Football Digest

BillyCarpenter1 · 07-23-2003, 02:49 PM

Venturi deserves the blame for last year, BUT, one year as D coordinator does not define his credibility or lack of.

This motavation argument doesn\'t hold water in my book. Does your boss have to motivate you on a consistant basis to get you to perform?This is the NFL for god\'s sake. If you need that much motivation, then your in the wrong business. Sure coaches are motivators but that is not their primary responsibility. Their job is to put the players in the best position to make plays. I\'m sure he didn\'t do that well enough, but I\'ll say this again..........Players can make a coach look like a hero or a zero. Schemes don\'t make tackles, players do. Schemes maximize a players ability and Venturi needs to do a better job. The talent on last years defense was not good. This year should be a much better evaluation of what kind of coaching ability Venturi has.

BlackandBlue · 07-23-2003, 03:08 PM

This motavation argument doesn\'t hold water in my book. Does your boss have to motivate you on a consistant basis to get you to perform?

In sales? ABSOLUTELY! Schools have even caught on by offering motivation classes for upper management. If you get no motivation from your manager, and you work in sales, your stint with the company will be short lived. I\'ve actually seen this occur, many times over.

Sure coaches are motivators but that is not their primary responsibility.

Actually defining the responsibilities of a coaching position is a little more indepth than what you are making it out to be. If they were only responsible for one thing, then why would you need a staff of coaches working underneath you?

The talent on last years defense was not good.

Where exactly were we weak as far as talent is concerned on the defensive side of the ball? The potential was there, it just wasn\'t maximized.

[Edited on 23/7/2003 by BlackandBlue]

BillyCarpenter1 · 07-23-2003, 03:17 PM

Speaking from a sales perspective, there are sales people that need motivation on a consistant basis. These are usually your guys that don\'t meet their objectives and require a lot of supervision. These guys always make excuses for why they did not meet their quotas. They see other salemen who make their quota with seemingly no effort. The sales people that are very successful require very little supervision and motivation and know what they need to do to be successful without being told or motivated on a consistant basis.

While a coaches job goes far beyond the X\'s and the O\'s of the game. That\'s what it all boils down to. That is what they are held accountable for.

The weak area on the defense was cornerback and linebacker mainly.

The arguement that the potential was there and wasn\'t maximized may and may not be true. Can you explain that ?

[Edited on 23/7/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

BlackandBlue · 07-23-2003, 04:03 PM

Last year\'s starting lineup on defense:

DE- Darren Howard- proven stud at DE; I think we can all agree on that
DT- Grady Jackson- when in shape, can be a dominating force on the interior- proved that with his many years as a Raider, so what happened in the Big Easy?
DT- Norman Hand- once again, if in shape, can be a monster in the interior; two years removed from analysts raving about his gameplay- Fox gave him a truck because he was Howie Long\'s tough guy or whatever it was, why did his play go down at the same time that Zook left?
DE- Charles Grant/Willie Whitehead- Willie wasn\'t that good and Charles was in his rookie year. 1st legitimate weak spot so far. Don\'t take that as deragatory for Grant, it was his rookie year.
OLB- Sedrick Hodge- above average, but just barely. Has the potnetial, but hasn\'t performed at the level that he should
ILB- Charlie Clemons- outstanding outside linebacker- what moron decided to move him inside again?
OLB- Darrin Smith- weak; 2nd legitimate weak spot.
CB- Fred Thomas- good secondary corner; any man that can play in the secondary with a club for a hand has my respect.
CB- Dale Carter/Michael Hawthorne/Ken Irvin- 3rd legitimate weak spot, because of the late start Carter had and the poor play from Hawthorne and Irvin in coverage.
FS- Jay Bellamy- had no business starting; good for nickel and dime packages only; easily the 4th legitimate weak spot.
SS- Sammy Knight- pro-bowler who never waivered in performance

From where I stand, you have 4 out of 11 players who should not have been starting, because they never have nor ever will be, good enough to hold their position. What they do once they are out on the field, is up to the coaches and the players. And they share the responsibility of bad play, the players incur the rathe of the coaches/fans, the coaches incur the rathe of the owner/media/fans.

