bush sitting out this yr?
 

Saints | Bush contemplating not signing?
Fri, 21 Jul 2006 21:33:34 -0700

Jason Cole, of Yahoo Sports, reports there has been some talk of New Orleans Saints rookie RB Reggie Bush not signing in time for training camp. Now, a league source said Bush is toying with the idea of sitting out the entire season and going back in the NFL Draft in 2007 if he doesn't get his price. "No player has ever had the kind of leverage that Reggie Bush has right now," the source said. "The Saints made it clear what they were willing to do before and now we'll see if they're going to get there." Two sources said that talks between the Saints and agent Joel Segal have been nearly non-existent. Wednesday, July 19, Mike Ornstein, who is Bush's marketing agent, told the Clarion-Ledger of Jackson, Miss., that he didn't think Bush would be signed in time for camp. Ornstein is not allowed to negotiate contracts, but he is acutely aware of all of Bush's business matters. Bush supposedly has more than $5 million in the bank from multiple endorsement deals Ornstein has negotiated since Bush left the University of Southern California. Bush could probably sit out 2006 and still be a high pick next year.

maybe the texans were afraid of something like this...................

the more i think about it, the scarier it is...............
just imagine anyone having the leverage to renegotiate their contract every year if they have a good year..............i'd have to say don't let the door hit ya if this is gonna be the case............

Looks like another Benson "Bend 'Em Over". Draft Bush......Sell out season tickets.....Screw Reggie, we've already sold out the Dome.

Benson initially wanted to pay Bush whatever he wanted, so I don't see Bush NOT being signed. Maybe they're still trying to clear out some room (releasing Dwight Smith, etc.) to sign him.

However, if Benson does the unthinkable and doesn't get Bush signed, he should release his ownership of the team and never step foot in this state again - unless he wants to float down the Mississippi River in a body bag with a torso that's holier than the Pope.

LOOMIS!!!!

YOU BETTER NOT SCREW THIS UP!

PAY REGGIE #1 MONEY

IT WILL COME BACK TO YOU ON GAME DAYS.

I know I might have an unpopular view on this but if Regggie hold out for #1 money it's the fault of the NFL. The NFL has allowed picks to sit out becuse they didn't want to go to a team that picked them and every year more and more money is going to draft picks. Reggie should get 2nd pick money and if he sits out becuse he refuses, he should be banned from the NFL. He gets more than last years #2 but less than this years #1. That's the way it works.



Now if Benson is trying to short change Bush then Benson should bee ran out of town without taking the team with him. But the cold hard fact is worth it or not Bush was drafted 2nd so that is 2nd pick money.

Needless to say the article could just be speculation and a wishful dreaming by the writer. If Bush sits out and New orleans gets the number 1 pick next year I'd draft him again just out of spite. But who really knows what the heck is going on. Personally I think it would be great to have him but we will do okay without him.

It's just negotiating.

Let's not freak out.

reggie isnt dumb enuff to sit out the whole year because if im not mistaken the team that takes him has to give the saints compensation and teams dont want to do that so they wont take him. and teams that say he's worth the compensation wont take him because they will be afraid that he will do the same thing to them as he did to the saints. so in the end he will end up with no where near as much money because he will be taken probably middle to late first because of the reasons mentioned.

all is well, this is all just the typical negotiation ploys agents pull to try and squeeze more money out at the last minute. Notice Reggie isn't saying anything this time around its his endorsement agent who can't even negotiate the contract. It seems like the FO is just working backwards in their signings by signing the lesser guys first and finising with the biggie in bush. I may be wrong, but I do believe they have a certain allotment to sign the picks with, so it makes sense to sign everyone else and reggie gets whats left right? I still firmly believe he will sign at the 11th hour and be in camp on time. He knows he's valuable and needs to learn, and Payton knows he needs to be in to get the reps.

I dont see how this can be true. How could he donate money to save a school, donate hummers to the city, help rebuild Tad Gormley, and pledge all that money from his jersey sales to Katrina victims, and then say he wont play here? Something in this doesnt make sense and i think this whole thing is being blown out of proportion.

I think Bush is going to get signed. It may take a little while, but he will eventually get a deal done. I do not think Mickey Loomis is stupid enough to let this get ugly. If the stuff that the idiot Yahoo reporter says is true, then you have another reason as for why Michael Bennett is still a Saint.

You are mistaken on this one. If Reggie sits out the year, he goes right into next year's draft, and we get zilch.

Give me a break . . . if he sits out this year and wants to re-enter the draft next year, then he will be out of football for over a year AND have the rep that he could pull the same thing again. Do you really think he would be a 2nd pick next year? Probably not. He will make much more money in a contract this year as a 2nd pick then taking his chances next year. Besides, all those companies paid his endorsement money because he is a known face. Sitting out is not in that equation.

