Saints an elite team?

BillyCarpenter1 · 08-01-2003, 09:04 AM

Before the days of free agency, you had teams in the NFL that were dominate. Teams such as the 49'ers, Cowboys, Bills, etc.. Back in those days ,if opposing teams were going to win it all, they could hold nothing back on the offensive side of the ball. If your team was lucky enough to make it to the playoffs, you would ineviatiably run into one of the elite teams. Because of the high powered offenses of those teams, you simply could not rely on playing not to lose on the offensive side of the ball, like teams can today, unless of course you were one of the elite teams.

Now with more of the talent being spread out across the NFL , instead of being concentrated on a few teams, offenses seem to play not to lose, rather than playing to win. The old saying that defenses wins championships seems to hold true more now than ever. Not that it wasn't true then, but offenses like the championship teams of the 49'ers and Cowboys certainly did more than their fair share to win games, unlike the Bucs and Patriot teams of late.

Jon Gruden gets much of the credit for the championship that the Bucs won, and rightly so, but when Gruden was with the Raiders he was not able to take them to the Superbowl and he had one of the most potent offenses in the game, but did not have a dominate defense.

All of that brings me to my point, which is, they say there are no more dominate teams in the NFL, but the Saints have put together one of the best offenses and special teams in the league. If the rebuilt defense pans out like the other two units, IMO, the Saints have a chance to be an elite team for the next 3 or 4 years. Considering the great job the team has done with the salary cap and the young age of the team, the Saints front office has built this team for years to come, unlike some teams who sign high price free agents and dismantle the following year.

Because the Saints have assembled an offense that can probably measure up to some of the eltie teams of the past, maybe the Saints can be an elite team for years to come. It all rides on the defense coming around.

[Edited on 1/8/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

[Edited on 1/8/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

Memnoch_TP · 08-01-2003, 09:56 AM

Yeah, the only problem is we could already be considered a dominant team if not for the inevitable December collapse. I still think we had a great shot at being he first team to have home field advantage during the Super Bowl, but we blew it. And last year, we beat the best of the best. And lost to the worst of the worst.

I kinda have to agree with Turley. He pissed off alot of people with what he said, but traditionally, noting pisses people off like the truth. Look at the Lions game in week 4. Even though we went down by 20 points off the bat, again, we could have come back and won, again. Watch the game again, we had the opportunities but not the execution. That is why the whole \"Blame the ones who are gone\" philosophy bothers me so much. I think it is less about a change in personell and more about a change in attitude.

It\'s not when the Saints revamp the defense that we will win. It is when the Saints come out against teams like Detroit and Cincinatti fired up! But they sashayed onto the field where they should have stormed onto the field. They expected an easy game, and they got an easy game... for the other team. Yeah, our defense was bad last year. But they were good enough to win games. You all know who we lost to and who we beat last year so there is no need to repeat it. But our wins and losses say that it wasn\'t our defense, or our QB, but our attitude that kept us from being dominant.

If the attitude changes, if we are just as hungry to beat the lesser teams as we are the greater teams... Then the Saints will rock the pillars of Heaven. If not, this group of Saints we have will not be remembered for being dominant, but for being the best team that never was.

coastalkid · 08-01-2003, 10:01 AM

Don\'t forget how quickly a \"elite team\" is decimated after a superbowl win during the following offseason due to free agency. Those teams you spoke of, 49ers, Dallas, Bills and some others, did suffer with the loss of some of their better talent due to free agency, ie; Deon Sanders, Ken Norton just to name a couple. You are correct in saying that the Saints organization has done alot to build this team as it stands today but if and when they do win a superbowl there will be some of the players who will seek the big megadeal contract that will bring them to another team thus breaking down the Saints. It happens every year. So Far Tampa has been luck as they have only lost a couple of players due to free agency during this past off season.

BillyCarpenter1 · 08-01-2003, 10:06 AM

When I say elite team I mean for the next 3 or 4 years, not like the 49\'er, Cowboys, etc., who were dominate for a decade. All of the Saints key players are locked up with the team for the next 3 or 4 years.

coastalkid · 08-01-2003, 10:22 AM

All of them?? Are you sure about that? Just who, in your opinion are the \"key\" players?

saint5221 · 08-01-2003, 10:38 AM

As good as one can imangine this years team to be , think how good next years will be. Billy is right we have no major free agents on the horizon,only a few starters at all next year(Duece will be up in a couple years). We also will be in excellent cap shape. After this year to evaluate the talent brought in on defense, we will have money to go get what will be neded to have a team with enough talent to be a bowl contender. The real point then is Memnoch\'s does the team have the attitude to win, the mental toughness down the strech to win it all. I\'m hoping history will be a powerful educator and motivator in the comming years. Time will tell , how well the lessons of two december collapses and lightly taken weaker foes are learned. But there can be no stronger push than the sting of history those players now feel. I hope it hurts enough.

