A GIANT Championship BLUEPrint for the Saints to follow.

NarwhalHunter · 02-04-2008, 12:40 PM

Preach it SFIAH. The offense is more than good enough to do the job; if the D was just above-average we'd be perennial contenders.

Tobias-Reiper · 02-04-2008, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

We want to build a consistent winner here. That requires a plan. A blueprint.

No disagreement here. But defense on both sides caused that to happen. Without the Giants defense, the score wouldn't have been 14-10. And if the New England defense produced a stop on the final drive, the outcome would have been different.

It's like the old baseball adage: Great Pitching always stops great hitting.

But you can't do it without defense. The 2000 Ravens had an average offense at best. Same for the 1985 Bears. Outstanding defense and average offense can win championships. But the opposite never happens. There has not been one instance in 42 years in the NFL where a team with a great offense and an average defense has even gotten a sniff of the championship. Each and every time you see a great offense, there's always a great defense attached.

So that leads me right back to point #1:

Defense wins championships.

SFIAH

The '85 Bears had an "average" offense? That's news to me. The '85 Bears are arguably the best defense in NFL history, but their offense was very good., with McMahon, Gault, Sweetness (heck Payton won Offensive Player of the Year that year); an O-line that had Keith Van Horne and Jay Hillenberg... that was a very good offense, and scored a lot of points.

Everyone loves to bring up the 2000 Ravens when talking about the "defense wins championships" cliche. Ok. They had a mediocre offense and a great defense. Anyone else you care to mention? You can't, because save for the Ravens, all other teams were balanced teams.
Go check it yourself.
http://ww.nfl.com/superbowl/history?campaign=gsi_g
Other than the Ravens, find me a team that was unbalanced and won the SB. Even the losers were balanced.

You can mention the Ravens all you want, but then there's the 1995 Steelers and the 2003 Panthers, both outstanding defenses ( I believe both ranked 1st those seasons) who lost the SB to more balanced teams which had defenses not as well regarded.

And we are just talking SBs here, but I'll leave you with this thought:
If it is true that defenses win championships, why isn't that the Saints have no SB rings?

LordOfEntropy · 02-04-2008, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

The Giants secondary is considered ordinary on a good day. So how did they do it?

Simple.

Yes, very simple. The answer? - Don't let the Patriots know what your signal calls are or which plays you're going to run before the game. Do that, and the great vaunted Pats offense - the most "prolific offense in history" - can only score 14 points.

Simple.

Euphoria · 02-04-2008, 01:59 PM

The one reason why the Giants were playing in the Super Bowl and not the Saints... PASS RUSH. DC, also mapped out a hell of a coverage package to keep Moss in check and coached his guys to play disiplined football which we totall lack.

BIGEASY504 · 02-04-2008, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

Defense wins championships.

Let me repeat...

Defense wins championships.

Earlier in the week Tom Brady scoffed at the Burris notion that they'd only score 17 points. They only scored 14.

Defense wins championships.

The Giants secondary is considered ordinary on a good day. So how did they do it?

Simple.

Stop the run. Pressure the QB.

And that's what the Saints need to do. When the QB only has 1.5 seconds to get rid of the ball or be sacked, All balls coming out are going to be short. Then all the defensive backfield has to do is get the receiver down.

We need to continue to work on our front seven. I think there's a nucleus there with Grant (hope dude is OK), Smith, Thomas, and Fujita. But we need to shore them up with a couple of athletic rangy LBs that can rush the passer and a dominant DT that can collapse the pocket. Then follow it up with a pressure scheme that makes QBs uncomfortable.

Look at the defenses that gave the Patriots trouble during the year: Baltimore, Philly, the Giants. All had the same gameplan.

Defense wins championships.

I hope the Saints take this GIANT BLUEprint to heart.

SFIAH

Stop the run. Pressure the QB. For the most part this is the blue print for every team in league some excute it better than others and the Saints are a few players in the front 7 away from that so I agree with your assessment

Euphoria · 02-04-2008, 03:45 PM

I'd say we are 7 players short of a front 7 capable of doing what the Giants were able to do last night.