C'mon guys. This is business. He is going to sign. It's all part of the game. The FO tries not to be too compliant and the players' agent does the same. They will meet somewhere when one of the two finally breaks. It's a matter of time. He'll get signed. He wants to be a part of things here and I don't believe that he is trying to screw the system.

As for holding out until next season....GIVE ME A BREAK! He's not that stupid. He'll lose money, respect, and look really greedy to all the teams. He'll sign. It may be after training camp starts, but he will.

this entire story is just mindless fluff. he might not be signed the first day of camp, but he will before the start of preseason and RB is the one position that doesn't suffer much from holdouts.

Bush will sign..IMO

I'm not freaking out. Last year, negotiations got real testy between the Bears and Cedric Benson. But he still signed late Aug/early Sept. Wonder if cap room will be a concern for us? Maybe the Saints need to get into training camp and figure out which players get cut first to see how much $$$ they have to give to Reggie.

talk to me when the opening kick off happens. if he is not signed then I will freak. till then whats up with the rest of guys that really need the reps?

Thank you.

Someone should send Reggie and his team a couple of articles from the Cedric Benson debacle in Chicago last year. At the end of the day Benson lost a season holding out.

Now of course there's a funky twist to all of this. Specifically Mario Williams didn't get a signing bonus. Here's a forum entry that has a copy of the ESPN article outlining the contract:

http://forums.chargers.com/showthread.php?t=31042

Williams has a guaranteed contract with a value between $21 and $27 million depending on the options the Texans choose to pick up. Fully executed it can escalate to a total value of $62 over 6 years.

Now it's interesting to think what both sides are thinking. Note that Alex Smith's signing bonus from last year was only $1 million. But nearly half of his 6 year $49 million contract is guaranteed money.

So at the end of the day both sides have a laundry list of items to work through.

How long is the contract going to be? (5 years or 6?)

What can be voided (none, 1 or 2 years).

What if any signing bonus?

What can the Saints buy back?

How much is guaranteed?

What is the total value of the contract as compared to Smith (6 years, $49M total, $24M guaranteed) and WIlliams (6 years, 2 years voidable but the Texans can buy them back, no signing bonus, $21M to $26M guaranteed).

Then there's the uniqueness of Reggie's situation both on the front that he really is a concensus #1 pick and that he has a unique skill set.

So what are his escalators?

Is he a traditional 1500 yard back? Unlikely.

He may catch 50 balls and score 15-20 overall TDs. How do you quantify that?

Will he play in 80 percent of the offensive plays?

So do you have answers to all of these? I'm pretty sure that neither the Saints or the Bush team do either.

Then neither want to get screwed when Vince Young's contract comes out. If that contract is too close to Williams, then Reggie's team will push for more. If it's closer to Alex Smith's then the Saints may push for less. I seriously doubt that Reggie's contract will get done before Major Harris has had a chance to screw up Vince's first contract almost as bad as Master P did Ricky WIlliams' contract (another Heisman winning RB playing for the Saints. Hmmm) a few years back.

So the best thing to do is chill. It's going to take a minute. Ducks have to fall in a row before any real negotiation begins. Neither side is feeling any real pressure yet. But let that 1st preseason game go by with Reggie sitting at home and the Saints cringing because he isn't on the sidelines, and then you'll see talks heat up.

SFIAH

Deuce held out to his rookie season untill a week or so into camp

Deuce wasn't dubbed the "Savior of the franchise" though. Many think that Bush is somehow going to magically transform this Saints team into a team that can make a deep playoff run.

This season is going to be tough. The NFC South is arguably the best division in the NFL. Some would put the NFC East and the AFC North in that category, and we have 14 of our 16 games against teams in those three divisions.

The team needs to get an air of respectibility this year. Play tough. Win some games. Win any game they are supposed to win and steal a couple they are not.

Bush is going to fit into that equation. But the guy isn't going to be LT his first season. He'll have to grow into that back.

But he does need to be in camp somewhat early in order to be a factor. Whatever contract he signs he is probably stuck with for the next 5 years. So he needs to get his guaranteed money and escalators and voidables that are not impossible to obtain (see Ricky Williams' rookie contract for counter examples).

So like I said, it'll take a minute. Nothing will get done until Vince Young signs anyway. And because of that dude's agent, that contract may be a mess too.

It'll only get intractable if one side or the other asks for something unreasonable. Anything close to Mario WIlliams' money from the Bush camp, or Alex Smith's money from the Saints camp is unreasonable. So the numbers should shake out something like:

- 5 or 6 years w/ 1-2 years voidable

- $53-$54M total value.

