Defense question

DeadmaN · 12-19-2007, 10:54 AM

I was watching the game last week with my soon to be father-in-law when subject of the bucks game came up and he posed an interesting idea

Mind you, I didn't get the chance to see this game cause I was working so I'm not sure how it went down exactly but he pointed out that on that last drive by the bucks they were in a close a yardage position with us backed up against the goal line

He said that Jason David was out matched on a jump ball?
He then asked if there are any league rules that stopped an offensive player from being subbed as a defensive player

I told him I wasn't sure but I couldn’t see that it was against the rules I have seen the pat's use Randy Moss as a CB and I have seen them use Mike Vrable as a tight-end but again I wasn't sure

So he asked why we didn't put Colston who is 6'-4" and had grate hands or copper who is 6'-2" in the game instead of David who is 5'-8"

Anyone have any incite?

WhoDat205 · 12-19-2007, 11:06 AM

The Pats used Tory Brown as a nickle back, and there's no rule against it. You may have to notify the refs, but I think that's just in the case of using a player as an elligible receiver without the proper #.

Craft is who was beat, IIRC, but that's neither here nor there. I don't see any reason you couldn't use Colston to defend a corner route in the endzone. The only problem I see is how do you know when they're going to run it and who it's going to? Also, what if the offense audibles to something that the DB/receiver can't cover?

saintsfan1976 · 12-19-2007, 11:06 AM

The Bucs were in a bunch formation on the goal line. TE Jerramy Stevens was on the end and motioned to the outside at the last second before the snap. He was one on one with Craft who was in perfect position but just about 3 inches shorter than he needed to be to deflect the pass. New Orleans had no timeouts and couldn't change personnel. Then we fumbled and game over.

I don't know the rules of using an O player for D, but I'm sure if that person is listed as such, then yes.

stockman311 · 12-19-2007, 11:21 AM

There is no such rule. Also you don't have to notify the refs.

The reason you don't put Colston on the field to play defense is two fold.

First and foremost WR and CB are entirely different positions that require entirely different skill sets. DB's are constantly backpeddling and breaking to the ball as opposed to WR who are used to running in only one direction. Also, DB's need to know defensive scheme and the tendencies of the WR's they are going against. They need to know if a guy cuts routes short or acts differently at the line when the play is called for him. They need to know how to play in a zone where they pass receivers off to safeties and pickup other players as they come into their zone. This is not an easy task to learn.

Secondly, using Colston on both sides would detract from his playmaking abilities on both sides. Even Deion Sanders, arguably the best pure athlete to ever play the game only played both sides of the ball occasionally. It's just too tiring to play the entire game at peak efficiency.

You will see WR's in the game in end of the game scenarios such as Hail Mary's and the like because WR's have better hands than DB's in theory. This is the main reason everyone was screaming bloody murder when Bullocks dropped two perfect onside kicks earlier this year. As a DB he should never have been on the HANDS team. Colston would have caught both of those balls.

Tobias-Reiper · 12-19-2007, 01:53 PM

The one thing that I always wonder is why coaches don’t convert tall, fast WRs with no hands out of college to CBs, like they do other positions (QBs to WRs, RBs; SS to LB, etc..)

Unlike Stockman, I think a WR to CB transition would be a smooth one, because the WR already has an understanding of both positions, since the WR goes against the CB. The WR already understands zone coverage, because he plays against it, so he understands the “passing” of the coverage from CB to SS/FS. The backpedaling thing, CBs don’t back pedal for about 5 yards at the most then they have to turn around and run with the WR, so I don’t see backpedaling being a problem.

And, Bo Jackson was the best pure athlete to ever play the game, not Deion. J

WhoDat205 is correct, it was Jason Craft who got beat… he had perfect position, just not enough height.

WhoDat205 · 12-19-2007, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper

[FONT='Estrangelo Edessa']And, Bo Jackson was the best pure athlete to ever play the game, not Deion. J

Yep.......

hagan714 · 12-19-2007, 03:54 PM

Any body can play any position at anytime. Coaches call

DeadmaN · 12-19-2007, 04:13 PM

First I would like to thank everyone for there input as I will pass it along to him

Originally Posted by saintsfan1976

He was one on one with Craft who was in perfect position but just about 3 inches shorter than he needed to be to deflect the pass.

oops yeah now that I think about it he did say Jason Craft not Jason David
thanks for the correction

Originally Posted by stockman311

Secondly, using Colston on both sides would detract from his playmaking abilities on both sides. Even Deion Sanders, arguably the best pure athlete to ever play the game only played both sides of the ball occasionally. It*s just too tiring to play the entire game at peak efficiency.

ok but I think what he was saying was not for Colston to play all the time but on a key play like that and I may be wrong in my analysis of this but I would think he wouldn*t need to know routs and zones considering that it is a short yardage situation and as far as I can tell the best thing to do in that situation would be to simply smother the guy so he can*t take a breath and simply wait for the ball...
Right?

