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Pat Kirwan believes that the..
Pat Kirwan believes that the.. I now this might sound crazy
Jeremy Shockey trade could still go down. I know Jimmy Smith mentioned this in his chat and now Kirwan is also mentioning it. Where there is smoke...anyway, Kirwan offers the following: With 2009 draft picks as chips, trades are still possible -- and in some cases probable, because of the flexibility of the trade language that could be used. Now a team can trade with conditions. For example, Jeremy Shockey could be traded for a third-round choice that becomes a second if he catches 60 passes -- or even a first if he makes the Pro Bowl. Jeremy Shockey, TE, Giants. The Saints used their third-round pick to advance in the first round for Sed Ellis and probably didn't want to surrender their second-round pick and be out of the draft until pick No. 144. The Saints did not draft a tight end and could have in the second round, with Fred Davis and Martellus Bennett still on the board. I think the Saints are capable of doubling back to the Giants this spring to still get Shockey. NFL News |
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I think this Shockey thing isn't going to die until the guy retires.
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i think he might be right though.. the saints proved that they will not overpay for shockey and you know he is going to make waves after not being traded during the draft..
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What pick could we use next year? Dont we have to give the Jets anywhere from a 2nd to a 4th in 09(Vilma trade)?
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well i dont know if they can do it like this but i would offer a 3rd and in the event that our 3rd is gone to the jets then the giants would get our 2nd..
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I don't think this trade will ever go down. If it does, I would figure it would be a player for player trade. The Saints don't really need Shockey, the TE position is pretty solid as is.
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i dont know if the trade will happen but i disagree that the TE position is solid.. we have a lack of playmaking ability at the TE position.. johnson has potential but he is often injured for multiple games and he had some costly drops last year... billy miller got some good PT in but he definetly isnt the long term answer at TE.. best suited as a backup |
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True, the Saints don't have real play maker's at TE. I still believe the Saints have solid TEs. I guarantee you that most teams would love to have Johnson, Campbell, and Miller on their roster collectively. Yeah, none of these guys are projected to come anywhere close to earning a pro-bowl appearance, but they are a solid group. With the overall talent the Saints have on offense a great TE is not needed. I know a lot was said in the past about Brees wanting a dominating TE like he had in San Diego with Gates. To me that theory is way overblown. The main reason he and Gates worked out well was the Chargers at the time lacked good WRs. Anyway, if the Saints want to make a big improvement at TE, get one who can block the daylights out of a LB or blitzing safety.
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Here we go again. How can you look at our TEs and think that they are even close to solid? Two of them are broke down and the other one (Miller) is a C grade player at best. I guess the term solid means something different to me. If I were to grade our TEs with the classic A-F format it would look like this: Johnson C, Miller C-, and Campbell F-. I know there's no such thing as a F- but I just made it up. A great unit would be like an A+ and two Cs. A solid unit would have a B, a C, and whatever.
Wow, that even confused me. My point is that our TEs suck, period. We can't continue to try to sugar coat it by calling them solid. We need a playmaker there to open things up more. It's simple Xs and Os. |
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Draft Picks for Shockey is not the way to go; it would have to be players for player; barring injuries or slow injury recovery, we will have a slight excess in DB's and WR's and possibly at LB, all needs of the Giants...
A player and a fifth, progressive to a fourth if a draft pick were necessary... And don't discount the Chad Johnson Situation, who's represented by Pit Viper aka Drew Rosenhaus. Giants would like to avoid that distraction in NY Media by Shockey also represented by DR... After winning Superbowl, Reese can avoid to give a discount... |
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Our TE position is far from solid, I think they would've drafted a TE if they felt that there was no way this trade could still happen. We will see.
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I love the strategy Payton is using to get Shockey...
And whoever thinks we don't need a Probowl TE on our roster is crazy. Shockey is no alter boy, but he's one hell of a fine football player. |
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Whoa, Eric Johnson stat wise was 11th vs all NFL TE's last year. Considering he was hurt part of the year that is not to bad for a TE that is not "solid". Shockey was 8th and he played in more games then Johnson. On paper anyway the gap is not as large as you might think. The knock on Shockey is that he's not a great run/blocker which you might apply to our current stable of TE. So how does adding Shockey help us in that aspect? I think this is a player that Payton thinks can help open up the Passing game which I don't think is where the O needs help. Maybe Payton thinks Shockey can help open the middle if he has the SS/LB in coverage which equates into helping the run? I think my point is why give up high picks for Shockey when he's not the game changer that say a Moss is.
NFL Stats: by Player Position |
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Let's talk about speed. Shockey has all of our TE's beat there... He's a guy that draws a lot of attention off the line. How much better would he make all of our other O weapons when they're defended one-on-one?
