Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

No it is not urgency as much a accepting facts. 3 years of draft and FA have upgraded a lot of positions but there still some areas that need to be addressed. You listed some. They will come. maybe this yrar we can see an improvement in TE production with the group we have or we may add a player before the season starts to help out. As for the TE position I would love to have draft one but the trade in the first killed that idea. I had my eyes on
Martellus Bennett , Texas A&M Decent route runner..Above average blocker..serious raw talent ...considerable upside
I was hoping the third but he never made it out of the second. besides after the trades we never had a shoot any of them. By the time the fifth round came around all the good TE were done. Oh well so be it. I like the trade and the pick and the in the second. So that position will have to wait. Same goes for RB and FS. So we took the players we could and made the most of those picks. We used the day two pick on players that could produce on the field and not go with alot of projects. Good job all in all.
So we have to wait and see what may come available from now till kick off and then we may see a new face or two. If not next year will have to be the year to make the move. So be it. Year 3 of rebuilding is off to a good start.The window will be open for a few more years yet. No reason to panic now.

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

The moves we made on defense certainly DO give us the chance to play with elite teams. Watch a replay of the Super Bowl to see what a consistent pass rush can do against an elite team. Outside of breaking the bank for Asante Samuel (who some call a Cover 2 scheme CB as well), you are not going to get an instant upgrade at the CB position. We signed a consistent player at the position (Gay), a craft veteran (Glenn), and drafted a rookie with a ton of upside (Porter). And you give David and Young another year in the system plus a better pass rush which can make mediocre corners (Giants) into quality defenders. Not to mention you draft Ellis and sign Vilma which upgrades your run stopping defense allowing your safeties to play less in the box and not as susceptible to biting on play action.

Enough said about the RBs. We are fine. Unless you took Stewart and maybe Mendenhall in the first round, there was not a surplus of bruising backs. I love Matt Forte and he will be a great player but you make a very simple mistake in equating 220 to a powerful runner. It takes a lot more than bulk to be able to run through the tackles (See TJ Duckett).

Again, what player in the draft would you have taken at TE that could come in and be a consistent blocker and receiver in the offense from day 1. NO ONE. The best TE in the draft was Keller and he has several years of development ahead of him to refine his blocking skills.

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

It really is hard to give any blame for last year on the offense. After our starting RB, then our #2 rb, then our #3 RB goes down we finish the year as the 4th best offense in the league. The reason Brees now has the record for most attempts and completions in a year is due to our defense as much as anything.

The comment about 3rd down stats caused me to check out some stats.
2006 ranked 3rd on 3rd down percentage

2007 tied with 2 others at 4th on 3rd down percentage

Well that might be a huge issue for the Saints and might cause some concern if not for the fact that we got better in 2007 compared to 2006.
2006 converted on 45% of 3rd down attempts

2007 converted on 46% of 3rd down attempts

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

I started this thread with a question about the team's lack of depth at RB, TE and DB.

Starting RB: Deuce ( 2 ACL, 1 Microfracture surgery )
Starting TE: Eric Johnson ( Knee )
Starting CB: McKenzie ( ACL )

IMO, the Saints are scary thin at these key positions and the failure to address the problem in Free Agency and the Draft, will be a major factor in 08.

The competition we will face this year is very strong.

I am a big Saints fan, believe it or not and I sincerely hope that I am wrong and that those of you who disagreed with me are right.

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

Every Saints fan knows the Saints secondary sucked big time.

Question is, how best to correct the problem?

If you do this through the Draft, you are looking at a couple of years of development.

I believe that CB should have been addressed in Free Agency, not the Draft, so as to have an immediate impact.

You are too caught up in the offensive stats, which do not equal wins.

The 07 Offense could not run the ball consistently, so they had to pass. That is why the stats were off the hook. Good offenses are not forced to go one-dimensional. The O should dictate to the D, if they are well balanced.

The O needed help too. A big bruiser RB and a bigger, blocking and catching TE, to keep opposing defenses honest.

I like PT and Stecker to come in and spell the starter, but not as every down backs.

Another TE in Free Agency and a big RB in the 2nd round of the Draft, would have been my preference. ( JMO )

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

Reggie is a perimeter runner. PT and Stecker are decent players. They are NOT starters. PT may turn into a Westbrook-type, which would help provide a change of pace.



If they are the answer at TE, then why only sign them for one year, league minimum contracts?



