I think you missed my point, Whodi. I like Stallworth. I would not even ponder trading him just for the sake of trading. My point from the beginning of this thread is that we have need areas I think we could address by trading him (CB, LB, DT, or heck-even another safety :D . The last one was a joke by the way). Now if we could get a talent for him at one of those needs positions, I'm all for it. If not, no way do I want to trade him. His stock is high on the trade market now & this could be our chance to bolster the defense. I'm not saying Haas or Colston can be Stallworth right away (although something about Colston makes my hair stand up when I think of his upside). And...yes, I read the part about Colston having to learn different routes. The guy played at Hofstra for Christ's sakes. I doubt very seriously that they had a complex offense.
Here's a quote from West coach Dennis Franchione after the East-West Shrine Game.......

That quote is against college guys, but point taken. Still, I don't really wanna go into the season counting too heavily on some undrafted guy. I can't get too excited about that no matter how much good stuff I read. I can get excited about Stallworth catching balls from Brees though. I do dig what you are saying, and I have said the same thing, if we get a starter caliber player at a need position for Stallworth, we may have to go for it. I am a big Devery fan as well and I hope he can step in and be the deep threat we need. But basing trading Donte on Colston's "potential," ugh. I like Haas though. And I am not trying to knock Colston. Hopefully we just keep Donte and don't have to worry about it, but if we trade him, the player we get in return must be starter quality. And hopefully will be on defense. And won't be a DE or safety.

Haas & Colston were both drafted players. Haas in the 6th & Colston in the 7th, but I do understand your point. :D

I knew we drafted Haas but Colston was our second 7th round pick? Good as undrafted. :wink:

You're just hatin' on my boy aren't you? :wink: It's o.k......in a couple of years, he'll have you converted into a believer. No kool-aid needed. :D

I WAS HOPING STALLWORTH FOR DIET PEPSI MACHINE!! (just a thought)

:nutkick: JOHNNY CAGE WINS!!

I really don't understand this love affair with Stallworth. Geez he's not irreplaceable talent. I don't want him to go but if he does I won't lose any sleep over it. Could he have a breakout season next season? Absolutely, but I could name about 5 other recievers on the cusp of "breaking out" themselves that could easily come in and replace Stallworth and the team would do no worse. He's not a special talent, not a #1 talent IMO. I've never seen him make any spectacular catches, and he doesn't go up the middle at all. Again....so you guys don't misunderstand me, I'm not in favor of trading him at all costs, but he's absolutely replaceable. As far as #2 recievers go, he's probably near the middle of the pack, maybe a little better. I counted 12 #2 recievers that I would take over him and at least 2 #3s.

I can't think of many recievers in recent memory that were mediocre with one QB and were outstanding with another. I think what we've seen from Stallworth thus far is more or less what we're gonna get.

nor can i. i don't recall horn having too many problems catching balls from ab.........
a good reciever is suppose to catch the ball, if it is catchable, and in a lot of cases, catch it if it's not catchable.........why did we draft donte in the first place?
because he was a burner with the threat to score from anywhere on the field. however, donte is not a possession reciever.........
and lord knows, we need some........horn, who is a possession reciever and probably the best reciever the saints have ever had, has lost a step, but would i trade him? no........but the times they are a changing.........we will have new faces everywhere and this includes the recievers position...............smitty

2 Points

1) I do not consider Brooks a legit NFL QB, so my verdict on Stallworth is still out.

2) I wouldn't mind D.P. MACHINE on our team, either.

Excellent points ghandi. Well, at least the first one. :wink:

2 more points:

1) Horn got 90% of ABs passes thrown his way

2) Horn led the team in drops the last couple of seasons, and just being hurt last year prob prevented him from doing it again. Now, being the recipient of so many balls his way, is Horn just butter fingers or could a garbage QB have had anything to do with his drops? Take your pick.

Anyone who says Donte hasn't done anything special is not watching Saints games or something. River City Relay? It was Donte making THREE defendes miss to get that started. Guess who has the Saints rookie record for receiving TDs? Donte, in a season cut short by injury. Stop hatin.

Donte has as much talent as any WR in the league. I will admit that. But can you honestly blame AB for him not progressing the way he should? I am not going to say that isnt a factor, but the point i am trying to make is in his entire career, he has never had back to back games where he has had at least 70 yards receiving. What's that? That cant be ALL AB's fault. I want the Saints to keep him, but i wont lose any sleep if they trade him. Thats why i say if he breaks out this year, its for the money...thats my opinion.

Link please.

......................... :awe: That's plain nasty.