The sales people that are very successful require very little supervision and motivation and know what they need to do to be successful without being told or motivated on a consistant basis.

While I don\'t disagree with the above statement, these type of people number 1 out of 1000 sales reps. Motivation involves many things that have nothing to do with the traditional sense of the word. I\'ve got a customer in Little Rock that has a sales staff of 12 guys, 10 of which fit your description of a good sales rep. Then, I have another customer right around the corner that has 24 sales reps, 2 of which fit the description. The remainder rely on the motivation and support they recieve from the sales manager, I\'ve personally been there to see it. And they have been doing this for the past 18 years, and have been successful at it.

BillyCarpenter1 · 07-23-2003, 04:22 PM

Let\'s start with your statement about 4 players that shouldn\'t have started. I agree with the players you pointed out. Could coaching and motivation really have made a big difference? I guess what I want to know is the biggest reason for the down fall of the defense the coaching or lack of talent, or both?

While I don\'t doubt what your telling me about your real life experiences in the sales world. It has been my experience that once a sales person has learned the ropes it\'s about making enough a) telemarketing calls b.) face to face calls c) mail-outs--or whatever works for your individual company. It\'s about making enough contacts to find someone that wants to buy now or in the very near furture. It\'s a numbers game. You talk to enough people and you will be successful, if you have any sales skills at all.

Any knowlegeable sales person knows what it takes to be successful. Motivation is a good thing in any aspect of the work force, but when your hiring potential sales people you want self starters that require little motivantion or supervision.

When you hire people that need to be motivated on a consistant basis, this usually means they aren\'t living up to expectations or why else would you have to keep motivating them? Usually they are not happy with all the pep talks and lose interest and quit. It\'s a frustrating situation for all involved.

BlackandBlue · 07-23-2003, 04:59 PM

It\'s a numbers game.

That statement describes sales to a \"T\". You call 100 people, 10% will be willing to listen, and you should get 2 out of that 10 to buy. I know this system VERY well.

When you hire people that need to be motivated on a consistant basis, this usually means they aren\'t living up to expectations or why else would you have to keep motivating them? Usually they are not happy with all the pep talks and lose interest and quit. It\'s a frustrating situation for all involved.

That company I talked about that is around the corner, the two sales people that you described, report into their sales manager twice a year. That\'s it. They both work out of their homes, handle their business, and do extremely well. They don\'t need the constant support that the other 22 sales people need, who are also successful, they just need the \"attaboy\" every now and again.

EDIT: I\'ll address the rest of yourt post when I get home from work. I\'m tired and do not want to be at the office anymore.

[Edited on 23/7/2003 by BlackandBlue]

tweeky · 07-23-2003, 06:17 PM

Didn\'t we flog this horse about a month ago. Everything is ..DejaVu

I think a \"Brooks Sucks\" comment will tangent off of this next...

subguy · 07-23-2003, 09:57 PM

You know now that you mentioned it..........Brooks.........By the way, we should all look for Billy to crest the 500 post milestone before most of us wake in the morning. Be sure to congradulate him.

[Edited on 24/7/2003 by subguy]

BillyCarpenter1 · 07-24-2003, 07:04 AM

I\'m going to have to go home and take a nap to make up for all the sleep I missed worring about you---- I\'ll make you a deal. I will not respond to anymore of your posts and you continue to say what you will about me. This will make it a fair fight!!

BlackandBlue · 07-24-2003, 10:00 AM

Let\'s start with your statement about 4 players that shouldn\'t have started. I agree with the players you pointed out. Could coaching and motivation really have made a big difference? I guess what I want to know is the biggest reason for the down fall of the defense the coaching or lack of talent, or both?

I blame coaching, I think there are coaches that could have gotten alot more out of our defense than Venturi did last year. This is speculative, I guess, although I can\'t comprehend looking past the coach to the players. It\'s like the kid that burns down his school, yeah the principal isn\'t directly at fault, but he also doesn\'t want that on his resume.