Hall, Trufant, Samuels, Sheppard, Asomugha. And there were many second tier corners that were available, if we had wanted to make a move.

Stop signing unwanted vets and drafting rookies. Go get some talent to start now.


Your optimism is wonderful. But we need healthy, starting-caliber players at RB / TE / DB, ready to play in game one versus Tampa.

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

We are nowhere near fine. The 07 running game sucked and we have done nothing to improve it.

I liked Stewart, Forte, Felix Jones and Kevin Smith, and there were others available about Deuce's size, who run with power.

I would have preferred taking one of these runners in round 2, in place of yet another rookie corner.

You commented that our secondary problems were more of a D-Line problem, and I agree with that. Since we upgraded the D-Line, why not give the current secondary another shot at stepping up their game?

Don't waste a precious Draft Pick on another rookie corner!!



I don't agree with you on Keller. He was not much more than a bulked-up wide-out. I would have picked a really big, strong TE, with a history of being able to stay on the field, whether blocking or catching. Primarily blocking then go from there.
This is so important in short yardage and goal line situations.

Heath Miller, Jason Witten, and so on. That type of TE.

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

I thought football was a team game. I could be wrong. One reason both Bullocks and Harper weren't effective last year, not to mention David, is we had an average pass rush, lousy run D and average LBs. This clearly will change this year: McCray as a 3rd pass rusher on 3rd downs, Ellis to help Thomas clog the middle and pressure the passer and if only one of the two free agent LBs - Vilma or Morgan - plug an LB position, you will see less pressure on the DB's. McKenzie, by the way, is according to all reports, doing great and is expected to be back by Game 1.
Last year's drops by Eric Johnson, IMHO, were because he couldn't hold onto the ball as he was being hit. Call it gun shy, but it's what we pay huge TEs for. If he can either shake free or concentrate and if he juggles passes, at least juggle them into the ground instead of into INTs, we'll be o.k. with him and Miller.
The real worry I have is whether or not Deuce can be effective. It's a lot to ask of PT to be a reliable RB every game, instead of the fresh legs he had in the meaningless(to both teams) Bears game. Don't get me wrong; I've been a PT supporter as far back as early in '07, but Stecker has been more reliable in the long run.
We will all be surprised at what Porter will do for this team. He can cover, he can leap, he can and will tackle(despite the reports you read ad nauseum that he shies away from tackling. I followed his Indiana career stats: 2004-22,2005-48,2006-59,2007-83
And these don't include assisted tackles!
And he is a terrific punt returner, as well. Remember, if we don't have a bonafide game-breaking PR, Reggie has to fill in as well as his RB role and over a season, without a first-class RB like Deuce playing regularly, it will take its toll.

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

REALLY?.......where did u hear that....all ive heard from several sources is he'll be back mid-season....if that is true then that makes our defense even better....mike is a great DB in our system....he helps out our safeties a lot with his man coverage ability

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

stecker has always been a great backup...never a quality starter but arguable the best backup in the league...PT is just a younger version of the best backup in the league lol...thats a good tandum there in itself

he needs a spy on him every single play....by spy i mean man coverage from a LB, S, CB etc.....he needs someone covering him specifically every play or he will single handidly beat u....yes he is that much of a threat


while i think upgrading the TE spot with a shockey talent....not necessarily him but a receiving TE would greatly help our team....its not really necessary as Pak has pointed out....we dont need a better TE because even back with Ernie Conwell we didnt have a great TE but he was good enough to play and catch when we needed him to

agreed....i think jason david had a lot of balls over his head because he had played in cover 2 for so long.....in cover 2 u have help from safeties and can cheat up on passes....he was used to having safety help which isnt always the case in our defense....now that he is more used to our defense and our requirements at the position i am sure he will step his game up....we didnt bring him in cuz he was bad....he just didnt understand what he needed to do


not necessarily in that order but yes...exactly

by bringing in who? lol...one of the only disagreements i have with this....we lost faine who was a good center and a good enough blocker in the middle to anchor the line....i liked faine but who did we bring in to replace him?..nobody lol...maybe lehr but it looks like hes goin to compete at LG....i dont think goodwin is a sizeable replacement and i hope alex mack stays healthy and falls to us in the draft next year....ne way...i think C is the only line position we need right now cuz of all the depth and youth at G and T

our D is much improved...no arguing with that...all the defensive positions minus the S has been upgraded...and Payton likes our safeties as i've stated before..our D will be head above last years D

i think brunell is a sizeable backup...not too many teams have the depth at QB that we do....they dont have 2 starting caliber QBs.....brunell is no doubt past his prime but he isnt completely lost either....i think he has enough in his tank for a good backup season this year and next....as far as receivers go....meachem will play this year and show y we drafted him in the first round last year....im impressed when i watch his college games on film unlike arrington....i like meachem at WR this year opposite colston and patten in the slot....he played great at wideout last year and moving him to the slot will only make him that much better