- $24-25M guaranteed

- Signing and option bonuses an open question.

- Escalators unclear.

But the two sides are going to have to get the first 3 issues off the table before any real progress will get made.

SFIAH

GM, Subway, Adidas, and Pepsi say he'll play this year.

exactly.
finaly...
a voice of reason. :D

here
 

Here's a nice little nasty pain in the butt article today from WWL...

http://www.wwl.com/Article.asp?id=248442&spid=

Gus Kattengell / WWL Sports Reporter

7-24-06



Report: Bush contemplating sitting out season



Could the unthinkable happen? The savior to be, hold out for the 2006 season and never put on the Black and Gold? A report this weekend suggests such a tactic is being considered from the Heisman winner’s camp. According to the report, league sources stated that Reggie Bush is thinking about sitting out the year and reentering the draft in ’07.



It is believed that Bush is seeking to be paid equally or more than top overall pick Mario Williams of the Houston Texans. Guaranteed money is the key when it comes to NFL contracts and that is undoubtedly what’s keeping this deal from being finalized. Williams got $26.4 million in guaranteed cash, $2.4 million more than San Francisco’s Alex Smith, last year’s top overall pick, who received $24 million. Dolphins running back Ronnie Brown was the 2nd player taken overall in the 2005 NFL Draft. Brown received $19.5 million in guaranteed money. So you might expect under normal circumstances, Bush would likely get between $21 and $24 million. However, Bush has endeared himself to the community, has helped the team sell season tickets at a record level and is the most talked about rookie heading into the 2006 NFL season.



So who holds the cards in the negotiation? Bush’s side can contend that he already has shown what type of impact he can have on an organization. They can understandably argue that sort of marketing weapon for a team shouldn’t come cheaply. The Saints have their tickets sold already, and should have a healthy Deuce McAllister returning, not to mention an upgrade at quarterback in Drew Brees. Bush’s side would argue however, Brees and McAllister are coming off surgeries and that the team shouldn’t risk upsetting their fan base by not signing a player that’s created so much excitement.



One thing is for certain. Saints General Manager Mickey Loomis has a tough task in getting this deal done, especially if Bush’s hold out goes deep into training. So what if the Saints offer Bush the same money Mario Williams received from the Texans, $26 million in guaranteed money and Bush passes?



I do feel that Bush has some leverage, to an extent. If he threatens holding out the season base on a difference of $2-$3 million dollars, then I believe the fans will not be as supportive. Let’s be real, in a community still recovering from Hurricane Katrina, having someone, potential or no potential to help you win games, turns down a contract based on that difference, it will not be supported.



The truth is both sides equally share in the rewards or fallout based on the situation. The Saints and Bush both win if he gets signed and into camp on time. Bush gets his money and local endorsement deals begin to spring up. The fan base gets excited, the organization gets their player on the field and boom there goes the national attention train leaving the station. Draw out this negotiations and the team looks bad for not shelling out money. Bush goes from generous gift giver to being just another greedy athlete. I was on a national radio show this weekend and the host informed me, that the station was polling listeners on their view of Bush. It was over 70% negative, callers were even calling the show, suggesting the Saints let him sit out the year and then he can see just what team would sign him next season.



Let’s just hope this is posturing by the Bush camp, trying to increase the pressure as camp approaches. Hold out, that’s fine. Make your point. Sitting out the entire season is ridiculous and in my mind, would hurt both sides for a long time.

Look, Bush will sign, the Saints can't pay him more money then Mario it's just the way it is, everything is slotted. And to change that will change the way teams draft forever.

I believe it if I hear Reggie say it.

Re: here
 

Coming from a guy who wouldn't sign an autograph for a 6 year old boy with pen in hand........ this does not surprise me. :roll:

Well it's not exactly as cut and dried as "it's slotted." Take a look at the top 4 contract from last year:

http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW...ingchart05.htm

While Brown's, Edwards', and Benson's contracts are each 5 years, they each have a different total value (#3 having the largest) and a different guarantee (with #3 and #4 being the same). At first glance the only clear separation is between Smith at #1 and the others.

Even the signing bonuses are all over the place. Smith only got $1M while Edwards and Benson each got over $3M.

Another data point is the 2004 draft. Rivers didn't get #1 money even though technically he was swapped for the #1 pick.

The bottom line is that the Saints and the Bush camp are going to have to agree on some basic parameters that are in fact reasonable. My list includes:

1) The contract cannot be substatively more that Mario Williams.
2) It cannot be less that Alex Smith's from last year.
3) It's not going to be a 20% raise like Smith got over Eli Manning. In fact Williams' contract is only 15% raise in total value and 8% raise in guaranteed money. BTW those numbers would be $59M total with $29M in guaranteed money. Both excees the Williams' contract.