LordOfEntropy · 02-04-2008, 04:36 PM

Well I'm just happy the Giants pulled it off. Kudos to them. And not because I particularly like those Giants, which I don't.

1) the unbeatable Pats are ruined
2) their "perfect" season is now so much wind
3) the most prolific offense in history can only score 14
4) acknowledged longterm cheating didn't help them in the end
5) Eli stuck it to them in the two-minute drill
6) back to back Mannings as SB MVP's

I'm telling you, it couldn't have been scripted any better than that.

MatthewT · 02-04-2008, 09:15 PM

The Giants also may have proved another thing. There is no room on a team for disruptive players, also known as team cancers. Tiki retiring from the the NFL was a positive, talented but high maintenance Jeremy Shockey getting hurt seemed to help, and the complete turnaround in overall attitude by Burress was simply huge. I never seen Burress ever play as well as he has this past season. In the past I seen him simply not run complete routes, and rarely stretch for a pass. At least the Saints do not appear to have malcontents on their team, so at least one piece of the puzzle is already complete.

procto · 02-05-2008, 08:18 AM

SFIAH.....i logged on looking for this comment last night (didnt see it so i posted under the giants D conversation)---

man you gotta quit pounding this defense thing...everyone is on board for the kind of D you are talking about! everybody wants our old saints LB core back in new orleans. I am all about bringing in EVERY defensive player available in free agency as well as new coaches if thats what it takes. BUT....that is not the team we have now! Tobias is right....it takes a good balance to win the SB. our strength will be our offense and drew brees for as long as Peyton is our coach, so lets support it and hope that we can bring some defensive players in to help the cause!

SaintFanInATLHELL · 02-05-2008, 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by procto

SFIAH.....i logged on looking for this comment last night (didnt see it so i posted under the giants D conversation)---

No problem.

man you gotta quit pounding this defense thing...everyone is on board for the kind of D you are talking about!

I don't see it. Every time I make the point, someone makes a point that has to do with offense.

The Saints offense, presuming that we resign our own free agents, is just as potent and capable as the two SB contenders this year. Yet they played in the SB and we did not. There is a singular reason for that.

Everyone in this organization, from Benson to Payton to the fan on street, needs to understand that defense is the only barrier to our team's success. Every resource, every move, every thought this organization thinks in the coming year should be a defensive thought.

I have not found this to be the case on this board, and I don't believe that the Saints organization is giving anything other than lip service to the concept.

I would loved to be proved wrong. I'd like to see moves like...

everybody wants our old saints LB core back in new orleans. I am all about bringing in EVERY defensive player available in free agency as well as new coaches if thats what it takes.

That would go a long way to showing a commitment to defense.

BUT....that is not the team we have now!

And that's exactly the problem.

Tobias is right....it takes a good balance to win the SB. our strength will be our offense and drew brees for as long as Peyton is our coach, so lets support it and hope that we can bring some defensive players in to help the cause!

That's approach will never get the team to a championship level. It has never been done in 42 years of SB history. The Giants are like the 3rd team is SB history not to have a scoring defense in the top 10 for the regular season that they won the SB. But like the others (83 Raiders and 2006 Colts) the defense played championship level ball during the playoffs.

There's all this discussion about balance. The Saints are way overbalanced to the offensive side of the ball. My rather extreme take on this is simply to rebalance the equation to couple a championship caliber defense to an offense that's already there.

Simply put if the Saints had a defensive front seven that could put pressure on the QB like the Giants could, that may have been us lifting the Lombardi trophy.

We all want a championship. A significantly better defense is the path to that championship.

So let's get to it.

SFIAH

02-04-2008, 12:40 PM	#11
NarwhalHunter 100th Post Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Hattiesburger with Cheese Posts: 146 Blog Entries: 1	Re: A GIANT Championship BLUEPrint for the Saints to follow. Preach it SFIAH. The offense is more than good enough to do the job; if the D was just above-average we'd be perennial contenders.

