "star" players are coming off of career threatening injuries and may never play to their previous levels?
Nice, but you failed to justify a move like picking YOuNG at #2. Whatever your reasoning for picking an o-lineman later, that doesn't necessarily make a case for Young. Hey as far as "star" power as you keep saying....I'm all for drafting Bush, but he won't be there. We have a QB so that's out. And no o-linemen...hmmmmm....you just made a case for MARIO WILLIAMS....or A.J. Hawk if we trade down.

Why "waste" a pick on a lineman??? Because all great teams' foundation is at the line. Look at the Seahawks and Steelers. You don't build a championship team off of a ho-hum line. And you don't get great players without drafting well. You draft star linemen just like you have to draft star skill position players. Everyone is hit or miss, not just o-linemen. You said that Jamaal Brown was the first lineman out of 9 taken on the first day. That just further emphasizes that you need to get a lineman earier rather than later since the quality drops off so dramatically as you imply. And give Brown a break. It was his first season. In his first game he shut down Julius Peppers. Did you forget about that already? I don't think you're giving him enough credit for playing with so much crap going on around him.

I'm just of the rationale that we've invested HEAViLY in our offense already(Deuce, Horn, Brees) and like it or not our first priority should be to protect these investments as best we can. We have to see what we have before we come to the conclusion that they "won't play to their previous levels".

In the draft we just don't need a QB anymore. There are no WRs or RBs outside of Bush that deserve to be taken in the top 5. So we have to either take D'Brick, Williams or Hawk.
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Old 04-09-2006, 12:52 PM   #17
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Thank God you think that Brees' return to "pro bowl form" is a mortal lock. I'm still waiting on Brees' first real pass since the injury, Deuce's first cut in contact drills since his double ligament knee surgery and Horn's go route hammy/knee reaction before I conclude that we don't need star power. All three are either career threatening or talent diminishing injuries that will require PROOF and not faith that we don't need a backup plan. OK, so it may not be Young, who's mobile enough to deal with the onslaught of rush that will be coming. I'm actually hoping for Lienart. But the Saints have had no luck in drafting immediate impact linemen in the last 7 years. I'm for breaking away from the trend of drafting disappointing linemen.

The offense will go absolutely nowhere if Brees isn't able to return because the only FA's available couldn't get a spot on the Lighthouse for the Blind's JV team. If Deuce is significantly slowed, which 99% of all athletes who have this injury are, then 8 in the box D schemes will be all whoever's in the backfield will see.

Look at it from a business perspective. What will sell more jerseys, tickets and suites, Lienart or Ferguson? When Brees can't make it back, Deuce is ineffective and Horn can't get off the line, and all you got is a project o-lineman to sell to your fan base, the Saints will be in Los Angeles before your choice makes an impact in the NFL.

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Old 04-09-2006, 04:07 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by xan
Thank God you think that Brees' return to "pro bowl form" is a mortal lock. I'm still waiting on Brees' first real pass since the injury, Deuce's first cut in contact drills since his double ligament knee surgery and Horn's go route hammy/knee reaction before I conclude that we don't need star power. All three are either career threatening or talent diminishing injuries that will require PROOF and not faith that we don't need a backup plan. OK, so it may not be Young, who's mobile enough to deal with the onslaught of rush that will be coming. I'm actually hoping for Lienart. But the Saints have had no luck in drafting immediate impact linemen in the last 7 years. I'm for breaking away from the trend of drafting disappointing linemen.

The offense will go absolutely nowhere if Brees isn't able to return because the only FA's available couldn't get a spot on the Lighthouse for the Blind's JV team. If Deuce is significantly slowed, which 99% of all athletes who have this injury are, then 8 in the box D schemes will be all whoever's in the backfield will see.

Look at it from a business perspective. What will sell more jerseys, tickets and suites, Lienart or Ferguson? When Brees can't make it back, Deuce is ineffective and Horn can't get off the line, and all you got is a project o-lineman to sell to your fan base, the Saints will be in Los Angeles before your choice makes an impact in the NFL.
"No luck in drafting immediate impact linemen"?? Really?? You don't think Jammal Brown had an immediate impact??? Well ok that's on you.

While you think I'm being too optimistic, you seem to have taken the totally pessimistic side of things. You already said yourself that you think the line is substandard, so you seem to have the philosophy of "forget it, they won't get any better so let's just get offensive weapons instead'. You say "when" Brees can't make it back and "when" Deuce doesn't make it back according to you. Well we could get your Leinart, but what good will it be if he's getting wacked every other down from the on coming rush because we don't have linemen to protect him? How will he mitigate this any better then Brees, who's a seasoned NFL veteran??? A good line makes your offensive weapons better, not the other way around. Leinart could sell all the jerseys in the world, but if we don't have a solid foundation for him to build around(including a good line) fans will stop believing the hype, and then we'll still be on our way to L.A.
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