Truthfully somewhere between 10% to 12% increase over Smith's contract would be in the right ballpark. 10% would be $55M with $22M in guaranteed money. The Saints can sweeten it by making $6-8M a signing bonus, which Williams didn't get at all. Reggie walks away from the table with another $7-9M in his pocket, and the slot as it were still fits.

But without Vince Young's contract at the NFL offices, nothing's going to happen. If Reggie signs anything, then Vince's contract comes out as some kind of crazy blockbuster, then he'll look rather foolish.

So we sit and wait. I wonder how he'll work on blitz packages, as that's the toughest thing for a rookie to pick up.

SFIAH

Well, Braylon signed before Brown and Benson, whose holdouts probably took something off their contracts. Braylon's contract is also "up to" 40 mil, it could also be way less if he doesn't reach the "up to" figures. And in Benson's case, the hold out defintiely effected his contract negotiation, because he held out until around the last week of the pre-season. And Benson and the Bears were kinda against the wall in getting something done, so the Bears had to cave a little. Brown got a tad bit more guaranteed than Braylon though, so his camp prob felt that was good enough to not haggle over the fact Braylon possibly got more total money, if he reaches his incentives.

Also, the thing about signing bonuses is, they don't mean much. It's just another way to say guaranteed money that effects how it is handled on the cap. The most important factor in any contract is the guaranteed money. So even Mario Williams contract, with no signing bonus, is a great contract, cause he got 24 mil guaranteed. So he is getting that regardless to whether he guts hurt, cut, busts, whatever.

And on Phillip Rivers, he was drafted at 4, so no matter where he was traded, being drafted at 4 should never earn him #1 money, and it didn't. Technically doesn't matter when you are talking about millions of dollars.

I say that to say, as the #2 pick, he can not make more than Mario Williams. That's just BS. He was the #2 pick. If they wanna give him a 53 million dollar contract with 23 mil guaranteed, go for it. That's just a mil off what Mario got all around. But they can not pay him more. I would even have a slight problem with them giving him the same thing, but if it came down to it, I could live with it. It means a lot to have him here and playing, so it would be justified. Just not more. No way, no how. All world prospect or not.

By substatively more I meant that it couldn't be more in every category. $58M total and $27M guaranteed over 6 years with 1 voidable wouldn't work. But if Bush got $250k more in guaranteed money with less total value, that wouldn't be substatively more, even though it could be construed as a better contract.

SFIAH

True. I agree with that.

who was that?

hey ghandi get over it. how long you plan on crying about it. the guy spent 20 minutes with you. be thankful.

holy crap...some people are never satisfied!

i sell cars and one customer i had forgot to take their parking pass sticker off of their old car. i always remind my customers multiple times to check and double check their trade in before driving home in their new car. we sent it to detail before putting it on the used car lot and the detail guy disguarded the sticker. the customer called me 3 days later to get their sticker. she told me it would cost 20 dollars to replace. being the person i am, i sent her a $25 gas card in the mail to help compensate for her own mistake. 3 weeks later i got her survey in and she trashed me. that bad survey cost me $350. i was a nice guy and went above and beyond for a customer and it cost me almost $400.

ghandi,
considering the contract he will soon be signing i am guessing that 20 minutes of his time is probably worth more than a few thousand dollars. you should be lucky that you did not have a bill in the mail when you got home. just because you are a fan does not mean you are entitled to anything.

Here's a good article to calm some anxiety a little bit, maybe:

I have faith that it will get done. This guy is way too important to let him sit out a season because of money.

And actually jergens, I seriously disagree with your statement about fans being entitled to nothing. Sure he might not be "entitled" to an autograph, but fans are what make the NFL run, not the players. Without the fans, nobody would care about the game. Nobody would buy tickets, buy merchandise, there would be nobody to market athletes to, etc. etc. Basically, without the fans, the NFL is nothing. We pay the bills for the stadiums, we pay the players salaries, we pay the coaches salaries, the equipment costs, etc. etc. I don't think every player understands this, when they really should. Fans adore these guys who probably wouldn't be making much more than the national average salary if they weren't athletically gifted, so I think that these guys should feel blessed and lucky and should WANT to give back to the fans in whichever way they see fit. Without the fans, these guys aren't crap; they shouldn't bite the hand that feeds them.

O, and here's the link:

http://www.nola.com/sports/t-p/index...320.xml&coll=1

deuce,
my point was that just because someone is a fan does not mean they can demand things from players. they are people just like us who are allowed to have bad days and/or refuse an autograph now and then.