Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David
 

I present to the court of public opinion my evidence that the Saints still don't know how to make good draft picks and sign good free agents.

Comments?

:mad:

Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David
 

Don't forget Pittman. Or even better - Sullivan.

Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David
 

I got blasted for saying Meachum was in bust in week 4, him needing time, yada, yada, yada and it takes a few years to make a good WR. That said, I hold my tongue until I see him on the field in a regular season game.
David, however, I said was a bust the first week against Indy and he hasn't improved or learned this defense either.
Pittman: I thought PT was better and we still have something there. I still like him and hope he gets a chance against da'bears.
Sullivan: He just looked fat and stupid. What can I say.

Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David
 

.. what's this, amateur hour?

There are other boards that play these games..

Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David
 

FORTY YEARS OF INEPTITUDE AND THE BEAT GOES ON!!

Anybody remember Joe Don Looney?

How about Kevin Hardy?

Look them up on the internet! You'll find further evidence of just how good the Saints scouts and front office have always been at bringing in NFL talent to your NEW -- ORLEANS -- SAINTS !

Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David
 

What games? I'm opening a discussion. If you don't have anything to add, then, that's fine.

Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David
 

It's getting better. Brees was a great acquisition. Colston is a shining glory. There's room for improvement, but it's getting better than the past.

The Sullivan pick still pisses me off. TWO first round picks for that flop. Not just one.

Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David
 

Last year we were gods and now we are the pooh pooh brain trust?
If the draft was that great why in the world would you think the new guys would start right away? Were you wrong in the first place? Meach has a bum knee. ok I have to swallow that one. But for the money he got he better be ready next year. I do not care how dense you might be a year is plenty of time to learn your job. As for the #4 pick we got burned a bit. That happens. It happens to all the teams. So we found a FA gem that save us cap room and is a better player. Sound like a silver lining is there, somewhere, if you just look hard enough. I guess the coaches were right. We did need another RB for 2007.
No I am not doing near the David bit. Never liked it. But Drew was ok
Yes we like every team in the NFL have draft choices that are totally a bust. Ok the saints have way more than share but this is a new time. Can we try to just get along and agree that we disagree? NOT bring it amateur hour is over
LOL fickle fans are always fun. LOL

Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David
 

The Saints aren't the only team that has made mistakes in the draft. Can you say Tim Couch, Ryan Leaf. Lots of teams make mistakes in the draft. Whether it's the scouting or the fact that it's that much harder in the NFL then college for some players who knows. But the one thing to remember is even though the 2007 draft and free agency pickups wasn't a success, the Saints did try to upgrade some weaknesses. Maybe not in all the right places but they did try. Yes I know JD sucks but who did he replace? Fred blow by you Thomas. Everyone called for a replacement and the Saints responded just not very well. Last year other than Colston the receiver cord was very inconsistent, Meachum looked good at Tennessee. We still don't know how he'll be in the NFL but I'm willing to give him until next year. Take a look at the RB situation right now. Moving up to pick Pittman wasn't that bad of a move until the coaches found out undrafted RB Pierre Thomas was a better runner. My point being yes there seems to be a problem in evaluating talent but I think it is widespread in the NFL not just in New Orleans. We just love football that much that it is that much more noticeable to us. The NFL is a business and I'm willing to bet these scouts are getting kick backs from player's agents to put in a good word or two to the GMs and the people who make the decisions on which players to pick up. Here's to a better offseason in 2008. Happy New Year to all of you.

Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David
 

No, it's not just just the Saints or the NFL... From sports to business to stocks to government - Busts are widespread.

No matter how many timers, yard sticks and weights you use... we still can't measure the future!

Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David
 

You open a discussion when you present a coherent argument.
Naming 2 players as "evidence" is plain dumb. You can look up ANY team in the NFL over ANY span of years or any given year and you will find draft and FA busts, and more than likely the misses will be more than the hits.

Any team that has more hits that misses over a short span of years and those hits are matched with the right coaching staff, become the so-called dynasties, as in the 70's Steelers, the 80's Whiners, the 90's Cowboys...