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

oh boy u'll get a lot of heat for this post but i'll go easy....i dont like the porter pick probly just as much as u but...we needed a CB in the draft...if we went away from the draft without one we wouldnt have been praised nearly as much.....TE wasnt a need position...i think a lot of the hype from us "needing" a TE was from the shockey trade....i dont think we "needed" one...i just think it could be upgraded.....jason witten and heath miller are good TEs used properly in their systems....our TEs arent as talented as either of them but that doesnt stop us from using them....they will get their catches....look for them this year to help in our short pass game...as they always do and go unnoticed

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

highlander presents good points. we have yet to bring in a true starter in any of those positions. we keep bringing in old veterans and unproven rookies to fill holes. we didnt address the TE or RB position in the draft because they arent exactly need positions. next year its possible that we go back to drafting offense but i think those positions can be easily upgraded through FA a trades if we need to. as far as RB goes, idk if PT will be our future back but i think he has nice potential after what he showed off last year. id like for us to draft a successor to duece simply because it would give credit to how important the position is. i just dont see it happening with all the depth at RB now. we are upgraded in just about every problem we had last year. i think we will have another '06 season. possibly even better

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

what about vilma and gay...i might even throw morgan and mccray in there as well....vilma will start for us when he is healthy...i believe morgan will start also....i think if MM is healthy we will see a lot of rotation between MM, gay and david.....mccray will be a threat on 3rd and long....we need a good pass rush that has been lacking for awhile now....i agree with the TE and RB situations tho...we have depth at RB and our TEs have never been a big problem....they arent elite but we dont need them to be

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

The first thing is to understand that it's a problem that didn't happen in isolation. When the secondary fails, it's because the whole defense: personnel, coaching, and scheme fails.

The Saints primary problem in th passing defense was at the point of attack: the opposing QB. The Saints significantly improved their front 7 adding Vilma, Ellis, Pressley, McCray, and possibly Morgan to the rotation. That coupled with a healthy Grant should make a significant difference at the point of attack.
Rookie corners do play. Didn't the Giants have one win the Superbowl just a few months ago? He, and the rest of the Giants' pedestrian secondary, was effective because Spagnolo's defense, from the Jim Johnson school, deals with the passing game from the point of attack.

In addition the Saints have brought in free agents into the secondary at every position for 2 straight years now.
So what you're saying is that you are not satisfied with the FA pickups the Saints have acquired in the secondary. That KK, Gay, and yes David, are not in fact attempts to improve the secondary.
No. I'm caught up in offensive stats to show that the offense functions at a level that is sufficient for championship caliber football. Your running this thread at DefCon 1 because we don't have that 5th productive running back or because we don't have Antonio Gates at TE. The offense has been effective for 2 years. There's no reason to think that it won't be effective again this year.

The 06 offense didn't run the ball consistently. They passed. They passed themselves into the #1 scoring and yardage offense in the NFL.

I keep saying that even if Sean Payton had Adrian Peterson in the backfield, that he wouldn't run the ball consistently. We have two years of evidence of that fact.

So we need to stop talking about running the ball consistently, and talk about running the ball productively. As I have pointed out before, each of the the 4 backs that we have on staff have shown that they can be productive. rushing the football.

What I've found is that the Saints have to run the football even when it's not productive. Both Payton and Brees get frustrated and start slinging the ball all over the place.

The worst example of this behavior was the 2006 championship game. Deuce only got the ball 12 times. Even though it was an 8 man front, you still have to rush the ball.

I'm not arguing with that assessment. What I'm arguing is that the Saints O is dictating the run/pass ratio, not the opposing defense.

Actually, I think what dictates it even more is the Saints porous defense. Generally when you're behind in the game, you tend to sling the ball around.

So probably the best way to improve the balance of the offense is to work on the defense. Guess what? That's exactly what they did in the offseason.
No the offense needed a defense that didn't have the stats that I outlined at the beginning of my original post.

