Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

naw mem.....im not a college scout of players....i scout teams coming up on our schedule....usually when i scout teams players jump out at me.....i dont scout for the draft or ne thing....but....i am not a genious...but most of the coaches in the nfl are....most of the ppl in the front office are even smarter...if that manny ppl passed on PT in the draft its because he seriously lacked something coming out of college that is needed to be a starter in the NFL...idk what it was...but it was something....Tony Romo was a freak accident....Marques Colston was a freak accident....i think we have the mindset that since we drafted Colston that all of our picks will pan out...hopefully they do....but if they dont it just shows that even draft picks arent guarenteed....so...if they arent even guarenteed....what makes u think that an undrafted guy can be?....lets see....32 teams....45 players on each team....1440 players in the entire league not including practice squad....how many do u think start as undrafted free agents?.....maybe 30?....maybe....and thats including starters on ST

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

Saying someone is a "freak accident" is a cop-out.

Not many players make it as undrafted players - but the ones that do are not "accidents", they're talented guys who were overlooked for whatever reason.
Fast Willie Parker is much more productive than Cedric Benson. On draft day, it might have been "obvious" to those who put a lot of stock in draft position that Benson was better - after all, 30+ teams passed on Parker through 7 rounds, so he's "obviously" not very good!

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

ok with reference to willie parker and tony romo specifically....i dont think they would be the players they are today had it not been for great player to player mentorship and the teaching of position coaches as well as others....i think that the system a player falls into may have a lot to do with the success of the player....case in point pierre..but lets take this a step further...reggie could have been a bust...it has yet to be seen...but granted payton is a great designing and drawing up plays to utilize the talents available...specifically reggie....we have arguably mastered the reverse and the end around with our slots and reggie....its easy to say that another team would have run him up the middle a few times...noticed he cant do it very well and given up on him.....i think our team is great at developing offenses for our players....i think that in another system PT may not work out...but i think in Pittsburgh just about ne running back would work....i dont know if New Orleans is the best place for PT but that still remains to be seen....he has not proven ne thing....he has shown he has and upside and a great amount of potential but he is not yet a threat in the NFL...that will hopefully be seen this year

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

with argument to ur cedric benson statement...he was a threat...in '06...he had thomas jones to take some of the pressure off....when benson was asked to do it himself he was not able to....parker has the same sort of position in pitt....he does not have to carry the load because of the plethera of depth and talent in the pittsburgh RB rotation....besides...when u play pittsburgh u know what they are going to do...they are going to run the ball down ur throat and they dont care how....they do it because of their line....im afraid however with the departure of alan faneca that the decline of the steelers in evident and very probable for the near future

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

Re: One Game Wonders...

Yes Mendenhall was behind PT on the depth chart at Illinois...

And Yes he had a good game...

But I remember the Saints making Flipper Anderson look like AllWorld in one game, and he did what over the course of his career?!?

We needed to draft a RB in R1, but we also needed to draft a DL even more...

You make do with what you got and you make moves that improve your team...

But, if last season didn't teach Saints Fans anything it's this...you can never have too many good RB's and a good Line...

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

i agree with almost everything u said...the defense was more of a problem that NEEDED to be dealt with....the RB position is not so much a need position as it is a wait and see position...we dont know how duece will come out of the injury...i think that if he comes out healthy that makes our RB tandum that much better....if he doesnt produce this season i think we draft a running back next year in the first round....i like the depth at RB right now....PT stepped up and did his job when we called his number....i dont know how consistantly he will be able to do that for us however....and if he doesnt do it consistantly then he wont be tradeable...but if he does...then its possible we will shop him

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

I think it is more realistic that PT will be a member of the Saints than trade bait for a late round pick. Especially if you consider 2 of our 4 RBs in the final years of their careers. I really hope Deuce has one more year left in those surgically repaired knees but I hope for his sake he calls it quits after that so he will be able to walk around and enjoy the rest of his life and not spend it in a wheelchair. I think Steckers one year contract sums up how much he has left in the tank.

What has PT done to justify being in the NFL after not being drafted? First he accepted a tryout for the Saints. Other teams also contacted PT but he choose the Saints. Lets see undrafted RB decides to try out for a team with 2 1st round RB and a newly drafted 4th rounder the team traded up to get. PT must have had a little confidence in his ability to think he could come here and make the team in a position that at the time seemed full of depth.

When given the opportunity PT has shown he can be a RB at this level. Preseason (I know preseason WTF) PT made us all fans and we all wondered why he wasnt given a shot to make some plays during the year especially when the running disappeared. Well in making the most out of your opportunities as our 4th string RB in your only start of the year congrats to PT as the only Saints RB EVER to rush for 100yds and catch for 100yds in the same game.

Is stecker tradeable?