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Good point .....Eric Johnson is plenty serviceable and good enough ...... when he is healthy ..... has he been healthy an entire season yet? Giants found Boss in the seventh round ... we can do the same and not trade the farm! :handguns: |
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I agree with Kirwan.
The Saints FO is actually going about it the right way here. It is not about the compensation, but how comfortable Eli is with Shockey in the lineup. If the Giants front office and coaches believe that Sockey is a detriment to Eli's leadership and development, they will deal Shockey, and the closer it gets to the season without a trade, the price will go lower and lower. |
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Ok Guys and Gals,
Lets break this down. Johnson and Miller both are classified as balanced/hands TE's not blocking TE's. Miller has better hands and speed where Johnson is a bigger target and runs better routes. While Johnson is better at pass/run blocking than Miller...neither are consistent enough to get the job done in that area. We are not even going to discuss Campbell...moot point. Even though these TE's are considered to be better receivers than blockers they can still be covered by most if not all LB's in the business. This leaves Safeties free to roam to head hunt our receivers. Shockey on the other hand is a more balanced TE that has decent route running skill, great hands and can block on a more consistent basis than all three of our current TE's. Shockey will draw constant attention up the middle from either strong or free safety and will open up the corner and fade routes down the sidelines. Why do you think Plaxico had some many long TD's this season down the sidelines. I will concur that Johnson was ranked 11th and Shockey only 8th but you have to look at the whole picture. With our receivers double covered the majority of time leaving LB's to cover Johnson/Miller it is a no brainer for Brees to throw the TE route when he is in man-on-man with a LB. The only problem is is that those passes were being dropped too often or being batted by the LB. Throw Shockey in the mix and that pulls safety help in the middle leaving one-on-one coverage on one of the receivers. Another thing this could force is more defense's to play us in Zone coverage instead of Man-to-Man and this meens less blitzes and softer coverage. We all know what Brees will do with that combination. I do not believe that the FO would have drafted a TE even if the Shockey trade was completely dead due to the fact that no TE on the board at the round 2 spot would have given them a definite upgrade over Johnson or Miller. You don't draft for position unless it is a need or you can guarantee an upgrade over current players. This being said I think Shockey would be a good addition but not necessary unless the price is right. You have to remember that he will require a large contract to keep him and there is this little thing called a salary cap that the FO has to deal with also. Will Smith is wanting a contract negotiation and given the choice over paying Shockey or Smith...I'll take Smith any day. Best Offense is a good Defense. Our offense is strong if they can get on the field. The defense could not get off the field last year due to a poor secondary. Fix this hole first...then tweak the rest. |
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I'm not sure what I think about our current TEs. Shockey would be an upgrade though; I think it would be difficult to deny this. I suppose, the question might be this - what is this upgrade worth? Our offense is arguably quite good, even with the bunch of TEs we have. So long as Colston is healthy, it isn't like we need a possession receiver. What critical role does the TE play then? Blocker? Interior threat? Don't get me wrong, I still think that Shockey is an upgrade and will make us better. The question is this: how much better do we need to be on Offense to win the big game? If the answer is "not very much" then I don't see a critical need to upgrade at TE. If the answer is "a lot", then an upgrade at TE might be something very important. Again, I'd be pretty pleased to see Shockey on this squad, especially if the price is a 3rd rounder or less. |
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Nice post, jewagr. That is a good analysis.
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Welcome to B&G, thanks for agreeing with my earlier post on Shockey and nice mug-shot.
Our defense couldn't get off the field because, well, I'll just let Euphoria introduce himself to you... LOL |
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I agree, Shockey would be a great addition. I don't think we are going to get him though. I would be suprised if he isn't in a Giant uniform this season. Maybe we can trade our RT (Poopcomb msp?) and a 5th for him. That might make since. |
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What's up with all the Mark Campbell hate? He was injured last year, is that why he's an "F" or why he's been dismissed in posts?
The Saints run game was doing poorly before Deuce's injury last year. The difference between the 2006 offense and the 2007 offense was that Campbell wasn't playing. He's no Shockey in terms of talent but I think that Campbell deserves a little credit. Quote:
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he is not here and I am banking he does not get here this year. Let him drive himself out of NY on his own. Then pick him up. Ice is right he is not worth the price they were asking.
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i disagree...i think on a talent and consistancy standpoint he has been atop the NFL for the past few years and has been consistantly showing up on film and game highlights...theres a reason for that...he has the talent to step into the saints organization and become an immediate upgrade....an immediate favorite target...payton is a master of the short pass offense....the best target for that is a TE....thats why colston flourished here....he is huge....he is strong..and he can catch like the dickens...if he gets hit the ball isnt coming out...shockey has similar traits in that he can take a hit from a linebacker as he's going over the middle for his bajillionth catch of the season
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Shockey and Johnson werent to many catches apart. Johnson was ranked 11th in receptions but if you look at yardage he is alot closer to Miller.
