I agree with Jimbone. To me the man offered you a challenge and you're just backing away and trying to put attention on the man by calling him gay. The thing with you is all you can come up with is guys just pull up stats and start arguing.


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I have a few thoughts on the Grant subject.

As is fairly well known by now, I have no problem at all with dealing Grant. I'll even give a few reasons in this post. I also have no problem that my good friend WhoDi and I disagree on this particular move. From what I'm reading, WhoDi seems to believe (I don't want to put words in your mouth so please correct me if I'm not reading you correctly) that a team doesn't get better by giving away good players who have a track record of being good on this level. I do not dispute that Grant is good. I don't think he's "great", but he is certainly good.

My take on the Grant situation is this.

1. Grant is entering his contract year. Facing this prospect, the organization has 2 options. We attempt to sign him to a lucrative deal right now. We wait to attempt to sign him and see how he plays after this coming season. If we chose to make a run at him now, I wouldn't feel comfortable paying him top 7 money after last season and hope he plays up to his price tag. If we wait until next year, we are faced with the ugly options of either franchising him or letting him walk. As a DE, I think he would be silly to at least not test the market. Either option isn't really pleasant to me. I would hate to franchise him. I would even worse hate to see him walk without getting value for him. That value can work for us.

2. This draft has several prospects on defense that I would consider "can't miss". I have no problem at all in staying at #2 and drafting Williams. He could be a bust I suppose, but I like that risk. He has the tools to be the best DE in the NFC. If we could trade down, I'd like that even better. If we took Williams at either 2-5, then I think we're in a win-win scenario. Hawk is also an appealing prospect, but I like Greenway almost as much the dropoff between the two guys ins't that great. I'd be deeply in favor of a scenario that would land us Williams and Greenway in round 1.

3. If we take Williams, we can't keep Grant. This just isn't hard for me to see. No platooning in a contract year. If we take Williams, we need to be on the phone with teams like Green Bay, Denver, the Jets (if we can't land their 2nd 1st rounder). Taking Williams forces us to move Grant at a point when we can get value for him.

4. If we deal Grant, we could end up with 2 quality starters. The math is just too hard for me to overlook. As I see it, Williams (unproven though he is) is no net loss from Grant. Winding up with a player like Greenway would make things that much better and provide us a net gain.

Will I be crushed if we don't take Williams? Not really--unless of course we take some OG from San Fernando Valley A&T that no one's ever heard of at #2. So to summarize, I'm OK with Williams, Ferguson or Hawk at #2, basically in that order, but would be very pleased with any of those guys. If we trade down, don't go so far as to miss one of the elite prospects.

So I disagree with my friend WhoDi, but politely so. I think I understand where he's coming from and he has a significant point. It's hard to trade away a proven "good" player on a maybe. I think my overall take at this point is that I'm willing to given Payton's talent evaluation the benefit of the doubt. Were we talking about Haslett wanting to trade Grant, I'd be violently opposed to it. Haslett could screw up rubbing suntan oil on the Hawaiian Tropic Girls.

I agree with BMG. I think Grant is a good player, just a tad over-hyped these days. Everyone in the draft is unproven and there is no sure things, but chances are better to hit the big one with these guys. With Williams, Bush, Hawk, or Brick. Not only are we looking for good players, but dominant ones. I am not saying that they will all be dominant, but have good chances

BMG, I still disagree, but that was like a breath of fresh air. Finally someone who can generally articulate what they wanna say, and doesn't need to follow anyone into two or three threads to make the same point. I applaud you my friend. Well done.

Re: RE: i pose a ? to you guys
 

This is coming from a guy who lobbied hard for Houston Nutt to take over post-Haslett.

I'm not going to get into the whole rookie debate thing, but I do think Mario Williams will be a good NFL DE. That said, DE is not a position of need for this team considering that we already have two really good ones. Yes, Mario Williams will probably be a beast of a DE, but don't we need to address positions at DT (this would help the two good DE's we have), LB (which has been a weak part of the defense for some time now), OT (since we really have only one quality starter in Jamaal Brown), CB (besides McKenzie, who else do we have?), & C (who'll play that now with Bentley gone?). :wink:

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Charles Grant is good. I like him. But I sure he hope he shows that consistency he showed from past years. I love knowing that he is going to produce somewhere between 2.5 and 12 sacks. Refreshing.

lol... nice....

Here's my deal with Mario Williams:

The guy is an absolute freak, a lá Julius Peppers. Athletically, he's one of the most gifted players to come around in a long time. Nobody can overlook that fact, and if they try to, then they're just being dumb.

But here's my beef. The guy just doesn't try as hard as he should. He's been known to take plays off. I know that might not seem like a big deal, but the best defensive linemen have motors that never stop! With a draft bust like Sullivan still on our roster, I am a little wary of ANY defensive linemen that takes plays off, no matter how good he is.

Another thing that I've noticed about him is that people love to talk about his 14.5 sacks. Yeah, that's pretty good. But just think about this for a minute. Against the premiere teams that NC State played last year (Florida State, Boston College, Georgia Tech, Clemson, Virginia Tech, and North Carolina) Super Mario totaled 1 solo sack and 1 assisted sack. That also includes a game against Georgia Tech where he didn't even register a tackle. I know you might think I'm reading too much into this, but what I see is a guy who just doesn't show up for the big games.

So where did all of those sacks come from? 12 of them came from such stellar programs such as Wake Forest (4-7), Southern Miss (7-5), Maryland (5-6), and Middle Tennessee State (4-7).

Here's what I'm thinking, this guy is really good. I'd like to have him in black and gold. But would I rather have him instead of AJ Hawk? Hell no. Not only does Williams not provide help for a position of need, he also doesn't seem to excel against big-time competition. I think the only reason draft analysts are so willing to blow him is that he had amazing combine results and is very gifted athletically. However, I just would rather have a guy like Hawk who not only can fill a need, but also is known to never take a play off.

Well said Deuce. I also noticed if you look at his highlight package, it's against some teams you can't name. But if you look at Hawk's it's against UT, the national champs. Just an example of a big time player stepping up in a big game, and another shrinking.

I dont want Mario Williams. I would rather Hawk, Ferguson, Bush or even Leinart. I was just saying that Charles Grant is not a top 10 DE. I think the mindset the team needs to have going into the draft is to pick a player that helps us in a position where we are the weakest. Tackle, LB, DT, CB, WR, QB.

Now THAT I agree with, except the Grant part. Ok, maybe he's only top 15, but ONLY cause of the down year. Anywho, my first choices are LB(Hawk), DT(trade down for Bunkley or Ngata), T(Ferguson). I in no way wanna see Mario's name called for us wherever we select.

If, and i am stressing the if, we trade down to say 6...and ferguson and hawk are gone, then take Mario Williams. You get great value and it opens up doors for you to keep your DE's fresh and move them around to find weaknesses on the other team. But i do not want the number 2 pick to be kept by the saints and have them draft Williams.

No way in hell Mario Williams is there at 6. He's supposedly the top player on some teams' boards. I've heard that him and Reggie Bush are the two that Houston is thinking about.

You dont think that it is possible for the first 5 picks to be:

-Bush
-Leinart
-Young
-Ferguson
-Hawk

That is a definite possibility.