Saftey Help
 

I don't understand why the Saints have not addressed the need for help at Saftey. I know it is easy to say that corner was the biggest need after Jason David was exposed as a fraud but saftey needs to be upgraded as well.

Sammy Knight is the last saftey that made a difference in N.O. Although he was run out of New Orleans (I think becasue of T. Sucky Jones) I still think he was the best saftey the Saints have put on the field in many years.

Good news is I hear he is avalible again - Not sure but I think he is 82 now and has an arthritic hip so it would only be a slight upgrade.

What are you thoughts on possible Saftey upgrades.

Re: Saftey Help
 

No way could we address all the defensive needs. I think they have tried but nothing worked out this year. Besides this is only the second full year they will playing together at SS and FS. with all the other changes we have made I think we can survive. Run support from the safety position will not be as big of a demand as it was last year. We may have to wait till 2009 to address it. Then again the way the saints have worked FA and the draft they may still have a move or two left in them.

Re: Saftey Help
 

Are any safeties projected as cap casualties come June 1st?

Re: Saftey Help
 

I don't think our S position is that bad. I think this year they will look better with the D-line getting more pressure. The improvement will trickle down to the secondary.

Re: Saftey Help
 

Agreed. With the additions of Ellis and Vilma, they will not be asked to play as much in run support and that should help them in passing situations. Keep in mind that Harper is still young and has promise. Hopefully, if they open the spot for competition between Bullocks and KK, then we will see one or both of them step up their game and claim it.

Re: Saftey Help
 

Now don't get me wrong, I am a huge Sammy Knight fan, but don't people remember how Knight and Bellamy got burned deep like every third play that one season? Knight was simply too slow to play in a Left-Right system, which is what we were building at the time.

I was a bit surprised when we didn't try to pick up the S from Michigan as an UDFA, but we did get some kid.

Last year in the offseason we brought in a lot of Safeties. Haper and Bullocks won the jobs. I'm convinced that with a better pass rush, as has been noted by many, our Safeties will be better. That said, I don't think either will ever be a star S. Of course, we don't need stars at every position. Bullocks has one more year of experience, so maybe he'll get a bit better - it isn't his fault that he didn't expect David to get burnt every play. I think Haper is a solid player.

How much better do we need to at Saftey to (1) to win games, (2) to make the playoffs, (3) to win the SB?

I'd guess the following: (1) we're good, (2) we're good, (3) that depends on what team we are playing and whether or not our offense can keep putting up the numbers.

In all, I'd say that it isn't our Safeties, no matter how mediocre, that are the main stumbling block GIVEN how how team is constructed and how it has won games in the last two years.

In fact, I'd be willing to bet health at LB and RB are going to be our main concerns. Secondarily, I'd guess that the constitution of our OL and its ability to gel as a unit is the next greatest concern.

Re: Saftey Help
 

We still have Reiss (sp) on the roster. Haven't seen much of him, so I don't know what he brings. KK is better than Bullocks. Harper will get better, imo.

Re: Saftey Help
 

No the safties were bad, period. They were out of position, didn't make the proper breaks on deep passes and let the WR's get pass them.

I know many of you like to drag Jason David through the mud but a lot of it needs to be placed on the coaches and the Safties as well. You don't bring in a cover 2 CB and say ok play man and here is a saftey to help you from time to time...wait a saftey who doesn't know what the hell he is doing. Jason David earned a SB ring. Reason: he had support and coaches who knew what the F they were doing.

We are still going to have our short comings on D this coming year but at least we are taking the steps in the right direction. I agree Ellis is going to help a lot of areas look good at times but you can't fix everything in one offseason. But great strides were made and there will be improvement. If not Coaching staff days are numbered.

Re: Saftey Help
 

I agree that the coaches are partly responsible for David's getting hung out to dry. However, I disagree on your assessment of our Safeties.

In 2004 and 2005, Troy Polamalu was a very good Safety. Those years, he averaged 94 tackles, 8 passes defended, and 4 picks. (He played all 16 games both seasons.)

Last year, Harper had 90 tackles, 8 passes defended, and 3 picks (not to mention 4 sacks).

Further, Bullocks had 77 tackles, 8 passes defended, and 2 picks. (And, he didn't play in two games.)

Now, before anyone gets all "how dare you compare Polamalu" to our dou--bags, I'm not comparing them in terms of quality of player, I'm merely comparing them statistically. My conclusion, these Safeties weren't all THAT bad. Sure, they struggled, and I completely agree, but before we go condemning them, we can also look at our lousy run defense and poor coaching for the reasons our Safeties looked so bad (before we say they're both garbage).

