Happier, but still not happy
 

While I'm encouraged by this team's performance against a clearly powerful Jax team, there are some caveats to be taken from this game:

1) Another win against a team that is injured and confused. Without their starting QB, without their starting RT, without their big middle DT, their best starting CB injured and the distraction of two members arrested and suspended for the game, the Jags were not the same team as even last week, much less the 1st half the season.

2) Yet another no name desperation fill-in QB has a career day against the secondary, including 13 passes over 10 yards and 5 passes over 20 yards, including 80 and 56 yarders. He made a few rookie mistakes and a few bad luck plays (McKenzie's INT), but he played remarkably well.

3) Special teams has lots of problems. Missed FGs, poor KO coverage, lower than average returns of punts and KO's.

4) Poor play mix. 49 pass, 25 run is historically a poor mix and is not a long term successful strategy. The run is used simply to give the O-line's shin muscles a break from running backwards into pass protection.

5) There is no reliable running game and no real running attack inside the tackles. Jax did not pressure Brees like the Colts, Tenn, TB or Carolina, forcing some runs. Unable to compete on the edges and without the ability to open holes, a quality coaching staff with reasonably healthy players has exposed this persistant weakness.

6) The Rams are the only mortal lock left on the schedule, if there was one this season, but given this teams epic struggle against teams who are the most dismal in NFL history, next week is not a trivial enterprise.

7) Each team left on the schedule has a lot of pride and all but one are still in the playoff hunt. Three consecutive divisional games, 2 on the road, are still the pivotal points in the season, and there's only two weeks to come up with working solutions before these teams, who've seen us already, hit us with their version of why we're not as good as we'd like to be.

8) If we don't win the division, we won't be playing in January. GB and Detroit have cake schedules and probably won't finish less than 11-5. Dallas and NY are in stride and also are likely to finish 11-5. We're already at 4 losses, so one more and we're done for a wild card.

I'm not negative, just realistic.

Re: Happier, but still not happy
 

All true....but we do have the swagger back !

Re: Happier, but still not happy
 

How I wish all of you who want to rain on other people's parade would at least have the decency to

a.- get their facts straight
b.- keep the adjectives to a minimum

1.- The Jaguars are NOT a "confused" team. They are a hardnosed, well coached team. You have to be a well coached team to be 5-2 in the AFC.
And who is this "big middle DT" that did not play? Stroud? Henderson? THEY BOTH PLAYED!
And what team is not injured at this point in the season? How about the Saints playing without their starting center, or without Deuce, or a hobbled Charles Grant, or without their SP star (Gleason)? What, those don't count?

2.- So a QB whose name is not on ESPN 24x7 threw for 340-some yards. Ok.
I don't know, maybe is me, or maybe it is that the defensive game plan was to commit to stop the Jags' bread and butter, the run, with those 2 no-names, who are they? ah, Fred Taylor and Maurice Jones-Drew, who combined for 84 yards rushing.
The McKenzie INT wasn't a "rookie mistake" or "bad luck"; it came about because of the pressure the d-line was putting on the QB when he threw the ball.

3.- Sure Mare stinks at FGs. And the Saints are missing Gleason in coverage. And you forgot to add jason David here...

4.- Here you contradict yourself. In point 1, you said the Jaguars were missing their starting CB. Wouldn't it follow that a good coach would try to exploit that? i.e., throw the ball? And since when any mix of plays is 'historically good" or "historically bad"? You probably should tell that to the Patriots. Maybe Bellichick will see the error in his ways and start running the ball more. I tell you what's historically bad: trying to stick with a game plan no matter what and not taking what the defense gives you. Also historically bad, not scoring more points than the other team.
Not to mention that many of these passes as swing/screen passes to Reggie, which takes me to...

5.- Reggie ran 17 times for 72 yards. For those who like stats, thats 4.2 a carry. He also caught 7 balls for 43 yards. How many of those balls were caught pass the LOS? 1? 2? And of those balls that he caught past the LOS, how far? 1 yard past the LOS? 2? 5? Most of the "passes" that go to Reggie are behind the LOS, and account to no more than a long hand off.

6.- There are no mortal locks in the NFL.

7,- What's this? It's the NFL. Anyone can beat anyone any given Sunday.

8 .- Not necessarily true. Just as the Giants have won 6 straight, they can lose 6 straight (did it last year). You may think that the Lions are going 14-2, the Packers 15-1, etc... but there's plenty of season still. Let's just see how it goes.

You are not negative, you just like to poop the party and are misinformed.

Re: Happier, but still not happy
 

Xan, I see where you're coming from but, this team has come a long way in the last few weeks.They're at least playing with heart now. We, as fans, owe them at the very least that recognition. Maybe they're not the Super Bowl Champions just yet, but at least they have the look of a team that COULD be. Let's give this bunch credit where credit is due. Hell,i'm proud of the way they've played the last few weeks. When was the last time you can rememebr watching the Saints and not really worry about the other team coming back and beating them on stupid plays?