[Edited on 8/1/2003 by saint5221]

BillyCarpenter1 · 08-01-2003, 10:52 AM

All of them?? Are you sure about that? Just who, in your opinion are the \"key\" players?

Aaron, Duece, Horn, Stallworth, Sullivan, Howard, and Grant are the key players but the fact is, most of our team is locked up for the next 3 or 4 years, some longer. You disagree?

tweeky · 08-01-2003, 10:57 AM

Great point Billy, The Saints are building for the long run.
The Saints are assembling a phenominal mix of youth and experience.
Quick Fixes- Free agents
Dynasty Building- NFL Draft
It appears to me their \"Dynasty Building\" philosophy is working well.
I see them looking at their drafts this way...

Hi-picks-
Lets get the best future pro-bowler available, the elite freak on their board.
Examples: Stallworth, Sullivan, Grant, McCallister...

Middle Rounds-
1. Studs that slipped and/or players that need a couple years to develop into a stud.
Examples: Mitchell, Allen, Smith, Craver, Stinchcomb, Hawthorne (OK we\'re still waiting on him)
2. Guys they can\'t believe are still there, based on their own projection boards.
Examples: Cie Grant, Montrae Holland.

Late Rounds-
1. Future projects, or players who slipped through the cracks with tremendous upside
Examples: Gardner, Kelly, Melvin Williams, Hilton (OK I know he was a FA, but you get my point).

Sully: Uber-Stud, nuff said

Stinchcomb: Will take over for Gandy after 2 years of development and lower body strengthening.

Grant: 2004, this guy will be a quality starter, will also help this year. Hopefully our Ray Lewis, without the murder baggage.

Holland: They couldn\'t believe he was still there. 2004 stud. Will have \"Follow Me Deuce\" tattooed on his asss.

Williams: Project with huge upside if knee heals, May become our version of Simeon Rice in 2004/2005.

Kelly: Horn is getting old, need some 2004/2005prospects for #2WR to start stepping up.

Gardner: See Kelly

coastalkid · 08-01-2003, 01:05 PM

No Billy I don\'t disagree with those that you mentioned in fact I totally agree. I just wanted to see who you felt were our \"key\" players. I also was not sure who, from our key player list, was about to be a free agent after this year. Thanks for the info.

08-01-2003, 09:04 AM	#1
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Saints an elite team? Before the days of free agency, you had teams in the NFL that were dominate. Teams such as the 49'ers, Cowboys, Bills, etc.. Back in those days ,if opposing teams were going to win it all, they could hold nothing back on the offensive side of the ball. If your team was lucky enough to make it to the playoffs, you would ineviatiably run into one of the elite teams. Because of the high powered offenses of those teams, you simply could not rely on playing not to lose on the offensive side of the ball, like teams can today, unless of course you were one of the elite teams. Now with more of the talent being spread out across the NFL , instead of being concentrated on a few teams, offenses seem to play not to lose, rather than playing to win. The old saying that defenses wins championships seems to hold true more now than ever. Not that it wasn't true then, but offenses like the championship teams of the 49'ers and Cowboys certainly did more than their fair share to win games, unlike the Bucs and Patriot teams of late. Jon Gruden gets much of the credit for the championship that the Bucs won, and rightly so, but when Gruden was with the Raiders he was not able to take them to the Superbowl and he had one of the most potent offenses in the game, but did not have a dominate defense. All of that brings me to my point, which is, they say there are no more dominate teams in the NFL, but the Saints have put together one of the best offenses and special teams in the league. If the rebuilt defense pans out like the other two units, IMO, the Saints have a chance to be an elite team for the next 3 or 4 years. Considering the great job the team has done with the salary cap and the young age of the team, the Saints front office has built this team for years to come, unlike some teams who sign high price free agents and dismantle the following year. Because the Saints have assembled an offense that can probably measure up to some of the eltie teams of the past, maybe the Saints can be an elite team for years to come. It all rides on the defense coming around. [Edited on 1/8/2003 by BillyCarpenter1] [Edited on 1/8/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

08-01-2003, 09:56 AM	#2
Memnoch_TP Logic Troll Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Southern Louisiana Posts: 565	Saints an elite team? Yeah, the only problem is we could already be considered a dominant team if not for the inevitable December collapse. I still think we had a great shot at being he first team to have home field advantage during the Super Bowl, but we blew it. And last year, we beat the best of the best. And lost to the worst of the worst. I kinda have to agree with Turley. He pissed off alot of people with what he said, but traditionally, noting pisses people off like the truth. Look at the Lions game in week 4. Even though we went down by 20 points off the bat, again, we could have come back and won, again. Watch the game again, we had the opportunities but not the execution. That is why the whole \"Blame the ones who are gone\" philosophy bothers me so much. I think it is less about a change in personell and more about a change in attitude. It\'s not when the Saints revamp the defense that we will win. It is when the Saints come out against teams like Detroit and Cincinatti fired up! But they sashayed onto the field where they should have stormed onto the field. They expected an easy game, and they got an easy game... for the other team. Yeah, our defense was bad last year. But they were good enough to win games. You all know who we lost to and who we beat last year so there is no need to repeat it. But our wins and losses say that it wasn\'t our defense, or our QB, but our attitude that kept us from being dominant. If the attitude changes, if we are just as hungry to beat the lesser teams as we are the greater teams... Then the Saints will rock the pillars of Heaven. If not, this group of Saints we have will not be remembered for being dominant, but for being the best team that never was.
	"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." -- Douglas Adams.