Previous arguments. No links. You can do a site search though.

http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/index.asp

Although you can go to this site, and look individually at Stallworth, and Joe if you type their names in. Joe had more drops than Donte in 2003 and 2004, and they don't have a drops record for 2002. Pathon did tie Joe in 2003 for the team lead in drops with 5 though.

And now we're haters again. No one's "hating" just because their viewpoint doesn't coincide with yours. I'm not trying to make Stallworth into something he's not, that's all. Are we seriously using a freak play as a testimony to Stallworth's talent???? Come on now. Maybe if we ran the play every game then we could get full return out of the 13th overall pick in the 2002 draft. Being that high of a pick he should be making 3 defenders miss every game. Whenever I see him he has average agility. Now I have come to accept Stallworth for what he is, which is an average #2 reciever. What could he have possibly shown at any time in his career to make you think he is better than average. And no one cares what Donte did in 2002, not NFL execs at least.


Are we ready to say that Stallworth is as good as

Reggie Wayne(or Brandon Stokley for that matter)
Marty Booker
T.J. Hoshamanzadeh
Eric Moulds
Rod Smith
Jerry Porter
Terry Glenn
Amani Toomer
Keyshawn Johnson
Joey Galloway
Larry Fitzgerald
Issac Bruce
Nate Burleson

Anyone that can give me evidence that Stallworth is as good as or better than any of the above listed #2 recievers please stand up. If not, then that puts him a little bit above the middle of the pack. And a good portion of these recievers have been traded at least ONCE in their careers. And he wants to be a #1 reciever?????? He is what his is....an average to slightly above average #2 reciever.

Wait, where did you get info that he wanted to be a number one receiver? You reading his mind now or using you own not so "keen" observations skills?

As far as your list, LMAO!!! Donte is easily better than Glenn, Porter, Moulds, Toomer, Galloway, Booker, Burleson. And Brandon Stokley firmly makes you a hater if you honestly believe he is better than Stallworth. Keyshawn was a number one his whole career. Wayne plays with Peyton freaking Manning and has Harrison on the other side. TJ has Chad Johnson on the other side and has Carson Palmer. Fitzgerald is clearly a number one receiver. Isaac Bruce was a number one his whole career, but Donte killed him stat wise last year. And Rod Smith is clearly a number one receiver. So what point did you prove by making a list with number one receivers, guys who play with QBs CLEARLY far superior to anything Donte has ever had, and guys who Donte is better than? Prob best not to get football info from Madden 2006.

i remember reading that somewhere to... he was sayin it to a writer or something... dont remember... it was a few months back if i do remember correctly

I'd like to see a link to that and see what kinda context that was in. But my question then would be, who would want a wide receiver that DOESN'T want to be a number one? Would anyone want a wide receiver who strives to just be a #3? I'd still like to see him saying that though.

No kiddin'?



8)

How great it would be, if you found something useful to say. :wink:

I'm gonna nail you most every time your attacks take a personal tone. No reason for it, really. We're all Saints fans with differing opinions.

Hope you found that useful. Good day.




8)

Easily better than Glenn, Porter, Moulds, Toomer, Galloway, Booker, Burleson....and WHY??? Because you said so??? Oh ok....it's the truth then. I could use some clarification though. What can you show me that even could suggest that Stallworth is "clearly better than these guys??

Look at the results buddy. All of them have amassed better stats than Stallworth. But a silly thing like RESULTS probably don't matter to you either. You MUST be saying that all of their success is attributed to their QB then. So lets see some of the QBs these guys have had throwing to them.

Sage Rosenfels
AJ Feely
Kerry Collins
Brian Griese
Chad Hutchinson
J.P. Losman
Kelly Holcomb
Rob Johnson
Rex Grossman
BILLY JOE HOBERT HAHAHA

Sorry but I'd take AB over these hacks any day. Moulds has had NO ONE since Jim Kelly at the beginning of his career, still put up great numbers, yet Stallworth is clearly better than him?? What a joke.

But yeah....AB has been holding him down all of this time. Some of these guys have had pure HACKS throwing them passes, yet they still managed to put up decent stats. Stokley was thrown in there for humor, but I guess you didnt think it was too funny. Wayne may have Peyton but he could come to THIS team and be a #1 reciever. Stallworth doesn't come close to comparing to Wayne. As for the others we can sub in Boldin for Fitzgerald then, Torry Holt for Issac Bruce, Javon Walker for Rod Smith and we still have players that are superior to Stallworth. You've made no points that would suggest Stallworth is "clearly better" than these players, just attempted to ridicule what i've pointed out to mask your complete lack of any evidence to support your claims whatsoever. Not your best work.