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

No he will be to busy training PT to do his job. Heck they can have a 4 year schooling program as far as I am concerned. To me the #3/#4 RB position is in great shape. It is one of the positions I am not worried about. Who knows PT may become the solid #2/#3 we need. But for now I am happy that both are on the team. Why break this marriage up?

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

I'm going to take you to task on this statement. The Saints drafted a RB #2 just 2 years ago. Their RB corps is productive all the way down to the 4th string guy. Deuce, Reggie, and Stecker all being hurt at the same time was a fluke, not an expectation.

With all the needs this team has, and the fact that the Saints offense has been in the top 5 offenses in the league for the past 2 years simply does not point to the need for a first round draft pick at RB.

If you haven't noticed, the engine of the Saints offense is Drew Brees. The running game is a complement, not a primary motivator.

I totally disagree that the Saints needed a first round draft pick at RB.

Ya'll have this man crush on Deuce as if he carries the offense. Let me clue you into his stat line for 2006, when the Saints were the #1 offense in the league:

244 rushes, 1057 yards, 4.3 YPC

Dude, that's not even a pro bowl season, much less a man crush one.

The bottom line is that the Saints offense needs a productive running game. All the explosiveness will come from the passing game.

SFIAH

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

Ok lets take things out of context here. Duce by no means was carrying the offense in 2006. The system has changed. This is a west coast offense so the RB will never be the featured part of the system.
Roger Craigs carrier average was 4.1 YPC.
4x Pro Bowl
1985, 4.9
1987, 3.8
1988, 4.8
1989,3.9
Then again he did not have a RB like Bush sharing the backfield with him.
So the fact I think he was one of the best all around backs in history is unjust?

Now take a standard offense and one of the all tim greats
Walter Payton was named both All-Pro and All-NFC seven times and played in nine Pro Bowl games. Payton was selected as the NFL's Most Valuable Player in 1977 and 1985, the NFL Offensive Player of the Year in 1977 and 1985 and the NFC Most Valuable Player in 1977.
1977 5.5
1985 4.8
1976, 4.5
1977, 5.5
1978, 4.2
1979, 4.4
1980, 4.6
1983, 4.5
1984, 4.4
1985, 4.8
1986, 4.2

This sounds like type of RB you want. But that kind of RB will never get the carries needed either to put up those numbers. We are talking 13 to 1600 yards a season here. Thats with over 300 carries a year. Craig broke the 300 carries mark just once in his career.
In 2006 we had 472 rushes and 372 passes. Duce averaged 4.3 on 244 rushes. Not bad. I will take that all day long.

Two different system and two different types of back. Both pro bowlers

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

the fact is that every team needs a solid running game....the idea of our offense in '06 was to compliment our passing game well with a solid run game....in '07 it dropped off obviously because of injury but mostly because we were without duece....when our #1 was hurt it was obvious what we were going to do....we had to pass.....when duece is healthy we dont have to....with duece in there he allows flexability of our offense...we can end around with reggie or we can swing pass or quick 3 step drop or run up the middle or sweep....he allows up to do so much just by being on the field...there isnt another running back on our squad that allows us the flexability of all that just by simply being on the field....duece helps reggie by making the defense take care of the middle and then that leaves reggie 1-1 on the outside and usually he wins those....duece doesnt have to carry the offense to be a vital part of it....all he simply has to do is be on the field....when he was hurt last year he couldnt do that...the fact that we drafted reggie in '05 doesnt really matter because he wasnt meant to be our starting running back....he was meant to be a satellite from day 1....reggie is an outstanding player but he was never a true RB....if a team needs a RB they go after him in round 1...idk if its a need position yet but when we decide it is....we will be drafting one in the 1st round

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

i would trade Bush before i traded Thomas.

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

Ha haaaa haaaaa :rolleyes: Sure.

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

Really??!?

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

You use solid, I use productive. It means the same thing.
The problem here is that I always use numbers to back up claims like that. New Orleans Saints Team Encyclopedia - Pro-Football-Reference.com will give you all the Saints stats for any year you like. So let's compare the seasons:

2006: 472 rushes for 1761 yards 3.7 YPC 110 YPG

2007: 392 rushes for 1466 yards 3.7 YPC 91 YPG

So the crew averaged 5 less rushes per game and 20 less yards per game. Yet the YPC was exactly the same both years.
Those pesky statistics again. Brees had 580 attempts in 2006 and 652 in 2007. Only 4.5 attempts per game more.

So I guess the Saints had to pass in 2006 when Deuce played all 16 games too?

I presume you meant that Reggie wasn't meant to be our starting RB. That's still an open question.

