D_it_up

As some of you may know, I was involved in a mock draft on www.coltfreaks.com representing the Saints. Since the draft has ended, I haven't gone back to the site much. I went back once to thank the moderator for allowing me to participate and that was about it. Just out of curiosity, I went back there tonight to see what was happening in there. Lemme tell ya. That place needs some life breathed into it. There was, however, one post that was made that I'd like to share with you. It really bothered me being a Saints fan, so I just had to reply. I'll share this with y'all as well. Here's what member DLionsFan had to say:

Top 5 Best Drafts:
1.Cincinnati Bengals- Addressed alot of their needs with good players, & Palmer WILL be a special player some day.
2.Detroit Lions-Rogers was a no brainer(they turned down an offer from NE of their 2 #1's & a 2nd rd pick)Boss Bailey was a gift in the 2nd. S Terrance Holt & OT Ben Johnson were good 2nd day picks.
3.Dallas Cowboys- 4 future starters in Newman, Al Johnson, Jason Witten & Bradie James. I hate to admit this cause I still hate the Cowpukes!
4.Jacksonville Jaguars- Solid Draft! Future QB in Leftwich. OG Manuawi in the 3rd, I really like him.
5.Seattle seahawks- Very good draft throughout. Trufant is a steal at 11.
Typical Holmgren Draft.
Also recieving high marks for good Drafts: Tennessee, New England, and with what they had to work with Tampa Bay! Baltimore's Draft was OK but overrated since they gave up a number 1 pick next year. I don't think they are in position to win right now.
Top 5 Worst Drafts:
1.Arizona-self explainatory.
2.Washington
3.New Orleans-What were they smokin'?
4.Chicago-Ditto!
5.Minnesota

Now here is my reply to DLionsFan:

Being a Saints fan, I'll have to step in here on behalf of my team. The Saints knew EXACTLY what they were doing. The Saints have one of the best scouting teams in the NFL. They can really sniff out some talent. Trading their first round picks to Arizona for the man they wanted was a smart move. Jonathan Sullivan was most likely going to be gone when Minnesota selected. That is the guy they coveted right after Dewayne Robertson. Had they kept those two first rounders, then they would have to pay them first round money. Now they only have to pay one first rounder. The ONLY questionable move they made, IMO, was taking Stinchcomb in the 2nd rd. I would've preferred another defenisve player in this spot, but I don't make that call. Switching spots with the Cardinals in the second and also getting a 4th rounder was ingenious. The truly suckered Arizona. Cie Grant is possibly the most intriguing pick of the draft. This guy played cornerback for Ohio St. in 2001 and linebacker last year. He runs a 4.5 40. I think he'll be an awesome special teamer due to his speed, and he'll also be versatile because I think he could adjust eventually to play safety. Melvin Williams was a good choice (even though coming off of injury) at defensive end. He's got good speed on his pass rush and could very well be a good 3rd end for the Saints. There's no way he'll beat out Darren Howard or Charles Grant, but he'll be a more than capable back-up or fill in if one of them gets hurt. The wide receivers drafted in the 6th and 7th rounds were both rated much higher than they went. Talman Gardner was a complete steal. Teams only shyed away from him due to his off-field problems with the law. All he got was a year of probation and a lot of community service. Montrae Holland could've been the biggest steal of them all. He is a madman of an offensive lineman who I believe could start in his rookie season. He was also rated much higher on many people's boards than 4th rd. All in all, I give the Saints a B-grade for their draft, and many "experts" did as well. I've yet to see anyone give them less than a B-minus. Saying they had a bad draft when not knowing all the information about the players and the moitifs behind the moves is pretty naive. And I noticed you didn't add any information about WHY you thought they had a bad draft. Let's see if you have an argument for your comment. I'm DYING to hear it. Or maybe it's just something I'm smoking.