08-01-2003, 10:01 AM	#3
coastalkid 100th Post Join Date: May 2003 Location: Spain Posts: 287	Saints an elite team? Don\'t forget how quickly a \"elite team\" is decimated after a superbowl win during the following offseason due to free agency. Those teams you spoke of, 49ers, Dallas, Bills and some others, did suffer with the loss of some of their better talent due to free agency, ie; Deon Sanders, Ken Norton just to name a couple. You are correct in saying that the Saints organization has done alot to build this team as it stands today but if and when they do win a superbowl there will be some of the players who will seek the big megadeal contract that will bring them to another team thus breaking down the Saints. It happens every year. So Far Tampa has been luck as they have only lost a couple of players due to free agency during this past off season.

08-01-2003, 10:06 AM	#4
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Saints an elite team? When I say elite team I mean for the next 3 or 4 years, not like the 49\'er, Cowboys, etc., who were dominate for a decade. All of the Saints key players are locked up with the team for the next 3 or 4 years.
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

08-01-2003, 10:22 AM	#5
coastalkid 100th Post Join Date: May 2003 Location: Spain Posts: 287	Saints an elite team? All of them?? Are you sure about that? Just who, in your opinion are the \"key\" players?

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08-01-2003, 10:38 AM	#6
saint5221 500th Post Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 598	Saints an elite team? As good as one can imangine this years team to be , think how good next years will be. Billy is right we have no major free agents on the horizon,only a few starters at all next year(Duece will be up in a couple years). We also will be in excellent cap shape. After this year to evaluate the talent brought in on defense, we will have money to go get what will be neded to have a team with enough talent to be a bowl contender. The real point then is Memnoch\'s does the team have the attitude to win, the mental toughness down the strech to win it all. I\'m hoping history will be a powerful educator and motivator in the comming years. Time will tell , how well the lessons of two december collapses and lightly taken weaker foes are learned. But there can be no stronger push than the sting of history those players now feel. I hope it hurts enough. [Edited on 8/1/2003 by saint5221]
saint5221 500th Post Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 598

08-01-2003, 10:52 AM	#7
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Saints an elite team? All of them?? Are you sure about that? Just who, in your opinion are the \"key\" players? Aaron, Duece, Horn, Stallworth, Sullivan, Howard, and Grant are the key players but the fact is, most of our team is locked up for the next 3 or 4 years, some longer. You disagree?
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

08-01-2003, 10:57 AM	#8
tweeky 500th Post Join Date: May 2003 Location: South Alabama Posts: 779	Saints an elite team? Great point Billy, The Saints are building for the long run. The Saints are assembling a phenominal mix of youth and experience. Quick Fixes- Free agents Dynasty Building- NFL Draft It appears to me their \"Dynasty Building\" philosophy is working well. I see them looking at their drafts this way... Hi-picks- Lets get the best future pro-bowler available, the elite freak on their board. Examples: Stallworth, Sullivan, Grant, McCallister... Middle Rounds- 1. Studs that slipped and/or players that need a couple years to develop into a stud. Examples: Mitchell, Allen, Smith, Craver, Stinchcomb, Hawthorne (OK we\'re still waiting on him) 2. Guys they can\'t believe are still there, based on their own projection boards. Examples: Cie Grant, Montrae Holland. Late Rounds- 1. Future projects, or players who slipped through the cracks with tremendous upside Examples: Gardner, Kelly, Melvin Williams, Hilton (OK I know he was a FA, but you get my point). Sully: Uber-Stud, nuff said Stinchcomb: Will take over for Gandy after 2 years of development and lower body strengthening. Grant: 2004, this guy will be a quality starter, will also help this year. Hopefully our Ray Lewis, without the murder baggage. Holland: They couldn\'t believe he was still there. 2004 stud. Will have \"Follow Me Deuce\" tattooed on his asss. Williams: Project with huge upside if knee heals, May become our version of Simeon Rice in 2004/2005. Kelly: Horn is getting old, need some 2004/2005prospects for #2WR to start stepping up. Gardner: See Kelly
	Whether we agree or disagree; its all for Him.

08-01-2003, 01:05 PM	#9
coastalkid 100th Post Join Date: May 2003 Location: Spain Posts: 287	Saints an elite team? No Billy I don\'t disagree with those that you mentioned in fact I totally agree. I just wanted to see who you felt were our \"key\" players. I also was not sure who, from our key player list, was about to be a free agent after this year. Thanks for the info.