If you go and read that humongous Shockey thread, you'll see an analysis that JKool and I did on the offensive and defensive ranks of NFL champions. My conclusion is that teams that have both units play to a high leel are the ones that are the most successful. The Saints already have an offense as is that is championship caliber. Resources needed to be spent on the defense to get it in the ballpark.

Probably right on Stecker. I disagree strongly on PT23. He's the guy that gives a Sean Payton offense the most flexibility in his two back system. He can run between the tackles, pass protect, and catch the football. I like your assessment that he's Westbrook like.

And the Saints don't run an offense that requires an "every down back". It's an offense that needs backs that can be productive everywhere on the field.

I understand that you're making this argument as if Deuce is going to be completely unavailable. You said he should take another year off. But he's going to be available. And if he can come in and do the job of being the closer, like Marcus Allen became towards the end of his career, then he can serve that bruiser role that you're talking about.

But let the young buck suck up the rest of those carries so that Deuce can be as Drew Brees called him "The Hammer".

As you have stated over and over again. I've been arguing with folks here about the offense since January. I'm pleased that the front office took the same route I would have. I'm still waiting for my consulting check.

SFIAH

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

I agree on Stecker. And I'd like to point out that Westbrook is an every down starting back in this league. So PT23 turning into that guy wouldn't be bad at all.
Do we know at whos option that occured? Players may want the flexibility to go for a bigger contract at the end of the season.

Overrated loudmouth

Choose to sign somewhere else
Under contract (or franchised) with other teams. Like Shockey it would have cost a mint in players and draft picks to obtain these guys.

Umm. Like Randal Gay? Oh yeah, the Saints signed him.
Let's look at some teams that have done what you wanted and see where they are now:

49ers signed Clemens. Didn't we trade up into their slot to pick Ellis?

Denver picked up Bly. I don't remember them making the playoffs. Denver has arguably the best CB tandem in the league. Didn't do them very much good.

OTOH the Giants drafted a corner. Hmmm. Won the SB.

So you think that maybe there may be more to it than just signing a high priced, overhyped, free agent? Or trading the future away for a guy that cannot make up the entire difference by himself?

Hall? Do you know what Oakland gave up for that guy? Please!

I admit my optimism is based on the health of injured defensive players. I certainly wouldn't want to see 53 and 58 starting in the LB slots again.

But I think it's an overreach to think that RB and TE are going to be the dealbreakers of the season. As long as the O-line does their job, Drew Brees is upright, and the defensive front 7 can finally bring some pain, then the rest of the pieces can be interchangeable with good success.

SFIAH

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

I think someone needs a class in salary cap. To quote the Stones, "Ah, you can't always get a-what you want
No, no baby

You can't always get a-what you want
Tellin' you right now

You can't always get what you want, mmm!
But if you try sometimes you just might find
You just might find, that ya
Get what you need
Oooh, yeah!

I'm tellin' the truth, babe

Ooow-ooh!
Ooow-ooh!
Ooow-ooh!........
(Instrumental & choir to end fade)..."
Insert SB 2008 win here__________...

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

For the love of GOD we did not have 10 picks in the draft. We have Colston, Smith and Evans all coming up for contracts next year. So the cap is an issue too. The way I am reading this we should have reached on all the picks and broke the bank for FA. Look this is a young team and only going to get younger in the next couple of years, so relax.

Impact rookies in the second at the 10th pick yall wanted TE and backup RB? Come on. The saints may have tried to trade down in the second but they may have not gotten the price they wanted for the drop in talent they would have settled for, Yep the players you guys are talking about. There was nothing wrong with the Porter pick. He has a skill set that can not be coached. He is a proven leader with a ton of experience. The saints got the best CB and most talented player on the board with that pick. Maybe the least hyped though. Any faults you may have with him are ones that coaches can correct. No one has said one player that would have been a better value pick at 40. Not Forte or Davis thats for for sure. WRs were the last of the possible 1st rounders available when we picked. I can only imagine what you guys would would be screaming if they went that route. I bet Porter would have been mentioned as a better option. CB is the weakest position going into the 2008 FA season and the saints made great strides to improve it. Gay and Porter were both quality moves. I will wait and see who ends up on the Island alone next year. Loser will be M&M's replacement. In the case of David, I have to see what camp brings. I want to believe the coaches but I just do not see it. I see him in the slot at #3.

As for the safeties lets see what happens when stopping the run is no longer the top priority for S's on this team. 2 good young DTs and Vilma should reduce that need for extra safety help. Besides next years draft will have solid impact safeties throughout round 1 and well into round 2. I can wait till then. Maybe a gift will be cut by another team before the season starts.