But here, off the top of my head, draftees and free agents that range from solid football players to great players to future HoFers, within recent years:
FAs
Brees
Fujita
McKenzie
Carney
Stecker
KK
H. Thomas
Miller
Blake
Dwight Smith
Delhomme
Fontenot
Horn

Draftees
Bush
Deuce
Colston
Karney
Harper
Grant
Smith
Gleason
PT
Bulger
Roaf
Howard
Stallworth
Turley
Neole
Knight
Neal
Fields

... and I'm leaving out a lot of names from the 90's, 80's, and 70's.


Your client better get another lawyer.

Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David
 

Well, I think the subject of this post is valid discussion, though I know some of you disagree. I don't think it's just griping.

But back to the topic, it's not the the talent evaluation that's bummed me out recently. I know that's a crapshoot. Anyone can flop from the draft, no one's perfect at evaluation. But rather, it's been the positions being targeted, in the order they're being targeted.

Bottom line, I don't care whether Meachem can play or not - he was the wrong position to pick at #1. It was a poor choice. I can't understand how management justifies WR when we're so desperate for talent on the defense.

Over the last few years, we have not targeted CB, S, or LB in the first round. And it's killing us, I think. I really think that's what's wrong with the team right now.

Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David
 

OK, Cap. When it comes to evaluating talent for draft picks and FA acquisitions, the Saints aren't any worse than anybody else!! That's your position, and, I respect you for it!

I disagree with your position.

And, the Saints overall W/L record during the last 40 years supports my position.

I don't want to turn this into a Saints-bashing thread or an internet fight with you or anybody else.

I agree, that we have done some great things in the FA and draft areas. Deuce may be remembered as the Greatest Saint of All Time (he has my vote.)

QUESTION TO THE GROUP: WHAT IS THE REASON FOR THE SAINTS RECENT IMPROVEMENT IN SCOUTING AND FO TALENT EVALUATION?

More thoughts, please?

Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David
 

You have a great point here . . . you may be absolutely right.

Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David
 

I present to you MY argument.

Coaching.

Coaching raw talent, and shaping them into competitive NFL players.

All the 40 yard dash times, shuttles, verticle leap, etc. etc. those are all just TOOLS - without a craftsman they're just junk lying around the shed.

I conject that we need to aim for bringing in a proven, big-name student and teacher of the game to coach up our defense. Singletary, Rex Ryan, Jim Johnson, somewhere along those lines, they can coach up any talent.

Eagles, Colts, Patriots, Steelers, Tampa Bay, Dallas, Bears, Seahawks, Chargers, Broncos, Ravens, all these teams usually have GOOD defenses year in and year out even with the player turnover they get.

So I ask again, talent vs. coaching?

Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David
 

Meachem was a value point pick at the time. BPA. No he did not fit a pressing need but he did fill a need. Horn was not going to be on the team and Henderson is not the answer at #2. So at the time he was the pick. Till he hits the field I can not pass judgment. But to this date he still is the BPA at that point. Except for 2 or 3 players that are actually playing he has not proven to be a bad pick.

Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David
 

True. He is a flop for this season alone.

Everybody wants him to start in and produce in every game next year.

My point is not totally invalid, however. I seriously doubt that the Saints FO expected him to sit out his entire first year when they made him their first pick.

Look, I simply have little confidence in our scouts and our front office. I'm pretty sure that most of us would agree with me on this.

Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David
 

I like our head football coach. I have no opinion on the OC and DC.

Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David
 

Over the last few years, we have not targeted CB, S, or LB in the first round. And it's killing us, I think. I really think that's what's wrong with the team right now.