Anyway, realistic is good, I just hope you don't turn into another Euph!;)

Re: Happier, but still not happy
 

I think Xan makes one very valid point. The team is improving, but still has a long way to go.

Re: Happier, but still not happy
 

That's true. He's right,we do have a way to go but at least they're on the way up instead of down.

Re: Happier, but still not happy
 

Very well said!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Happier, but still not happy
 

yeah yeah all that adversity other teams are having that we've exploited .... hold on while I get a tissue ... sniff sniff , ok better.

Meanwhile,we lost Deuce and our power running game... but have adapted and won 4 in a row.... oh but wait I forgot, we won those because the other team got confused.

Re: Happier, but still not happy
 

Last time I checked... The other guys get paid too...
They are NFL teams. So, a win is a win.


But, the pass defense "scheme" worries me some...

Re: Happier, but still not happy
 

Thank you. We win and still get discredited. Geezums.

Re: Happier, but still not happy
 

I feel going into any game now that we have a very good chance at getting the win and to me that's just sweet.
I'm sure that the players feel the same.

Re: Happier, but still not happy
 

While I appreciate your arguments, T-R, they're not held up to much scrutiny fact wise, save one.

From NFL Gamebook:

1-10-NO 33 (6:56) R.Bush right end to NO 40 for 7 yards (R.Mathis).
1-10-NO 48 (5:45) D.Brees pass short middle to R.Bush to JAX 34 for 18 yards (R.Nelson). P25
1-3-JAX 3 (2:48) R.Bush left end to JAX 4 for -1 yards (B.Iwuh).
1-10-NO 37 (12:57) R.Bush left end to NO 37 for no gain (S.Knight, M.Peterson).
3-10-NO 37 (12:06) (Shotgun) D.Brees pass short left to R.Bush to NO 41 for 4 yards
2-2-NO 38 (9:05) R.Bush left guard to NO 39 for 1 yard (R.Meier).
3-1-NO 39 (8:23) R.Bush right guard to NO 45 for 6 yards (K.Pettway). R30
2-10-NO 45 (7:36) R.Bush right end to JAX 49 for 6 yards (R.Mathis).
Timeout #2 by NO at 06:49.
3-4-JAX 49 (6:49) D.Brees pass short right to R.Bush pushed ob at JAX 43 for 6 yards (D.Smith). P31

6 of Bush's 17 touches (and 12 of our 25 runs) in the running game came with the game out of reach (the last 22 minutes of the game), where he gained only 19 yards; Jax was stacking the line to try to stop the run. He was more successful running when the game was in doubt - go figure. So the argument that there was balance or distribution is fallacious. The point still stands that the unwillingness/inability to run between the tackles when the game is competitive is an area for concern. Screen passes or swing passes aren't "long handoffs," they're timing plays that require an anticipation of a free zone to receive and run. They're not as successful this year as they were last year, and are, the way we run them, career shortening for Bush. You look at the pass/run ratios of the Pats (51%pass/49%run) - hey, you mentioned they should run more!, Colts (51/49), 'Boys (53/47) or Lions (56/44), you'll find balance and consistancy, despite their considerable weapons at WR.

My bad for thinking that Stroud didn't play. I missed the stat where he only had one tackle, no pressures and had little to do with the game. Probably looking over his shoulder for the Commish pulling his butt out of the game for drug use. Must have had no impact on his play or teammates.

And how is the argument contradictory that we beat a team that is confused and injured with their Best QB and best Corner out with injuries starting LT Barnes suspended for the game, starting RG Naole injured early, and and the reserves for both LT Suspension) and LG (injury), plus a backup LB (Suspension)? I'm glad we exploited that weakness, but that's the

4th team in a row we've beaten who's been missing significant pieces to the puzzle after losing 4 in a row to teams who have not been missing those peices.

Hence, the concern. Not sure why that's hard to grasp, but there ya go.

Sorry to put so much sarcasm in my reference to Mortal Lock, but I couldn't help noticing the reference to the Saints' inablity to beat teams who should be demoted to Div III, hence the concern. Again, not sure why that was hard to grasp, but there ya go.

And the rookie mistake/bad luck/confused play - McKenzie's INT. From the Times-Picayune (Brian Allee-Walsh, Nov 5, 2005):

From the horse's mouth. Hence the concern. Not sure why there's a problem with the observation, but even that minimal confusion didn't deter that QB from embarrassing our defense. Without 3 of their starting and two backup linemen missing, they couldn't get a nose running much less their "all-pro" backs. And why run when we've got the venerial equivalent in JD?