The mistake I think you're making here is thinking that Deuce is the reason for all this flexibility. I believe it's that power I tailback slot that creates that flexibility, not the player. You have all the right reasons listed above. But I don't think that it's the player that creates the mismatches for Reggie, but having a productive back in that slot.

When Deuce got hurt Reggie moved into that power I back slot. He's much easier to contain from there because now you don't have him out on the slot or on the edge creating mismatches as he can't be two places at once.

There's no reason to think that PT23 can't get 200 rushes @ 5 YPC from the power I slot. That's productive and leaves Reggie to roam around the offense creating mismatches.

But in the end it's simply a reiteration of what I started with. The Saints' offense is a two back system where both back combine to create a productive and flexible running game.

We don't need a first round pick to to couple with Reggie to make that system work. And it doesn't have to be Deuce all the time in that slot.

Rotate all 4 guys. They can all catch, they can all block, they can all run, they can be interchangable in Paytons two back offense.

SFIAH

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

I really believe, that at the price, and since he did show some really good signs last year that even if PT was tradeable, I don't think we would want to. We all hope Deuce returns to the back he has always been, but even if he is 100% healthy the next couple of years, we have to begin looking to the future. PT is a young back and being mentored by Deuce while hopefully getting an increase in playing time could be nothing but a good thing for New Orleans.

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

the thing about statistics is that they dont always show how a team plays....they show the outcome...but they wont show that a linebacker was man up against reggie or if a safety had to cover him instead...it wont show that the linebacker jumped on a play fake cuz duece is a real threat up the gut...u make very good points using stats and usually i love ppl that back up claims with facts and figures...however in this case....its more about overall value than it is stats....also...with the passing and rushing stats from the past 2 years....i agree we only passed a few more times.....but the run vs pass was different.....meaning...we knew in '06 that we had a guy to run up the middle and pound out those last few yards where as in '07 we didnt have that reassurance....we had to make up for it by passing those 4.5 more times or w/e u said it was....that could've meant the difference between another field goal or a first down etc...do u see where im going with this?....maybe not...maybe im just rambling....do i have a point or am i completely off the wall....i tend to do that sometimes too

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

hehe now thats funny...
not to poke fun cantonlegend but most genious' spell it genius ;)

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

its all in good fun...i said i wasnt and i never claimed to be lol....i like the ability of ppl in this forum to go from being die hard and angry to jokin around with each other...thats why i love this forum so much...u guys are a great group of ppl to talk to and debate with

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

Canton,

Close your eyes and repeat after me. It's time once again for the SFIAH mantra:

The Saints lost in 2007 because the defense was awful.

26th in the league in defense.

The Saints lost in 2007 because the defense was awful.

32 passing TD given up.

The Saints lost in 2007 because the defense was awful.

30th against the pass.

The Saints lost in 2007 because the defense was awful.

Jason David. Nuff Said.

The Saints lost in 2007 because the defense was awful.

No pass rush.

The Saints lost in 2007 because the defense was awful.

Limited sacks

The Saints lost in 2007 because the defense was awful.

54 pass plays of 20 yards or more.

The Saints lost in 2007 because the defense was awful.

15 plays of 40 yards or more (tied for league high).

The Saints lost in 2007 because the defense was awful.

Made an insurance salesman (Redmond) and a rookie (Gray) look like Joe Montana.

The Saints lost in 2007 because the defense was awful.

Did not generate enough turnovers.

OK. Now you can open your eyes.

The Saints were slinging the ball all over the field because they were behind a lot of the time. Brees threw 18 picks because they were behind a lot of the time. The Saints didn't run the ball because they were behind a lot of time.

This offense finished 4th in yards and 12th in scoring last year. By the end of the year they were on their 4th back. In that game the offense still scored 25 points.

Of course they lost because the defense gave up 33.

If the Saints defense had improved their bad numbers by 50 percent, the team would have gone 11-5, and won the South.

As I keep saying, it's not about the running game, or the TE, or the receivers, or the O-line, or about anything on offense. If the Saints offense can only cut down on the turnovers, they'll be in the top 3 in yards and scoring once again.

We have the backs to keep defenses honest. That's all that needs to be done.

Just remember the mantra.

SFIAH

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

so...what you're really trying to say is that we lost in 2007 because our defense was awful?

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

SFIAH, i actually read all of that....and i didnt say that the defense was good...everybody agrees that our defense was terrible and thats an understatement.....what i did say is that matchups on offense were different having reggie in the slot with duece in the backfield as opposed to just PT in the backfield

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

You believe that the matchups are different. But there's very little supporting evidence to support that observation. As I said in another post, Deuce going down moved Bush into the I back position. That was the loss of flexibility.

I assert once again with my Chicago game as evidence, that PT23 can be productive in that I back position, and be productive enough to free Bush to go back to being the X factor.