MatthewT · 12-19-2007, 07:08 PM

I don't want to see Colston on defense at all. Yes he is big and fast, but I can see him getting burned on a pump fake since he has no experience at the position. Some of the other guys listed above, have a lot more speed to mask a mistake in technique.

Euphoria · 12-19-2007, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by stockman311

There is no such rule. Also you don't have to notify the refs.

The reason you don't put Colston on the field to play defense is two fold.

First and foremost WR and CB are entirely different positions that require entirely different skill sets. DB's are constantly backpeddling and breaking to the ball as opposed to WR who are used to running in only one direction. Also, DB's need to know defensive scheme and the tendencies of the WR's they are going against. They need to know if a guy cuts routes short or acts differently at the line when the play is called for him. They need to know how to play in a zone where they pass receivers off to safeties and pickup other players as they come into their zone. This is not an easy task to learn.

Secondly, using Colston on both sides would detract from his playmaking abilities on both sides. Even Deion Sanders, arguably the best pure athlete to ever play the game only played both sides of the ball occasionally. It's just too tiring to play the entire game at peak efficiency.

You will see WR's in the game in end of the game scenarios such as Hail Mary's and the like because WR's have better hands than DB's in theory. This is the main reason everyone was screaming bloody murder when Bullocks dropped two perfect onside kicks earlier this year. As a DB he should never have been on the HANDS team. Colston would have caught both of those balls.

Props... very good response.

12-19-2007, 10:54 AM	#1
DeadmaN Saints Junky Join Date: May 2007 Location: Metairie Originally now a Houston transplant Posts: 672	Defense question I was watching the game last week with my soon to be father-in-law when subject of the bucks game came up and he posed an interesting idea Mind you, I didn't get the chance to see this game cause I was working so I'm not sure how it went down exactly but he pointed out that on that last drive by the bucks they were in a close a yardage position with us backed up against the goal line He said that Jason David was out matched on a jump ball? He then asked if there are any league rules that stopped an offensive player from being subbed as a defensive player I told him I wasn't sure but I couldn’t see that it was against the rules I have seen the pat's use Randy Moss as a CB and I have seen them use Mike Vrable as a tight-end but again I wasn't sure So he asked why we didn't put Colston who is 6'-4" and had grate hands or copper who is 6'-2" in the game instead of David who is 5'-8" Anyone have any incite?
	http://blackandgold.com/members/dead...1t-saints3.gif Last edited by DeadmaN; 12-19-2007 at 10:57 AM..

12-19-2007, 11:06 AM	#2
WhoDat205 Prediction Pain Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 1,082 Blog Entries: 2	Re: Defense question The Pats used Tory Brown as a nickle back, and there's no rule against it. You may have to notify the refs, but I think that's just in the case of using a player as an elligible receiver without the proper #. Craft is who was beat, IIRC, but that's neither here nor there. I don't see any reason you couldn't use Colston to defend a corner route in the endzone. The only problem I see is how do you know when they're going to run it and who it's going to? Also, what if the offense audibles to something that the DB/receiver can't cover?
	"defence's personal to allwats double team or watch is over, that one reason why the saints or not any good." - Vador101

12-19-2007, 11:06 AM	#3
saintsfan1976 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Atlanta Posts: 10,540 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Defense question The Bucs were in a bunch formation on the goal line. TE Jerramy Stevens was on the end and motioned to the outside at the last second before the snap. He was one on one with Craft who was in perfect position but just about 3 inches shorter than he needed to be to deflect the pass. New Orleans had no timeouts and couldn't change personnel. Then we fumbled and game over. I don't know the rules of using an O player for D, but I'm sure if that person is listed as such, then yes.