Wait, so you quoted "previous arguments", and tried to make a joke, and now it's about "attacks taking a personal tone?" You're a fraud. Hope you found THAT useful. :roll:

cut that crap out or ill end it myself

Again, you can't be serious. Putting aside the fact this team played 16 road games last year and was dismantled by a hurricane, I would take half those QBs over Aaron Brooks, but I am wondering where you got that fraudulent list of QBs. Are you talking about all time, or last year? I am talking about last year. Who did Rosenfels QB? Frerotte was the starter in Miami. Feely? Um, no again, Frerotte. I'd take him over AB. Collins? I'd take him over AB. Griese? He only played 5 games last year, his team was 4-1, and i'd take him every day of the week over AB. Hutchinson? Who was he QB for? Booker plays in Miami. Don't get confused. He only played 5 games in Chi, and Booker was already in Miami. Donte's RESULTS killed Moulds last year, in a hurricane ravaged season, so Losnamn's name is on there why? ABs passer rating was about as bad as his. Holcomb and Grossman? Take them over AB every day of the week. So what did you prove?

And wayne on this team with AB, would be Stallworth. And Stallworth in Indy with Peyton and those coaches, would be Wayne. See how easy that is, easy as saying Wayne would come here and be a number one. Had he played his whole career HERE though, he would be Donte and vice versa. Sub Boldin for Fitzgerald? Boldin is a number one receiver. Went to the pro bowl as a rookie. Oops. Holt it is a number one receiver. I thought your point was to compare Donte to number two receivers. Did you change that? Don't confuse yourself. Javon Walker is also a number one receiver. So are you comparing Donte to twos or ones, since your first point was he was an average two. You have no proff of that, so you wanna say he is an average two compared to ones? LMAO!!! Ok. Slick, but not effective. Try again?

You can play those games if you want...but if you think that Stallworth is comparable in talent to Reggie Wayne then there's no point in going foward. I can't respect any opinion that would come from someone who would claim this. I refuse to believe that you actually think this though. Wayne plays with Peyton Manning. So does Marvin Harrison. So did Brad Pyatt. Point?

Apparently I'm talking about all time with respect to my QB listing, which enforces my point even more. Who cares about one season??? HOWEVER if you wanna play the one season card now, Stallworth was ranked 24th out of all NFL recievers in yardage and 26th in receiving TDs, and that was last year getting the lion's share of the throws his way. What about those numbers is special. Why is he better than any of the WRs I listed??? It's sweet that you believe in him, but he has to put up numbers in the NFL, not excuses like you're making for him.

Other WRs have had a much more tumultous QB situation than Stallworth, yet put up stats better than his. QB starters on other teams, such as Miami, Chicago, and Buffalo have been interchangable pretty much since the turn of the century. I listed those QBs because they are pertinent to the arguement I'm making.

A team has a number 1 reciever, and a number 2 reciever. That how it is. You can't say that a team has two #1s just because you feel like it. Out of Fitzgerald and Boldin, one of them is a #2. Out of Javon Walker and Rod Smith, one of them is a #2. Been this way ever since there was such a thing as a depth chart. Seems like you're the only one confused here. All teams have a #1 and a #2. Just because Stallworth can't compare to any of those i mentioned(oh except for Issac Bruce and Eric Moulds, who Stallworth is clearly better than....lol that is laughable)you're totally ignoring the concept of a depth chart. Mmmmm ok.

I think that the system that Stallworth has played in and the limitations implicit because of the personnel has played a significant role in his development. Having a "one read" offense that played against 8 in the box defenses would stunt anyone's development. Plus, Deuce's injury made the run offense less effective and put more pressure on that one read system. It didn't appear that the system had "hot reads" or a construct of check-offs to exploit defenses. A #2 receiver is going to be the beneficiary of most of those offensive features. The fact that Stallworth made any progress at all in 2005 says more about his talent and determination. Payton's new offensive scheme, with a smart and effective quarterback and a fearsome running attack will make Stallworth's defensive secondary stretching abilities more attractive and effective as a #2. Can anyone name another starting #2 who's got 4.29 speed and can catch the ball better than his #1 counterpart?

Fair enough, although what makes you think he catches the ball better than Horn?

Look I'm not saying Stallworth is not a legitimate NFL talent. He's average to above average. However, are we forgetting that he IS on the trading block?????? This is fact. Apparently I'm not the only one who thinks he's not a good fit for the team. And I don't get the love affair with him. His world class speed is his greatest asset, and that's enough to keep him employed. He doesn't make spectacular catches. He doesn't outjump people. He doesn't go across the middle. Nothing remarkable. His speed is not replaceable, but if anyone thinks that Amani Toomer or Joey Galloway couldn't come in and do what he's doing....come on.