Tough, smash mouthed football team? [URL="http://http://mvn.com/nfl-jaguars/2007/11/05/is-toughness-a-concern-for-jacksonville/"] Not so much.

For point 7, are you arguing against my theory that the teams left on the schedule are going to be difficult to beat, especially our divisional opponents? If so, elaborate. to alleviate the concern.

For Point 8, I'll be the first to cheer for every opponent of the Giants and Lions, but I'm of the camp that you can't count on your adversary self destructing. I've got all those teams finishing around 11-5, not 15-1/14-2 anyway, which would still put them in the driver's seat relative to the Saints should the Saints lose one more game and not win the division. Those teams have more room for error than the Saints, hence the concern. Not sure why that's difficult to comprehend, or not fact based, but there ya go.

Too bad the theory that I'm misinformed didn't work out. And I'm not pooping on anything. I'm happier, but not happy. This team is on the right track, but hasn't proven it can compete with the elite of the NFL, which is what they should be doing, IMHO. If they play well and win the next 3 weeks, they have a chance to control their destiny, despite shortcomings.

Re: Happier, but still not happy
 

alrite im jumping in....so i understand the whole "happier, but not happy" thing....my wife tells me that all the time.....but, what will it take for you to say that they can "compete" with the NFL elite. and what do u consider the NFL elite? The only NFL elite i see in the NFL is the Colts and Pats. Maybe Pitt with the way they played last nite. No one else is coming close to "elite". SO the fact that we dont play them, you wont be happy? NO ONE has proven they can compete with Indy and Pats. So should we just write off the season and hope that they both get screwed in the offseason? So if we dont play any "elite" the rest of the season, how much do we have to win by and what stats do u need so the team looks like an "elite"?????

Re: Happier, but still not happy
 

Dude, sorry about the wife thing. Been there, suffered that.

Indy and Tennessee are excellent teams that we've played, certainly in the elite category. Both have potent offenses and excellent defenses. Pats are on a different planet, while Pitt, Cowboys and Giants appear to be solid on both sides of the ball and are at least as on a roll as the Saints. The Lions and the Pack are doing well, but they've got interesting schedules ahead; there's at least two losses for each in there.

What will make me happy is winning the next three games and having our destiny in our control - somewhat. TB could lose to the Saints, win the rest and the Saints could wind up out of luck due to tie-breaks. We may need a lot of help in the end, which is the cause for concern.

And, it's not the stats, per se, that is disturbing, it is the deficiencies and one dimensionality of the wins against our opponents (who have tried to compete with terminal losses of personnel).

Plus, I want to see Reggie Bush lower his shoulder pads and drive into a cornerback just once rather than prance in fear out of bounds. He might inspire our O-Line to lower their pads for runs between the tackles.

Re: Happier, but still not happy
 

Jacksonville, regardless of whom was out, is a top NFL D. they just are. And they have the best running back duo in the NFL, hands down. We held both of them under 100 yds. EVeryone has always complained that are run D blows, well, we've had what, 5 straight games without a 100 yd rusher. We've held Jones-Drew, Taylor, Gore and Alexander under 100 if i am correct. thats pretty damn good. On another point, elite means elite, as in the best. Pats and Colts, thats it. Tennesse is not an excellent team. Lions and Pack are no where near Colts/Pats, or even Dallas/NY/Pitt. And those 3 are consitently inconsistent. As far as the "one dimensionality"(damn is that a word, lol) against jacksonville. We had a defensive touchdown, no 100 yd rusher on their team, 18 vs. 32 in first downs, over 100 yds rushing for us, over 400 yds passing for us. I mean i could go on, I would say thats one of the most complete games I've seen from the Saints. I mean our defense had what, 3 ints? when was the last time that happened? Only 2 penalties on us. I liked sunday, if we play that way from here on out, i think we can compete with Dallas, Pitt, NYG, Pack, lions, all them fools. Indy and Pats, thats a different story, im not sure the NFC Pro Bowl team can compete with the Pats.......

Re: Happier, but still not happy
 

damn i sound like a sunshiner again.......

Re: Happier, but still not happy
 

I'm sure St. Louis has a forum. Why don't you go hang out there if it is so bad to be a Saints fan? I've had decades of bad, and I'm ready to celebrate the good. I repeat what I said in an earlier post "I don't want to hear it!!!"

Re: Happier, but still not happy
 

was that directed at me?

Re: Happier, but still not happy
 

What I see here in this thread is all about how different people interpret things. Everyone seems to agree that we were playing badly at the beginning of the season. We got owned by a couple of teams, mostly because our offense couldn't do anything. We lost the other because Jason David had the worst game I've ever seen a CB have (and he hasn't gotten a lot better since). We lost one game due to what seemed to be lack of heart.

Since then, the play of the team has GREATLY improved and seemingly some cannot get over the awful showing early on this year.