Shockey is ranked 7th in yardage and 8th in receptions. Johnson is 11th in receptions and 24th in yardage compared with Miller at 26th in yardage. Johnson caught 21 more passes and gained 50 more yards than Miller. Johnson plays a role in the passing game similiar to Bush, sit at the line of scrimage and be a dump-off for Brees. Not much of a downfield threat from Johnson, but he woulda been productive in the redzone had he caught a couple of those passes in the endzone. Not much of a difference Shockey had 619 yds with 10.9 avg. Johnson caught alot of balls 378 yds with a 7.9 avg. I guess the biggest difference is Shockey gets a 1st down and with Johnson we get to line up our powerback R Bush on 2nd and 2, 3rd and 2, punt. |
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Factors to consider in all this...
One, Shockey was most productive as a Rookie, when, yep, Sean Peyton was calling the plays... Two, Shockey will be out to prove he's a team player and that he can be a reason for a Super Bowl Championship... Three, Shockey did not attend ceremonies to receive the SuperBowl Champion Giants at the White House... Four, The Chad Johnson situation, despite how ridiculous Drew Rosenhaus' client has looked, has been a nightmare for the Bengals must give Giants Jerry Reese pause to deal with Rosenhaus' client on his team... Five, As good as Mark Campbell is (and make no mistake that the TE is the difference between a good and great running game) has missed significant playing time in his career... Six, if Reggie Bush is going to jump to the next level of a producer like Brian Westbrook, the TE is going to have to aid in spreading the field... Lastly, whether on or off the field, Saints Marketing knows this... Shockey draws a crowd. I submit the attention given to the Shockey threads in this forum as evidence... |
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He does sell tickets and get the cameras turned thats for sure. Good point. Always nice to add national media draw to the team. Saints vs. Gaints NFC championship game? Shockey would be heck of a story line for them to run into the ground
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Shockey has been nothing but a locker room cancer. They didn't need him to win the SB last year so why the hell do we need him to win one? He'll be more of a distraction. If the Giants want to move him so bad here is a 4th. You don't like it then cut him. So he doesn't show up to camp - again. He'll show up to play in games and then the Giants will be left with the fear of him walking into the dressing room. Have fun Giants. Now I am ok if he shows up for camp and doesn't bring the BS. But our team has shown there has to be consistancy and gel in order to win. Hince why we go on winning streaks and losing streaks. |
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Who cares about next years draft pick if we go to the SB with Shockeys help? I don't care if we had thirty 1st round picks, if we got this guy and he got another ring with us, shied. Hell I'd give all the nfl teams a 1st round pick compliments of the Saints.
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Houma...what a sespool.
this place has turned into trash before my very eyes |
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lol...i think shockey is worth just about ne thing that we would give for him...he instantly makes our offense so much better....i dont wanna give away all our first rounders cuz he isnt worth them...but i am completely in favor of doing just about ne thing we can to get him
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Houma is not a sespool....just needs chlorine....lol |
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11th vs all TE's SEEMS solid, except for the large amount of drops and deflections leading to interceptions that Johnson had last season. Had Shockey been in Johnson's place, he would have been in the top 5 TEs. What bothers me most about Johnson though, is that I don't think that he is not talented. I think he could be good TE. The fact that he wasn't, when the chips were down, says bad things. There is no good excuse why Johnson was not in the top 5 TEs last year, even with his injury. Shockey may not be able to open up the offense like Randy Moss does, but at the same time, I don't think we need a booster shot as big as Randy Moss to turn us into the top offense in this league. A Shockey sized booster shot, to give opposing players and coaches ANOTHER threat to worry about aside from Colston AND Bush and hopefully Meach and Deuce too. We don't need the Super Heavy Weights. Shockey could be the straw that breaks the opposing D's backs. And don't even start on character. I would hope our leadership can handle something as simple as a guy who speaks his mind. It isn't like he is Pacman Jones. Bring Shockey to New Orleans! |
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Next years second maybe. now we hold out till draft time next and let the Gaints gamble on shocky's rehab. Next years 2nd better be lower, Oh yeah we may not have one. The NYJ might have it. Wonder if a low third would work? Face it the gaints blew it with us. there is no way next years offer from us will as good. Unless we are talking about putting Brown into the equation. He is the only player I see that we can get a second rounder for that would work in NY and not hurt us. Unless in round 1 we go FS and let Harper go.
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Nice point Memnoch.
It is an interesting idea to pair the QB (and offense in general) with the TE in an evaluation of his statistical ranking. |
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