SFIAH

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

PT didnt have reggie at all in that game so u cant use that as an example....PT was all alone and he did what we needed...there isnt evidence other than game films showing who was open on routes....and even then its difficult to see because drew often gets rid of the ball when he finds the open man...he doesnt wait for a safety to come up and cover the slot or RB in the flats

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

Your quote:

Now don't you think that if he can pull it off by himself, that he definitely can fill the slot when coupled with Bush?

SFIAH

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

not based on one game.. i dont... i want to see it over the course of a full season before i start claiming him to be the next big thing...

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

agreed Pak. I think the chicago game gave him the right to play more and thats it. He earned his shot at more playing time. Thats all.

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

its possible that we trade him but its not likely at all. he showcased his talent in the bears game last season. he showed that he can be a true number 1. we will get to see a lot more of him this year. if he is worth ne thing it will be seen this year. for the money we are paying him he will be a saint for a few years at least simply because he'll be productive and inexpensive

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

i think he showed that he deserves some more playing time.. not that he can be a true #1... if he can keep producing like that over the course of a whole season then we will know if he can be a true #1 or not...


alot of people who like PT have written off reggie as being an everydown back which i think is a crazy thing to do... when reggie is on the field he is the most watched player out there.. and u cant argue that...

while PT is a relatively unknown player who most likely wasnt a huge threat, he performed very well in the bears game and i applaude him for that.. but im not going to say he should be our #1 based on one game and him being a relative unknown threat at the time...

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

Deuce is getting up there, we should keep Pierre as Deuce's replacement. Deuce will not be around for long..... and if Reggie keeps running the ball the way he has been, we will need a RB.

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

Pierre is not going to be deuces replacement.. everyone keeps saying that like he will be a bruising pounding RB.. he isnt that type of back.. hes the same height as reggie and 5 lbs heavier... he isnt a bruiser...

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

Which of our 4 RB had a YPC over 4 yards?

Our 2nd overall pick? No it wasnt Reggie.

Our other 1st round pick? No Deuce went out early with a injury

Our 3rd down back? Nope it wasnt Stecker.

Our undrafted 4th string RB? PT had the highest average per carry so he is my obvious choice to be traded or maybe just cut from the team. I dont care how he became a Saint or where he went to college if he can average 4.5 YPC I say give him a couple more chances and get him involved in some games a little earlier in the season.

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

All I want out of PT is a solid #3 for the future. If we get him up to the #2 position we got on of the best steals in draft history. No one and I mean no one will ever replace Duce. But we do need to keep our eyes open. The clock is ticking.

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

pierre wont be dueces replacement but there is no doubt that the kid has talent. Reggie isnt an everydown back. if he was he would have more TDs than fumbles. everydown backs dont fumble that much. i hope he secures the ball more this season because that will mean he has an even bigger upside than he did when we drafted him. PT isnt a pounder tho but i dont think he needed to be to be effective last season. he did more or less exactly what stecker did. PT and stecker could be a good 1-2 punch but without a true knockout starter like duece or reggie we wont have that great run game that we've prided ourself on

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

Well, I hope you guys are wrong, because if PT can't hang replacing Deuce and the Coaches and FO really expected Deuce's knees to hold up all season long and had no backup plan at all, then I will be leading the mob with pitchforks and torches to Metaire

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

despite everything i gotta agree with u....we gotta have a backup for deuce...if PT cant do it we are in trouble...i'd love for him to be there for us like u think he can....but i just dont see it....i think everybody is with u tho....we want him to be the replacement but only if he steps up and continues on pace

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

You guys keep mistaking me for a PT believer or a PT fan. I am not saying that I believe in PT as a starting RB, I am saying I think the coaches believe he is a starting RB. That is it. There are too many question marks around Deuce for the coaches to have no backup plan. PT is of a comparable size with Deuce, he may have a different running style, but I think PT will have a much easier time up the middle than Reggie. Not really because of size or strength, but because of mentality. Reggie is the wind. He is an uncatchable object, not an irresistable force.

And, the one thing no one has mentioned, we have Karney too. We would need a bit more help blocking in Karney playing the hammer in short/goals... No wonder Payton wants Shockey so much! Now I really get it.

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

wow.....i found this while looking through some old posts

i bet PT has some trade value today

holy crap was i wrong about everything

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

That's mighty big of you Canton. Yeah, he still might work out.;)

Re: Is pierre tradeable?
 

cheese louise, Canton, I thought you'd lost your mind.

This is a thread from last year, ok... now it makes sense.

Tell yall what, that twist/spin move into the endzone vs. Patriots
on the screen was a fantastic move. Its a shame the greatness
of that move by Pierre got lost in all the excitement. Amazing move,
and quite underrated.

PT was actually one of the few consistent ones on my fantasy team.