You're right. They need to do the right thing this draft CB LBand maybe another CB

Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David
 

I will not argue the point that the saints have in the past two years been building the offense. first you sign Drew to a mega contract coming off a shoulder injury. You better have the line. Then Bush falls into your lap. You really have you hand forced now. So in two years we have turned over the starting and have one remaining player and the depth to lead the NFL in the fewest sacks allowed in both years. Now that coaching and FO work at its finest. But at what cost?
The defense has not really been addressed. The team knows it. It is us the fans that that need a little insight. Thats why so many defensive players have been signed to one year deals over the past two years. They are stop gap measures, thats all. A temp fix till we get started on that side of the ball. Why sign players that you know do not fit your long term plans to long contracts? It just makes the rebuilding process that much longer. This is why I give Gibbs a pass. He is dealing with a situation he has really no control over. He knows the plans and is trying to the best he can with the players he has got. Many are nothing more than top notch backups around the NFL patched together as a starting unit. Now when we start getting those real starter types on the team you all will love the depth the coaches have added for now. I am telling you if you look at this from that angle we have all the bench players we need. One heck of an excellent group of second stringers. Depth will not be an issue. So forget about the second half of that building part. That part has been done. Heck they even got a couple of starters along the way.
But do we now go all out and not finish the job on the offensive side of the ball? We are so close. One to 3 pieces are needed. Thats it. I say finish the job you have started. Will the draft be so one sided? No way. we are almost done.

Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David
 

he following selections were made with drafts from 1985 through 2003. Information provided includes the school they attended, the team that selected them and in what draft they were taken. The players draft position overall can be seen in parenthesis.

First Team

QB Ryan Leaf (2) Washington State-San Diego Chargers-1998
RB Blair Thomas (2) Penn State-New York Jets-1990
WR Desmond Howard(4) Michigan-Washington Redskins-1992
TE Ricky Dudley(9) Ohio State-Houston Oilers-1996
OT Tony Mandarich(2) Michigan State-Green Bay Packers-1989
OG Eugene Chung(13) Virginia Tech-New England Patriots-1992
DE Aundray Bruce(1) Auburn-Atlanta Falcons-1988
DT Steve Emtman(1) Washington-Indianapolis Colts-1992
LB Brian Bosworth(2) Oklahoma-Seattle Seahawks-1987
CB Bruce Pickens(3) Nebraska-Atlanta Falcons-1991
S Patrick Bates (12) Texas A&M-Los Angeles Raiders-1993

Second Team

QB Heath Schuler (3) Tennessee-Washington Redskins-1994
RB Lawrence Philips (6) Nebraska-St. Louis Rams-1995
WR Michael Westbrook (4) Colorado-Washington Redskins-1995
TE David LaFluer(22) LSU-Dallas Cowboys-1997
OT Antoine Davis(8) Tennessee-Philadelphia Eagles-1991
OG Brian Jozwiak(7) West Virginia-Kansas City Chiefs-1986
DE Andre Wadsworth(3) Florida State-Arizona Cardinals-1998
DT Dimitrius Underwood(29) Michigan State-MinnesotaVikings-1999
LB Percy Snow(13) Michigan State-Kansas City Chiefs-1990
CB Michael Booker(11) Nebraska-Atlanta Flacons-1997
S Shaun Williams(24) UCLA-New York Giants-1998

Not a saint in the group

Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David
 

Agreed all the way around. That's why I hope to see a solid Defensive draft pick in addition to a key defensive FA (LB CB)

Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David
 

What about Oaklands #1 selection this year DaMarcus Russell. After a long hold out this offseason he was all but useless to them this year. Do you label him a bust? Do you give him time to learn the position and the speed of the NFL? What were his numbers last week 3 out of 10 and a couple picks? That seems like a bust I would cut him. I'm going to hold any judgement on Meachem TILL HE ACTUALLY PLAYS.
As for B the prosecutor drops the case. He sucks he cant understand the man he lines up across from is his responsibility. It is his job to cover the wr and either he cant do or he cant resist the temptation to peek in the backfield. Whatever the problem I dont think it is fixable. This was a match fit for this team and/or scheme. Please suit up Fred Thomas.

Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David
 

I'm not judging Meachem at all. I am indeed passing judgment on a FO that uses its first pick to take a WR that doesn't play a down all year.