02-04-2008, 12:56 PM	#12
Tobias-Reiper Merces Letifer Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,161	Re: A GIANT Championship BLUEPrint for the Saints to follow. Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL We want to build a consistent winner here. That requires a plan. A blueprint. No disagreement here. But defense on both sides caused that to happen. Without the Giants defense, the score wouldn't have been 14-10. And if the New England defense produced a stop on the final drive, the outcome would have been different. It's like the old baseball adage: Great Pitching always stops great hitting. But you can't do it without defense. The 2000 Ravens had an average offense at best. Same for the 1985 Bears. Outstanding defense and average offense can win championships. But the opposite never happens. There has not been one instance in 42 years in the NFL where a team with a great offense and an average defense has even gotten a sniff of the championship. Each and every time you see a great offense, there's always a great defense attached. So that leads me right back to point #1: Defense wins championships. SFIAH The '85 Bears had an "average" offense? That's news to me. The '85 Bears are arguably the best defense in NFL history, but their offense was very good., with McMahon, Gault, Sweetness (heck Payton won Offensive Player of the Year that year); an O-line that had Keith Van Horne and Jay Hillenberg... that was a very good offense, and scored a lot of points. Everyone loves to bring up the 2000 Ravens when talking about the "defense wins championships" cliche. Ok. They had a mediocre offense and a great defense. Anyone else you care to mention? You can't, because save for the Ravens, all other teams were balanced teams. Go check it yourself. http://ww.nfl.com/superbowl/history?campaign=gsi_g Other than the Ravens, find me a team that was unbalanced and won the SB. Even the losers were balanced. You can mention the Ravens all you want, but then there's the 1995 Steelers and the 2003 Panthers, both outstanding defenses ( I believe both ranked 1st those seasons) who lost the SB to more balanced teams which had defenses not as well regarded. And we are just talking SBs here, but I'll leave you with this thought: If it is true that defenses win championships, why isn't that the Saints have no SB rings?
	'Cause the simple man pays the thrills, the bills and the pills that kill

02-04-2008, 01:34 PM	#13
LordOfEntropy 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Cary, NC Posts: 1,838	Re: A GIANT Championship BLUEPrint for the Saints to follow. Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL The Giants secondary is considered ordinary on a good day. So how did they do it? Simple. Yes, very simple. The answer? - Don't let the Patriots know what your signal calls are or which plays you're going to run before the game. Do that, and the great vaunted Pats offense - the most "prolific offense in history" - can only score 14 points. Simple.

02-04-2008, 01:59 PM	#14
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	Re: A GIANT Championship BLUEPrint for the Saints to follow. The one reason why the Giants were playing in the Super Bowl and not the Saints... PASS RUSH. DC, also mapped out a hell of a coverage package to keep Moss in check and coached his guys to play disiplined football which we totall lack.

02-04-2008, 02:50 PM	#15
BIGEASY504 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 487	Re: A GIANT Championship BLUEPrint for the Saints to follow. Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL Defense wins championships. Let me repeat... Defense wins championships. Earlier in the week Tom Brady scoffed at the Burris notion that they'd only score 17 points. They only scored 14. Defense wins championships. The Giants secondary is considered ordinary on a good day. So how did they do it? Simple. Stop the run. Pressure the QB. And that's what the Saints need to do. When the QB only has 1.5 seconds to get rid of the ball or be sacked, All balls coming out are going to be short. Then all the defensive backfield has to do is get the receiver down. We need to continue to work on our front seven. I think there's a nucleus there with Grant (hope dude is OK), Smith, Thomas, and Fujita. But we need to shore them up with a couple of athletic rangy LBs that can rush the passer and a dominant DT that can collapse the pocket. Then follow it up with a pressure scheme that makes QBs uncomfortable. Look at the defenses that gave the Patriots trouble during the year: Baltimore, Philly, the Giants. All had the same gameplan. Defense wins championships. I hope the Saints take this GIANT BLUEprint to heart. SFIAH Stop the run. Pressure the QB. For the most part this is the blue print for every team in league some excute it better than others and the Saints are a few players in the front 7 away from that so I agree with your assessment
BIGEASY504 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 487

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02-04-2008, 03:45 PM	#16
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	Re: A GIANT Championship BLUEPrint for the Saints to follow. I'd say we are 7 players short of a front 7 capable of doing what the Giants were able to do last night.