Also, before anyone goes claiming I chose Polumalu for a reason, I'll just let you know that he is the first impact Safety that came to mind.

Re: Saftey Help
 

Stats are for losers.

You need to watch the games. See how they react and read the plays. Where are they when the ball is in the air and react to it. Did you see how many times MM was *****ing at them all season?

You can also argue the point they got so many tackles because they let the WR catch the ball so all left to be had was the tackle. We have up TO MANY BIG PLAYS. You stats don't show that.

Steelers doesn't use the Saftey position like we do so its a bad comparison. They actually put there best players in position to make plays. We send them out there to run around with their heads cut off.

Re: Saftey Help
 

I looked over several other Safeties that are considered good, and they have similar stats to Polamalu.

As for stats being for losers, whatever.

I agree that these two Safeties we have are not good. I'm not sure why you can't admit they don't suck. The stats sheets contain information, even if it is summarized and subjet to some interpretation.

Finally, I have seen a good number of games, and I know full well that (unless you are present at the actual game, and for some reason not paying attention to the ball) that it is very difficult to see what the Safeties are doing on most plays. I've seen our Safeties make several mistakes, as have you I'm sure.

However, I don't think a small amount of anecdotal evidence is sufficient to write them off. They are starters on an NFL team. Could they be better? Yes. Could they be worse? Yes.

Re: Saftey Help
 

Whatever??? I love that term because its the biggest cop-out that people like to use. Stats can be read into and misleading. You can get them to say anything you want them to say.

They did suck... how may 20 plus yards were given up??? Where did the saints rank as for as other teams are in that stat??? Where are the Safties usually responsible for the 20 plus yard areas??? YEAH. Do the math and you'll see what I am talking about. They did not help the CB's nor themselves last year.

Safteys are to help the CB's and when you give up that many big plays in the passing game you have to point the finger at the safties and see how they played... which was out of position many many times. CB's can only do so much they expect help over the top and it just wasn't there.

Re: Saftey Help
 

I didn't think our run defense was lousy. On the contrary, I thought it was pretty good. It was our pass defense that sucked, not the run defense.

That being said, I think our safety play was poor. SS - average. FS - poor. IMO, we need a FS that can play better pass defense, one that has more speed, one that can make more out of blitzes, and one that can get more turnovers. Gimme that, and I think we are bonafide Superbowl contenders.

Re: Saftey Help
 

I was one hoping to upgrade at safety.

A. Harper apparently experienced a sophomore slump - hopefully he rebounds big this year. I think he will be good, he's still young.

B. All of them were caught with their pants down many many times - but honestly they did happen to make a FEW plays in all fairness.

KK at least lays licks on people, that is one plus I have for him over Josh "Wrong Place, Wrong Time" Bullocks.

Overall Safety Grade: D- Burned way too many times.

Re: Saftey Help
 

Yes run Defense was great... that was due to the DT's and DE's waiting there at the line for the RB's to come to them.

Our DL had no push, no explosion off the line to disrupt most of the time, no pass rush... but boy could they sit there and wait for the ball carrier. LOL.

Re: Saftey Help
 

I think Bullocks and Harper are two young players that play well, and are doing what the coaches tell them. I think this year will be great for them, because they have learned alot in the last couple of years. I hope they play together for the next few seasons and help the Saints win.

Re: Saftey Help
 

Hey I hope they get it together... but does't change the fact they stunk last year. If they were doing all they were suppose to be doing they WR's would have never been pass them. MM wouldn't have chewed there butts over and over again trying to tell them where and what they should have been doing.

Re: Saftey Help
 

Good point. I re-watched the Seahawks game last night. In one play, MM was covering the wideout, who did a quick out to the sideline. While this was going on, the slot receiver shot by him for the right corner of the end zone. One of the safeties (believe it was Bullocks) was supposed to tail the slot, but instead he bit on MM's receiver, leaving the other guy scott free in the end zone. When MM saw the safety going the wrong way, he switched guys, tried to get over there and cover the other guy - but it was too late. He was standing there all alone in the endzone when the ball arrived. TOUCHDOWN. You could tell MM was pissed.

We've gotta get better at safety.

Re: Saftey Help
 

I still agree that our Safeties need to improve or be replaced.

However, I now have to take issue with a number of claims:

(1) If you think that the number of plays over 20 yards is relevant, then you think some statistics are relevant. I'm sorry you didn't like the ones I gave.