12-19-2007, 11:21 AM	#4
stockman311 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 1,137	Re: Defense question There is no such rule. Also you don't have to notify the refs. The reason you don't put Colston on the field to play defense is two fold. First and foremost WR and CB are entirely different positions that require entirely different skill sets. DB's are constantly backpeddling and breaking to the ball as opposed to WR who are used to running in only one direction. Also, DB's need to know defensive scheme and the tendencies of the WR's they are going against. They need to know if a guy cuts routes short or acts differently at the line when the play is called for him. They need to know how to play in a zone where they pass receivers off to safeties and pickup other players as they come into their zone. This is not an easy task to learn. Secondly, using Colston on both sides would detract from his playmaking abilities on both sides. Even Deion Sanders, arguably the best pure athlete to ever play the game only played both sides of the ball occasionally. It's just too tiring to play the entire game at peak efficiency. You will see WR's in the game in end of the game scenarios such as Hail Mary's and the like because WR's have better hands than DB's in theory. This is the main reason everyone was screaming bloody murder when Bullocks dropped two perfect onside kicks earlier this year. As a DB he should never have been on the HANDS team. Colston would have caught both of those balls.

12-19-2007, 01:53 PM	#5
Tobias-Reiper Merces Letifer Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,161	Re: Defense question The one thing that I always wonder is why coaches don’t convert tall, fast WRs with no hands out of college to CBs, like they do other positions (QBs to WRs, RBs; SS to LB, etc..) Unlike Stockman, I think a WR to CB transition would be a smooth one, because the WR already has an understanding of both positions, since the WR goes against the CB. The WR already understands zone coverage, because he plays against it, so he understands the “passing” of the coverage from CB to SS/FS. The backpedaling thing, CBs don’t back pedal for about 5 yards at the most then they have to turn around and run with the WR, so I don’t see backpedaling being a problem. And, Bo Jackson was the best pure athlete to ever play the game, not Deion. J WhoDat205 is correct, it was Jason Craft who got beat… he had perfect position, just not enough height.
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12-19-2007, 03:07 PM	#6
WhoDat205 Prediction Pain Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 1,082 Blog Entries: 2	Re: Defense question Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper [FONT='Estrangelo Edessa']And, Bo Jackson was the best pure athlete to ever play the game, not Deion. J Yep.......

12-19-2007, 03:54 PM	#7
hagan714 LB Mentallity Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 15,870 Blog Entries: 68	Re: Defense question Any body can play any position at anytime. Coaches call

12-19-2007, 04:13 PM	#8
DeadmaN Saints Junky Join Date: May 2007 Location: Metairie Originally now a Houston transplant Posts: 672	Re: Defense question First I would like to thank everyone for there input as I will pass it along to him Originally Posted by saintsfan1976 He was one on one with Craft who was in perfect position but just about 3 inches shorter than he needed to be to deflect the pass. oops yeah now that I think about it he did say Jason Craft not Jason David thanks for the correction Originally Posted by stockman311 Secondly, using Colston on both sides would detract from his playmaking abilities on both sides. Even Deion Sanders, arguably the best pure athlete to ever play the game only played both sides of the ball occasionally. Its just too tiring to play the entire game at peak efficiency. ok but I think what he was saying was not for Colston to play all the time but on a key play like that and I may be wrong in my analysis of this but I would think he wouldnt need to know routs and zones considering that it is a short yardage situation and as far as I can tell the best thing to do in that situation would be to simply smother the guy so he can*t take a breath and simply wait for the ball... Right?
	http://blackandgold.com/members/dead...1t-saints3.gif Last edited by DeadmaN; 12-19-2007 at 04:20 PM..

12-19-2007, 07:08 PM	#9
MatthewT 1000 Posts + Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Mississippi Posts: 2,705	Re: Defense question I don't want to see Colston on defense at all. Yes he is big and fast, but I can see him getting burned on a pump fake since he has no experience at the position. Some of the other guys listed above, have a lot more speed to mask a mistake in technique.

12-19-2007, 09:55 PM	#10
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	Re: Defense question Originally Posted by stockman311 There is no such rule. Also you don't have to notify the refs. The reason you don't put Colston on the field to play defense is two fold. First and foremost WR and CB are entirely different positions that require entirely different skill sets. DB's are constantly backpeddling and breaking to the ball as opposed to WR who are used to running in only one direction. Also, DB's need to know defensive scheme and the tendencies of the WR's they are going against. They need to know if a guy cuts routes short or acts differently at the line when the play is called for him. They need to know how to play in a zone where they pass receivers off to safeties and pickup other players as they come into their zone. This is not an easy task to learn. Secondly, using Colston on both sides would detract from his playmaking abilities on both sides. Even Deion Sanders, arguably the best pure athlete to ever play the game only played both sides of the ball occasionally. It's just too tiring to play the entire game at peak efficiency. You will see WR's in the game in end of the game scenarios such as Hail Mary's and the like because WR's have better hands than DB's in theory. This is the main reason everyone was screaming bloody murder when Bullocks dropped two perfect onside kicks earlier this year. As a DB he should never have been on the HANDS team. Colston would have caught both of those balls. Props... very good response.