02-04-2008, 04:36 PM	#17
LordOfEntropy 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Cary, NC Posts: 1,838	Re: A GIANT Championship BLUEPrint for the Saints to follow. Well I'm just happy the Giants pulled it off. Kudos to them. And not because I particularly like those Giants, which I don't. 1) the unbeatable Pats are ruined 2) their "perfect" season is now so much wind 3) the most prolific offense in history can only score 14 4) acknowledged longterm cheating didn't help them in the end 5) Eli stuck it to them in the two-minute drill 6) back to back Mannings as SB MVP's I'm telling you, it couldn't have been scripted any better than that.
	Last edited by LordOfEntropy; 02-04-2008 at 04:40 PM..

02-04-2008, 09:15 PM	#18
MatthewT 1000 Posts + Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Mississippi Posts: 2,729	Re: A GIANT Championship BLUEPrint for the Saints to follow. The Giants also may have proved another thing. There is no room on a team for disruptive players, also known as team cancers. Tiki retiring from the the NFL was a positive, talented but high maintenance Jeremy Shockey getting hurt seemed to help, and the complete turnaround in overall attitude by Burress was simply huge. I never seen Burress ever play as well as he has this past season. In the past I seen him simply not run complete routes, and rarely stretch for a pass. At least the Saints do not appear to have malcontents on their team, so at least one piece of the puzzle is already complete.

02-05-2008, 08:18 AM	#19
procto Registered Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: bossier city Posts: 56	Re: A GIANT Championship BLUEPrint for the Saints to follow. SFIAH.....i logged on looking for this comment last night (didnt see it so i posted under the giants D conversation)--- man you gotta quit pounding this defense thing...everyone is on board for the kind of D you are talking about! everybody wants our old saints LB core back in new orleans. I am all about bringing in EVERY defensive player available in free agency as well as new coaches if thats what it takes. BUT....that is not the team we have now! Tobias is right....it takes a good balance to win the SB. our strength will be our offense and drew brees for as long as Peyton is our coach, so lets support it and hope that we can bring some defensive players in to help the cause!

02-05-2008, 06:03 PM	#20
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,776	Re: A GIANT Championship BLUEPrint for the Saints to follow. Originally Posted by procto SFIAH.....i logged on looking for this comment last night (didnt see it so i posted under the giants D conversation)--- No problem. man you gotta quit pounding this defense thing...everyone is on board for the kind of D you are talking about! I don't see it. Every time I make the point, someone makes a point that has to do with offense. The Saints offense, presuming that we resign our own free agents, is just as potent and capable as the two SB contenders this year. Yet they played in the SB and we did not. There is a singular reason for that. Everyone in this organization, from Benson to Payton to the fan on street, needs to understand that defense is the only barrier to our team's success. Every resource, every move, every thought this organization thinks in the coming year should be a defensive thought. I have not found this to be the case on this board, and I don't believe that the Saints organization is giving anything other than lip service to the concept. I would loved to be proved wrong. I'd like to see moves like... everybody wants our old saints LB core back in new orleans. I am all about bringing in EVERY defensive player available in free agency as well as new coaches if thats what it takes. That would go a long way to showing a commitment to defense. BUT....that is not the team we have now! And that's exactly the problem. Tobias is right....it takes a good balance to win the SB. our strength will be our offense and drew brees for as long as Peyton is our coach, so lets support it and hope that we can bring some defensive players in to help the cause! That's approach will never get the team to a championship level. It has never been done in 42 years of SB history. The Giants are like the 3rd team is SB history not to have a scoring defense in the top 10 for the regular season that they won the SB. But like the others (83 Raiders and 2006 Colts) the defense played championship level ball during the playoffs. There's all this discussion about balance. The Saints are way overbalanced to the offensive side of the ball. My rather extreme take on this is simply to rebalance the equation to couple a championship caliber defense to an offense that's already there. Simply put if the Saints had a defensive front seven that could put pressure on the QB like the Giants could, that may have been us lifting the Lombardi trophy. We all want a championship. A significantly better defense is the path to that championship. So let's get to it. SFIAH
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