07-23-2003, 02:49 PM	#21
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Football Digest Venturi deserves the blame for last year, BUT, one year as D coordinator does not define his credibility or lack of. This motavation argument doesn\'t hold water in my book. Does your boss have to motivate you on a consistant basis to get you to perform?This is the NFL for god\'s sake. If you need that much motivation, then your in the wrong business. Sure coaches are motivators but that is not their primary responsibility. Their job is to put the players in the best position to make plays. I\'m sure he didn\'t do that well enough, but I\'ll say this again..........Players can make a coach look like a hero or a zero. Schemes don\'t make tackles, players do. Schemes maximize a players ability and Venturi needs to do a better job. The talent on last years defense was not good. This year should be a much better evaluation of what kind of coaching ability Venturi has.
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

07-23-2003, 03:08 PM	#22
BlackandBlue Kinder, gentler Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,889	Football Digest This motavation argument doesn\'t hold water in my book. Does your boss have to motivate you on a consistant basis to get you to perform? In sales? ABSOLUTELY! Schools have even caught on by offering motivation classes for upper management. If you get no motivation from your manager, and you work in sales, your stint with the company will be short lived. I\'ve actually seen this occur, many times over. Sure coaches are motivators but that is not their primary responsibility. Actually defining the responsibilities of a coaching position is a little more indepth than what you are making it out to be. If they were only responsible for one thing, then why would you need a staff of coaches working underneath you? The talent on last years defense was not good. Where exactly were we weak as far as talent is concerned on the defensive side of the ball? The potential was there, it just wasn\'t maximized. [Edited on 23/7/2003 by BlackandBlue]
	The waiting drove me mad.... I don't want to hear from those that know... Everything has changed, absolutely nothing's changed Eddie is a....draftnik?

07-23-2003, 03:17 PM	#23
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Football Digest Speaking from a sales perspective, there are sales people that need motivation on a consistant basis. These are usually your guys that don\'t meet their objectives and require a lot of supervision. These guys always make excuses for why they did not meet their quotas. They see other salemen who make their quota with seemingly no effort. The sales people that are very successful require very little supervision and motivation and know what they need to do to be successful without being told or motivated on a consistant basis. While a coaches job goes far beyond the X\'s and the O\'s of the game. That\'s what it all boils down to. That is what they are held accountable for. The weak area on the defense was cornerback and linebacker mainly. The arguement that the potential was there and wasn\'t maximized may and may not be true. Can you explain that ? [Edited on 23/7/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

07-23-2003, 04:03 PM	#24
BlackandBlue Kinder, gentler Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,889	Football Digest Last year\'s starting lineup on defense: DE- Darren Howard- proven stud at DE; I think we can all agree on that DT- Grady Jackson- when in shape, can be a dominating force on the interior- proved that with his many years as a Raider, so what happened in the Big Easy? DT- Norman Hand- once again, if in shape, can be a monster in the interior; two years removed from analysts raving about his gameplay- Fox gave him a truck because he was Howie Long\'s tough guy or whatever it was, why did his play go down at the same time that Zook left? DE- Charles Grant/Willie Whitehead- Willie wasn\'t that good and Charles was in his rookie year. 1st legitimate weak spot so far. Don\'t take that as deragatory for Grant, it was his rookie year. OLB- Sedrick Hodge- above average, but just barely. Has the potnetial, but hasn\'t performed at the level that he should ILB- Charlie Clemons- outstanding outside linebacker- what moron decided to move him inside again? OLB- Darrin Smith- weak; 2nd legitimate weak spot. CB- Fred Thomas- good secondary corner; any man that can play in the secondary with a club for a hand has my respect. CB- Dale Carter/Michael Hawthorne/Ken Irvin- 3rd legitimate weak spot, because of the late start Carter had and the poor play from Hawthorne and Irvin in coverage. FS- Jay Bellamy- had no business starting; good for nickel and dime packages only; easily the 4th legitimate weak spot. SS- Sammy Knight- pro-bowler who never waivered in performance From where I stand, you have 4 out of 11 players who should not have been starting, because they never have nor ever will be, good enough to hold their position. What they do once they are out on the field, is up to the coaches and the players. And they share the responsibility of bad play, the players incur the rathe of the coaches/fans, the coaches incur the rathe of the owner/media/fans. The sales people that are very successful require very little supervision and motivation and know what they need to do to be successful without being told or motivated on a consistant basis. While I don\'t disagree with the above statement, these type of people number 1 out of 1000 sales reps. Motivation involves many things that have nothing to do with the traditional sense of the word. I\'ve got a customer in Little Rock that has a sales staff of 12 guys, 10 of which fit your description of a good sales rep. Then, I have another customer right around the corner that has 24 sales reps, 2 of which fit the description. The remainder rely on the motivation and support they recieve from the sales manager, I\'ve personally been there to see it. And they have been doing this for the past 18 years, and have been successful at it.
	The waiting drove me mad.... I don't want to hear from those that know... Everything has changed, absolutely nothing's changed Eddie is a....draftnik?