(2) It is false that statistics can be made to say anything someone wants. They are representations of what happened, and certainly are open to some interpretation. However, a simple example will make my point. If the stats say that so-and-so got two interceptions in a game, no one, and I mean no one, can get that stat to say that so-and-so got three interceptions.

(3) Whether the Safeties are supposed to help the CBs, the LBs, or play on their own depends on the defensive scheme and the defensive play call. I don't see how you can claim that teh Safeties job is to help the CBs. The Safeties job is to do what they are supposed to do given the defensive play call.

I do concede the evidence given regarding MM being pissed several times. However, I don't see that this (small amount) evidence is any better than the statistical evidence I offered. Furthermore, I'm unclear on how often this happend.

I further concede that statistics are not the end all be all of analysis. This is why I didn't say that our Safeties were as good as Polumalu, despite having similar stats. However, I don't understand why it is impossible to believe they weren't that bad, given their counts on tackles, passes defended, and so on - which are about as good as any Safety currently starting in the NFL!

Perhaps there is some disagreement about the word "stunk" or "sucked"? I think that our Safeties could improve, but they are serviceable options if play at other positions improves. I don't think that amounts to "stinking." Maybe that is my mistake.

Finally,

(4) Our run defense was not great on any understanding of the word great. We did manage to be in the top third of teams with respect to yards surrendered. That is good. However, we gave up 4 yards a carry, which doesn't scrape the to half of defenses. That is not great.

I know, I know. Stats don't matter.

For those do accept stats as some (though not conclusive) evidence, I believe I've offered a case for our Safeties AS PASSABLE options.

Would I like an improvement? Again, yes.

Re: Saftey Help
 

I agree. That play happened right in front of me. I think that it was Bullocks. I was in the stands pointing at the receiver and yelling at the Safety saying "No! This guy!!! Drat!"

Re: Saftey Help
 

Harper needs experience. I think he'll have a great year.
KK needs to be the starter.
MM needs to get 100%.
David needs to be a nickel.
Our DE's could both loose 20lbs.

Re: Saftey Help
 

Heres another great example our DT's made lots of tackles... so they are great or good enough right? NO. It was obvious they couldn't explode or get to the QB. So one of them is losing their job and in comes Ellis.

You have to look at the play on the field and not go by whatever stats you want to look at. Just because someone makes a INT you have to evaluate how it was made. Was it the WR's fault? Was it the QB's? Did the saftey got lucky?

Re: Saftey Help
 

What you see on the field helps you to interpret the stats. I still agree.

I haven't thought much about our DTs. I might be willing to say they were passable, if there was sufficient evidence. However, I am inclined to agree with you that they weren't making big plays (even if they were making tackles).

Like I said, I am willing to take "what people saw" and "what I saw" as evidence. But, just like the stats, "seeings" are colored by perspective, theory, and other beliefs.

The stats tell a slightly different story from "our Safeties suck." That doesn't mean they don't - it is just evidence that they don't.

Finally, I think that it is difficult to determine if some player sucks - I think the claim about David is a prime example. One person can look very bad, if other players aren't doing what they're supposed to. Further, players can be made to look bad because of play calling, the skill of other players, and so on.

I, further, agree with you that a simple stat is difficult to interpret (such as an interception) without context. That is why we look at season stats - sure some of them can be explained away (for example it is the WRs fault), but it is difficult to explain away a regularity (like the QB threw 30 picks that season - they can't all be the fault of others).

Finally, I still maintain we need better Safeties or better play from the Safeties we have. They are by no means great.

Re: Saftey Help
 

Damn Ice, you flew all the way down to Seattle to see that game? You're a FAN! I'm glad you got to see a resounding victory at that game. We were 0-4 going into it, dead by everyones evaluation, and the Hawks were favored by about 1000 points going into that game. Then lo and behold, Reggie has three runs that are all the longest of his career at that point, and we proceeded to beat the pants off those water birds.

Congrats on being at that game!

Re: Saftey Help
 

It was euphoric. I say that because Euph and I had been posting back and forth about this game for awhile. He was disgusted with the Saints 0-4 record and how the Saints got there and I was stubborn and hoped for the best.
It was a great game. I spent $$$ to be there and the Seattle fans were mouthy before the game. Drew and the rest of the team shut them up and I looked at all the big mouths that made noise before the game. They were quiet and I was beaming. Good times.

Re: Saftey Help
 

It doesn't get any better than this. Priceless