I theorize that if we were playing at the same level we have been playing in the last three games during those first four games, we would have won two of the four we lost. I further believe that if we played at the level we played Sunday during those first four games (and Jason David's arm was still broken and him out), we'd be undefeated right now.

No matter how to slice it, Jacksonville is no joke. They simply don't role over for anyone. They are beat up by injuries. So are we. If you don't think the Saints deserve credit for beating one of the better teams in the AFC (something they didn't do at all during last year's magical season), then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Re: Happier, but still not happy
 

Woa, there...
Since when is an NFL game out of reach with 22 minutes left in the game?????

And when did I say anything about "balance" or distribution"? You are the one complaining about it, not me. I don't care who they do it, being 100 passes and no rushes, or 100 rushes and no passes, as long as they win.

And again, you make no sense:
First you say that the game was out of reach with 22 freaking minutes left. Ok. If the Saints can put games out of reach with 22 minutes left in the game by passing the ball, what the hell is wrong with that??

Then you say that Jacksonville was stacking the box to try to stop the run. Ok What do you want the Saints to do? Just run it between the tackles? Or be smart and PASS the ball?
And again, why is it that the other team's injuries count and not the Saints?

The Saints aren't missing any pieces? Really? Deuce wasn't a piece of the puzzle? Our starting center out doesn't count? Our starting DE hobbling around the field doesn't count? That we have no field goal kicker doesn't count? That the Saints are missing their start special teams player doesn't count? That jason David is playing CB doesn't count? Oh, no. That doesn't count. The Saints are at full power. And you have the nerve to highlight it!!! Is it THAT hard to grasp that the Saints are also missing pieces?

as for the quote in the article, what does that prove? I guess only rookies have those INTs. I've seen Farve, Brees, Mcnair, throw those, just like Gray, not so long ago, i.e, this year. Are those still considered rookie mistakes?

As for the stats, again, you try to make a point here, then you contradict yourself with the point there.You point out that Reggie got most of his rushing yards after the game "was out of reach with 22 minutes left". Why don't you go ahead and look when are the Patriots getting their rushing yards/attempts? I'll save you the trouble with these hard facts: 33 TDs passing, 8 rushing. No one playing the Patriots goes into the game with stopping the run being their #1 priority. No one. So I don't really care what percentage comes out adding passing attempts with rushing attempts then dividing it by # of attempts gives you: the Pats are destroying other teams with the passing game. Listen, we find $100, you get $1, I get $99. Hey, we got an average of $50. We are good, right? The Patriots put teams away passing the ball. Period.

Re: Happier, but still not happy
 

Face it, we lost to the Panthers...and that is simply an unpardonable sin.

Re: Happier, but still not happy
 

I remember debating a lot of people about this during his rookie season. He shys away from contact... something that really irks me. He needs to lower his shoulder and gain those extra yards rather than running out of bounds all the time. At USC, you use to see him run the side lines and cut back into the field exploding for big plays. This is an element in Reggie's game he needs to rediscover.

Please if anyone wants to talk about we need to keep him healthy, unnecessary contact, we already got the first down, yadda yadda mumbo jumbo... don't waste your breathe on me.

Re: Happier, but still not happy
 

It irks me to no end the way Reggie runs. Nobody wants a Marvin Harrison at running back. Bush has enough speed and shiftiness to make the cuts necessary for those game changing runs - but he continues to run directly sideways instead of north. Darren McFadden anyone?

Re: Happier, but still not happy
 

LOL, I agree with you... John Madden also agrees with you. There is this new trend where RB's get what they can and get out of bounds. There is a theory in thinking that it will prolong there life span in the NFL, by taking less hits and unecessary abuse. "Get what you can and then go down/out of bounds". I can agree with it to a degree but you are right there have been some obvious plays where he should have lowered and take the etra 2-3 yards even as you dive to the ground for it but instead runs right out of bounds.

Re: Happier, but still not happy
 

Barry Sanders also to his credit ran north/south/east/west. Using your ****iness also means running east/west as well. Bush really isn't a power runner. I know I'll get slammed for that comment but come on he isnt built as a power runner he is a slasher-speed guy. A RETURN MAN gone RB.

Re: Happier, but still not happy
 

He's not a power runner, but he does (in italics so you know it's for real) lower his shoulder for the tough yards these days (underlined for added emphasis).

Re: Happier, but still not happy
 

side note....

Your Avatar is BEAST.

You should post MORE...just so i can see it.

Re: Happier, but still not happy
 

I think that I speak for most people when I say "Why in the world is PT not in there?" Make him the primary rb and move Bush all over the place. Put Stecker in for third downs.

Re: Happier, but still not happy
 

It must be PT's pass blocking. Remember, that is usually the most difficult aspect of the pro game for rookies to pick up on.