End of Reply

Now I know we as Saints fans weren't exactly "thrilled" with the draft, but c'mon. One of the top 5 worst in the NFL? Not even close. Not only did he not post anything about why he thought the Saints had a bad draft, he didn't about any other team, either. This is why I challenged him to make a reply. If and when he does, I'll make sure to post his argument to see if he can back it up. If there is one thing I learned about this forum here, make sure you can back up your posts with hard cold facts. Whodat! I hope I made you proud! :P

JOESAM2002

Hell, I think you made us all proud. Your answer to him was educated,well versed and to the point. It covered everything you needed to cover without being overbearing. It\'ll make this guy,whoever he is, take notice. It damned sure showed him that Saints fans know their team and the needs of that team.
Damn fine post.

pakowitz

D, u made me proud... u gave that guy what he deserved.... i just wish i was a member on that site so i could have gone off on him as well.... if he does give u some smack, i would like to join in on the battle.....

D_it_up

I still haven\'t heard a reply from this guy yet, so I\'m beginning to think I got my point across :P

D_it_up

It took him a while, but I finally got a reply out of him. Here is Dlionsfan rebuttal:


Yeah, now let me make mine! First of all, you can\'t be serious about your owner saving money by not having to pay another 1st rder(unless you work for the saints)that just diminishes the Ricky Williams trade! If your a REAL fan then you should\'nt care how much your owner spends or saves as long as he get\'s(and KEEPS) Talent. Which brings me to my next point(points). How\'s this for a list:Kyle Turley, Norman Hand, Sammy Knight, Ricky Williams, Willie Roaf, Chris Naeole, Charlie Clemons, Laroi Glover, Joe Johnson, & so on. It seem\'s like New Orleans is like a minor league team cause by the time players get good(or time to get paid!) they are gone to another team. But, that\'s OK! Cause it save\'s alot of money! I thought the idea was to get as high in the draft as you could to get the best players not save as much money as you can! As far as the draft, I think you could have stayed put & still got a pretty good DL and addressed another need in the 1st rd. You could have got the best DL available & Andre Woolfolk in the 1st & still got Mike Doss in the 2nd. As for Stinchcomb, I thought that was a good move since you lost Kyle Turley, Wally Williams & Naeole last year. You are right about Montrae Holland, he is an animal(did ya check the size of those arms?) he could be a steal if his knees hold up(2 surgeries) He went about where I thought he would- 4th rd.(that\'s what the sporting news had). Actually though I like the Saints, I just get fustrated when they take 1 step forward & 2 steps back! My best friend & fantasy football partner is from Louisana so we talk alot of Saints football! They are one of our OTHER teams. The Lions are still our number 1 priority. And even though alot of people have been getting on Matt Millen, I think this was the best Draft the Lions have had since I have been following the Draft! (including the year we got Barry) And I\'m 40 yrs old! At least the Lions are on the right track, FINALLY! And if Matt Millen does\'nt do anything else, I say he has done a hell of a job! This Draft & getting us a real coach like Mariucci. Man, people won\'t be laughing at us for much longer! I predict 7 wins for the Lions this year! And I did\'nt mean to offend anyone in Louisana, I just think the Saints could have done better! Don\'t believe all the crap the team dishes out like\"We saved alot of money!\" Have your own opinion! I\'ve been to the Superdome & I know tickets are quite HIGH. I think $85.00 was a cheap seat(compared to $35.00 at Ford Field) & we complain about that! So ask yourself why can\'t they afford to pay for the talent? Compare my list to what players have been brought in & see what ya get. And one last thing...THANK YOU for taking David Sloan off our hands! Have you got tired of his drops yet or his never ending list of injuries? I also seen you signed Walter Rasby the other day(2 ex-Lions?) You could have had Jason Witten! Alot of teams will be sad that they passed on Witten. He is a stud. And as close as you will get to Shockey! That is why I think Dallas might have had the Best draft of all! Bradie James in the 4th also!

Here is mine:


I\'ll adress the afore mentioned ex-Saints players first. Kyle Turley? We tried offering him a contract extension...not once, but TWICE. He didn\'t accept and whined quite a bit about it. If that\'s the case, then hit the road, Jack. Norman Hand? You have GOT to be kidding me about putting his name on the list. That was a God-send to trade that worthless pile of crap to Seattle. Sure he checked into Seattle weighing 326. He did the same here last year, but BALLOONED over 360 by mid-season. Good riddance. Chris Naeole? BWAHHHHHHHHHHH HA HA HA HA. I have one phrase for ol\' Naeole. \"You are the weakest link...G\'bye!\" That\'s why we got rid of him. Not because we couldn\'t pay him, it\'s because he was a huge bust. Rickey Williams? Sure he busted out awesome numbers last year for Miami. We also had THE NFC\'S LEADING RUSHER AND PRO BOWL STARTER. Deuce McAllister did more last season than Rickey would\'ve ever accomplished as a Saint, AND he even missed one game and played hurt in two others. Rickey wouldn\'t do that. If he has a hangnail, he goes on IR. Willie Roaf? Wouldn\'t you want out of a town where the rumor was going around that your wife had an affair with your star WR? He may have made the Pro-Bowl last year, but even Vermeil said he played slow, apathetic, and sluggish most of the year. He made the Pro-Bowl due to politics. Joe Johnson? That guy was, is, and always will be a cancer in anyone\'s locker room because he thinks HE IS THE MAN! Great player, I agree. Horrible attitude. LaRoi Glover? Awesome pass rusher. He was just as bad as Hand and Jackson last year in stopping the run when he played with the Saints. The only two people on your list that I\'m even close to aggrevated about losing is Knight and Clemons. They were the scapegoats on a poor defense last year. We didn\'t lose Knight. Knight opted out. It\'s not like we didn\'t want him to play, we just weren\'t going to pay him all those bucks he wanted. If you notice, neither did the Dolphins. Clemons was a victim of bad position. Clemons is more fit as a weakside linebacker. His stats dropped considerably last year, because he wasn\'t used much on pass rush situations. Those are the only two I agree with you on, though.

On the other hand, the choice of Sullivan was because they wanted the BEST DT LEFT ON THE BOARD. They didn\'t want to settle for best available. In many teams depth charts, they had Sullivan ranked 2nd behind DeWayne Robertson. I don\'t blame them one bit for the moves that they made. All in all, it wasn\'t so much a money saving move. The allotted money value for the 17th and 18th picks together can\'t be much different than the 6th pick.

As far as players getting good and leaving, that may be the majority, because the players don\'t think they get what they deserve. They feel that they played so well for the Saints that they should break the bank. Let me give you an example. Pat Swilling. He was a monster pass rushing linebacker for the Saints. We didn\'t pay him what he wanted and what happened? He went elsewhere. Where was it he went? Oh, yeah. THE LIONS. And he SUCKED. The only reason he played as well as he did in New Orleans is because he had an awesome supporting cast. He went to the Lions and there was nothing. You saying the Saints were the minor-leagues of the NFL is like the pot calling the kettle black. The Lions are horrendous no matter who their coach is. Sure they may be improving, but their long term plain is taking longer than normal. Yeah, they beat the Saints last year. Big deal. What bad team didn\'t? The Lions were still horrible. They had the best running back that ever played the game and STILL couldn\'t do anything. It goes to prove one man can\'t carry the team.

In conclusion, I still haven\'t seen a solid argument from you on why you think they had a bad draft. The only thing I can see that you\'ve mentioned is \"Quantity over quality\". That\'s not a very strong case. You being 13 years my senior, I would\'ve expected something more. If you had properly analyzed the Saints portion of the draft before you criticized them, you would\'ve seen that it didn\'t turn out near as bad as YOU think it did.

Here ya go, pak! www.coltfreaks.com :P

People shouldn't be afraid of their government. Governments should be afraid of their people.

pakowitz

man, i dont know if i have anything left to say... u pretty much said it all!!!

lumm0x

D_it_up2, I have to do this because you just offended my favorite Saints player:

You said: I agree that Pat Swilling played on a very talented team in New Orleans. I agree that he may not have achieved the same production over his career on a less talented club. But you must give credit where it is due. Any player that wins the NFC Defensive Player of the Year (by the way, you may argue that there have been better defensive players in the history of the team, but I don\'t see any awards), goes to 5 Pro Bowls and has over 105 career sacks, did not ride the coat tails of all these other great players. Are you saying that anyone could have done that playing in that position on our team? I will concede that Swilling didn\'t achieve the same production level elsewhere, although he did have a excellent first year in Detroit, making the Pro Bowl, having three interceptions (career high), 5 forced fumbles (tied-career high), 7 sacks, 6 passes defended (career high), all in only 14 games played is not SUCKING. In fact the final five years of his career, outside of New Orleans consisted of 32 sacks, 3 picks, 12 forced fumbles and 14 passes defended. That is pretty respectable stats for any player after he had already played 7 years before that. He did not SUCK after he left here. He still played to an above average level on worse teams. Few players are Walter Payton or Barry Sanders that have the ability to excel on poorly talented teams. Great players like that can actually raise the overall talent level of those around them and use the few strengths others have to their advantage. Was Pat at that level? Definitely not. Was he still productive elsewhere and able to complete a 12 year career and have some impressive stats to retire with? Definitely. He has to credit every teammate he ever played with for every stat he has, and every player that plays the game has to do that. The point is he had above average ability and was a highly productive player even when he left here. Your statement is saying that any schmuck could have done the same thing because of the players we had here. If they were all so good why did they not have the same stats? Why did the other players that played his position not achieve the same stats? It\'s a team sport and everyone benefits from the work of their teammates. I suppose you could had at least 10 sacks lining up at OLB back then because everyone else was so damn good? Do you think a guy that had 105 career sacks never saw a double team when he played here? That he never faced some of the best OT\'s in the game and still won his battles against them?

If that statement wasn\'t directed at my favorite player, you wouldn\'t hear this. Because it was, my statement is that you didn\'t even know how he performed elsewhere, because if you read those stats above, they exceeded almost every OLB that played those 5 years for us at that time. That little portion of your arguement was not supportive of your position.

D_it_up

I think they were supportive just because those numbers significantly dropped after leaving New Orleans. If the Lions and Raiders had anywhere NEAR the defense the Saints had then, those numbers would\'ve been much higher. Maybe SUCKED was a strong word for it, but he still didn\'t perform up to par in my opinion. I understand that he is your favorite player, but even you can\'t disagree that his production dropped. My bad for offending you with my comments, but I just call em like I see em.

lumm0x

I\'ll be honest, I defending Swilling because he was my favorite. But you have to admit you\'d be pretty content with a OLB on our team right now that averages over 6 sacks a season, over 2 forced fumbles a year, over 2 passes defended a year, and gets a pick a year. That would be defensively a solid OLB. Especially if your defense was ranked near the bottom of the league. A player like that would likely be a bright spot on the team. Not at the Pro Bowl level, but putting up starter numbers. The 1992 Saints defense with Swilling was ranked #2. In 1993 they ranked #11. The Lions defense in 1992 ranked #20. In 1993 they ranked #6. Check the Saints roster for each year, see what changed? You\'ll be suprised. Check the Lions defensive roster also. You\'ll be more surprised.

I can totally agree that his production dropped. La Roi Glover went to the Cowboys last year. His production dropped from his 2001 numbers in New Orleans. He made the Pro Bowl based on the impact he had with a poorer defense (although ours became poorer than theirs as we dropped over 10 ranks, and I know it wasn\'t just him). Did he suck last year in Dallas? Swillings production was on par in Detroit in 1993 as it was in 1992 with New Orleans. I think that was what Detroit was looking for as was Dallas.

I\'m just saying he didn\'t suck after New Orleans. Junior Seau\'s production has dropped after his first seven years in San Diego. He isn\'t making pro bowls anymore but he is still an effective and reasonably producing player that doesn\'t suck even at his current statistical level. I think people will be really suprised how much better the Dolphin defense will be with smart veterans like Seau and Knight added in.

You also said:
That\'s what I\'m doing right now.

D_it_up

Yeah, I\'d be content with an OLB that could produce like that. Last year we didn\'t have anyone that COULD put up those kinds of numbers because of how weak the defense was all-around. Darren Howard and Charles Grant could have easily had double digit sack figures if they had help from the interior. I\'m not saying any Joe Schmoe could come up and put up the numbers Swilling did. I loved the guy in New Orleans. He just was at his best with an all-around cast like he had here. The Saints linebacking corps really didn\'t need to produce those astronomical numbers as they had in the past, because we had an awesome pass-rushing defensive line unitl last year. Glover, Johnson, Hand, and Howard were one of the most solid D-lines the Saints ever had.....when Hand wasn\'t overweight that is. If you are saying Swilling didn\'t put up those numbers with help from his teammates then you are mistaken. I\'m just pointing out how his stats fell after leaving New Orleans.

People shouldn't be afraid of their government. Governments should be afraid of their people.