Terry Glenn did a great job last year with Keyshawn. Of course Keyshawn may have flipped to the 2 spot mid season. I don't know if Glenn is as fast as Stallworth, but he can scoot. Besides his losing focus right at the catch and dropping balls (which I think can be improved and will be if Payton is who we think he is) my biggest problem with Stallworth is not coming back to the ball and standing there like a statue waiting for the ball to make it to him (which is also a fixable problem).

I do think there are teams that would make Stallworth #2 and there are teams that would make him #3. Everyone made good points about other players' situations and results, but Stallworth is a good player and he helps us win. Hopefully he will get the same fire in his belly that Steve Smith has because he has the talent for it. Jerry Stackhouse never became the 2nd Jordan so it may not happen. We should have kept Hakim too, but we can't have verything.

Where do I even begin?

Comparable in talent? Um yeah. Who would you take to bring a player along, Manning and Dungy or Brooks and Haslett? Get real. You said the dude ain;t good as Stokley, got called on it and wanna talk about "repescting someone's opinion?" Priceless. You don't know if you wanna compare him to twos or ones. Get real.

Wanna take a guess as to a possible negative incident that happened for the Saints last season? Why don't you google it. The fact that Stallworth got BETTER under those conditions is testament enough to the talent the dude had. But please, look up "biggest natural disaster in US history" and see if that gives you a small clue as to the conditions the team had to play under last year. And Stallworth was STILL better than the majority of those WRs you listed.


What kinda argument is this? ZERO proof. Let me try" Other wide receivers have put up far worse stats than Stallworth with much better QBs than he has ever played with. Man, that was easy. IS that all there is to making up whatever I want? Nice. :roll:

You're kidding right? Confused again? Were we talking about WR talent? Fitzgerald AND Boldin have #1 talent. Rod Smith is a number one receiver, but because they get Walker, another number one receiver, one of them becomes a #2? Do they have a #1 talent shrinking machine to make one of them a #2? Or do they just have two #1 receivers? Yikes. :shock:

Hey Goldrush, my bad bro. Believe what you want. I don't want this to go on forever. We have different opinions of Stallworth. It's all good.

I have been gone for 4 days and i see this discussion sort of got out of hand. Some valid points, some questionable points...but the one that i pointed out that cannot be disputed...is that he has been in the league for 4 YEARS and has NEVER had back to back games with 70 yards receiving...thats not even a hard number to reach. I would love to hear someone make sense of that. My only negative on Donte is that he isnt consistent enough to be counted on.

INCONCEIVABLE

pretty sporty article on donte

http://www.2theadvocate.com/sports/2841741.html

if donte gets traded...so be it
until then he is still a saint and he can only get better with brees in and AB out
go saints

GREAT article Shrrom, and just what I have been saying. Stall expressed his frustration with an offense the coaching staff tried to FORCE on the players(Haslett), as opposed to tailoring their offense to the talent they had(Payton). Also good was:

Can the speculation please end?

Inconsistent QB? Three TDs one game 4 INTs the next? Focused on Joe Horn WAY too much? Possibly effects the WRs? I dunno....................

We'll all find out when the season is over with. My prediction is he catches 75 balls and racks up 1100 yards. I can definately see him making that Javon Walker type leap this year... a breakout year which will make the release of Horn down the road for cap purposes much easier.

OK, you mean to tell me that it is ok for someone to be in the league for that long and still never have back to back productive games because of his QB. Horn did it game in and game out for years. And as much as i couldnt stand him, not counting last year, AB's numbers were respectable. He hit some high numbers in yards and TD's so he wasnt all bad all the time. You cannot blame all of it on him. Stallworth is more than partly responsible for his lack of production.

Partly resposible? Yes. He was injured A LOT in his first and second years. He personally worked to get over that about the same time his QB decided to start regressing. As far as Joe Horn, again, 90% of the balls going his way says it all. Even if it wasn't that high a %, I don't think you will find anyone who would say AB didn't focus most of the time on Joe. This dude does not know the meaning of the word progression, on the field or off. And when were AB's numbers respectable? A QB who has NEVER in his career completed 60% of his passes does not earn a "respectable" characterizaion from me. I again point to the example of Santana Moss. He leaves the Jets and BLOWS up, different QB, and a system that fits him. Donte now has a different QB, and he is praising the system they are bringing in. Watch the difference.

no way stallworth catches 75 this coming year. there's just too many people to spread the ball around to.
would be a good over/under poll, though. i'd take under.