07-23-2003, 04:22 PM	#25
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Football Digest Let\'s start with your statement about 4 players that shouldn\'t have started. I agree with the players you pointed out. Could coaching and motivation really have made a big difference? I guess what I want to know is the biggest reason for the down fall of the defense the coaching or lack of talent, or both? While I don\'t doubt what your telling me about your real life experiences in the sales world. It has been my experience that once a sales person has learned the ropes it\'s about making enough a) telemarketing calls b.) face to face calls c) mail-outs--or whatever works for your individual company. It\'s about making enough contacts to find someone that wants to buy now or in the very near furture. It\'s a numbers game. You talk to enough people and you will be successful, if you have any sales skills at all. Any knowlegeable sales person knows what it takes to be successful. Motivation is a good thing in any aspect of the work force, but when your hiring potential sales people you want self starters that require little motivantion or supervision. When you hire people that need to be motivated on a consistant basis, this usually means they aren\'t living up to expectations or why else would you have to keep motivating them? Usually they are not happy with all the pep talks and lose interest and quit. It\'s a frustrating situation for all involved.
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

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07-23-2003, 04:59 PM	#26
BlackandBlue Kinder, gentler Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,889	Football Digest It\'s a numbers game. That statement describes sales to a \"T\". You call 100 people, 10% will be willing to listen, and you should get 2 out of that 10 to buy. I know this system VERY well. When you hire people that need to be motivated on a consistant basis, this usually means they aren\'t living up to expectations or why else would you have to keep motivating them? Usually they are not happy with all the pep talks and lose interest and quit. It\'s a frustrating situation for all involved. That company I talked about that is around the corner, the two sales people that you described, report into their sales manager twice a year. That\'s it. They both work out of their homes, handle their business, and do extremely well. They don\'t need the constant support that the other 22 sales people need, who are also successful, they just need the \"attaboy\" every now and again. EDIT: I\'ll address the rest of yourt post when I get home from work. I\'m tired and do not want to be at the office anymore. [Edited on 23/7/2003 by BlackandBlue]
	The waiting drove me mad.... I don't want to hear from those that know... Everything has changed, absolutely nothing's changed Eddie is a....draftnik?

07-23-2003, 06:17 PM	#27
tweeky 500th Post Join Date: May 2003 Location: South Alabama Posts: 779	Football Digest Didn\'t we flog this horse about a month ago. Everything is ..DejaVu I think a \"Brooks Sucks\" comment will tangent off of this next...

07-23-2003, 09:57 PM	#28
subguy 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: FL Posts: 2,104	Football Digest You know now that you mentioned it..........Brooks.........By the way, we should all look for Billy to crest the 500 post milestone before most of us wake in the morning. Be sure to congradulate him. [Edited on 24/7/2003 by subguy]

07-24-2003, 07:04 AM	#29
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Football Digest I\'m going to have to go home and take a nap to make up for all the sleep I missed worring about you---- I\'ll make you a deal. I will not respond to anymore of your posts and you continue to say what you will about me. This will make it a fair fight!!
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

07-24-2003, 10:00 AM	#30
BlackandBlue Kinder, gentler Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,889	Football Digest Let\'s start with your statement about 4 players that shouldn\'t have started. I agree with the players you pointed out. Could coaching and motivation really have made a big difference? I guess what I want to know is the biggest reason for the down fall of the defense the coaching or lack of talent, or both? I blame coaching, I think there are coaches that could have gotten alot more out of our defense than Venturi did last year. This is speculative, I guess, although I can\'t comprehend looking past the coach to the players. It\'s like the kid that burns down his school, yeah the principal isn\'t directly at fault, but he also doesn\'t want that on his resume.