If you think that comparing Meachem, a WR, to a rookie QB, Russel, is a good comparison, and excuses the Saints FO, then, I have no further comments for you. Everybody knows that many rookie QBs take a year to learn . . . but a WR?? Not so often . . .

Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David
 

My main point is that we, as Saints fans, should try to let the FO know that we are watching their moves, and, we expect them to do a GREAT job, not just an average job.

Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David
 

No I am not excusing the FO. I am always on Mickey "the Mouse" Loomis's case. But I will admit when they have done something right. The OL is built for the west coast. Complete turn over and they did a great job so far. So Hooah to them.
On the defensive side they have been patching a unit together. A ton of one and two year contracts. A bunch of top flight backups and thats it. They have found a couple of starters on the way.
Now if they duplicate the effort when we make the defensive push it will be amazing. They have not really applied the push yet. Next year I expect to see more than a few new faces on that side of the ball. I give them 2 more years to get a unit together and finish of the offense side. Then I will judge.

Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David
 

Two more years of cushion for this FO seems very generous. Are you sure that it's warranted?

Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David
 

Warranted? Yes, I think it is. Haz was given more time than that. Four years to rebuild a team is reasonable - very reasonable.

If Hagan is right, then we're in for a real treat in two years time. But we must also remember that the clock is ticking. Brees won't be in his prime forever. And since Brees is our best shot for a Superbowl win (IMO), we must move quickly to get a supporting cast around him. Quickly. It must start happening - NOW.

Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David
 

If we get so luck as in 2006 to rebuild the defense we will be there a year early. But that does not happen often. The saints D did much better against the run and the secondary will get a couple of new faces. At least 4 IMO. 2 CB and a S. The 4th will be a hybrid. Then some youth at LB and the line. Lets see in may.
Remember Haz went backward and so far we are going forward. I am looking for a team that wins more than one super bowl ring

Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David
 

shoot, I'll take the one ring.

Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David
 

OK, I'll buy everything you say here, EXCEPT . . . MORE THAN ONE SUPERBOWL RING??

I'll need more time to convince myself that this could happen.

;)

Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David
 

What you want a team that wins just one and goes back to its loosing way? Give it time and watch. Yes no city America deserves a dynasty more than the FANS of the Saints.
Two years in a row the Saints have one of the best offenses in the NFL and that is what they have been building. They have not even started on the defense. Lets see what happens now that we are pretty much loaded up on offense. Duce hurts and Meachem leave us wondering but the rest of the offense is pretty much set. That will cost us some money and/or picks to fix. Ok a small step backwards. That happens.
If you can except the fact that the starters on the offense are good and we have the depth to handle the injuries and stay competitive then you get it. Last year we stayed healthy. This year we did not. Yet here we are after an 0-4 start without duce and bush and all the other injuries on the offense and we are still alive in the playoff chase. I say Sean and the offense have in the 2 years of building (an offense) have succeeded and shown it can withstand injuries. In years past we all would have been talking about a top 5 draft choice.
Now if we are so lucky, which I doubt. The defense should go under the very same change in two years. It may take a year or two longer but there is a chance it can happen. All we need is the defense to lower the points average per game from 23.7 to 19 and we are talking a whole different team. Address the secondary which I think they will and not give up the big plays, as much and we are talking 10 plus wins every year. As long as the offense can withstand injuries, which they proved this year and put up the 23.7 average they did this year we are set. We all now they did not play their best either.
The defense has the bench already. They are playing now. All we need is some starters.
Learn a lesson from the Pats. No one player is greater the teams success despite what the fans think. Trade them while they are hot and always have a back up plan to replace them. Henderson is my case in point. He will walk and we held onto him for what? So the FO has a lesson to learn. Stock piling picks is a good thing. Any pick. Thought they would have learned that with colston.

Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David
 

I wonder if Saints management reads this board.

Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David
 

I think Meachum is active today. Yeah!!!......?????

Re: Exhibit A: Meachem; Exhibit B:David
 

He was listed at 11:45 am EST as inactive for the game against the Bears.

He never played a down in the regular season.

We will have to see how he does in the 2008 season (when he will be a year older than when we drafted him.)