TE? I am still do not get all the ranting. Is this all about Shockey still? Billy Miller is solid. Johnson is still well above average as receiving TE. Campbell is coming back this year to add good depth to the unit. I like the progress he was making till he got injured. Or TEs are solid enough to say they are better than 75% of teams in the NFL.

Bush, PT and Stecker will get us bye at RB if Duce can not go. PT and Stecker will keep Bush on the field and out of the backfield more this year. I feel good about this group as the RB by committee group. Besides lets see what happens when the saints open the season. They may add another will be added. As for a replacement for Duce that was not going to found in this years draft. I do not see one in next years either. Face it Duce is almost impossible to replace with one player. None of the backs here would have answered the need without hurting another position of need or quality of player on the board.

Just face the simple facts
The saints did not over reach on one pick this year in the draft.
The saints did not go out and over spend in FA again this year. Solid players they got. Cap busters they did not.

Maybe next year is the year to make the super bowl push in FA. Barber and/or Asomugha in FA? Mortgage the draft for an impact S and WLB? But I am betting no earlier than 2010 for those kinds of moves. This roster is simple not set for that right now.

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

theres no guarentee there will be a salary cap next year

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

Yes there is. Even if the owners opt out of the CBA, the first uncapped year will be 2011.

SFIAH

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

SaintFanIn?ATLHELL:

You absolutely right on the money! Besides, I lived in Atlanta Hell for many years and was there Before the Vick and Dog Show when we kicked their tale, altho MV ran for about 500 yards in that game.
My only caveat is that I worry about PT having to carry a big load over an entire season and we should keep in mind the Bears game was essentially meaningless, since neither team had anything to play for...

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

Wow, that was a lot to read. You guys have been busy!

I think 504 does raise some interesting points, even if he expresses them at "DefCon1" (I liked that).

Here are some related points:

(1) Every team improves in the offseason, so we must improve more than simple improvement. Strictly speaking, I think that is false. Every year people say this after FA and the draft, like we were supposed to do something other teams can't? It is safe to say that the draft has to address areas of weakness from the previous year, loss of vetrans through FA, and the deterioration of current players. The goal is to get a team that is a little better than the competition and one that fits with the coaching goals/strategies, nothing more.

(2) There is a bit to much hatin' on Reggie. Look, if Reggie Bush isn't a quality backup in the NFL, then who is? No, he is not a Duece, but so what?

(3) This stuff about the TE is starting to dizzy me. Teams can run without a TE on the field. Also, with a good short passing game a ton of pressure can be taken off the running game. I mean, hasn't anyone heard of a three WR set? Also, I'm sure everyone has seen teams send in an OL to play TE at the goal line. Simply put: a great TE would be a nice upgrade, but gosh do you have to have a great player at every position to win a SB? No. Remember David was a starter on a SB team, and no one around here wouldn't like an upgrade at his position.

(4) As a thought experiment, try this: imagine we had two star players at every position, would you then be concerned that we don't have three at every position? If the answer is yes, then how can anyone make you feel better about what we have on the field? If the answer is no, then consider the idea that teams in the NFL exhibit a lot of parity - the challenge is to come up with strategies to defeat your opponents, not simply have more "elite" players (not that that hurts). Consider when Payton finally figured out how to neutralize Vick (send the nickle blitz!) - we did that with some pretty bad CBs, but we set the standard for taking Vick's "game changing ability" out of the equation. Not great players - great coaching.

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

It was meachem in a wwl interview. He said that he is working out with MM in memphis and that MM was already working on his backpedal.

I recall Payton talked about his progress, too, in a recent interview. I'll track that down...

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

oh my bad.....

the team doesnt need an upgrade at the TE position but in our offense a TE could be a valuable asset....i like the idea of moving patten to the slot in the 3 wide sets but the idea of a TE is to go over the middle...they need to be able to take a hit and still retain possession....little patten doesnt quite have the size and strenght to get beaten by a linebacker over the middle play after play....plus a lot of the hype at TE comes from the shockey ordeal...i dont think we need a TE but because it was so widely publicized that he could come to us it suddenly became a need position....agreed u dont need a great player at every position but in our offense a TE would be more than valuable....almost essential if we landed a good one

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

If you mortgage anything right now it is defense not on the offensive side of the ball.

I will take a solid #2 WR right now over any TE right now. That is more important right now.

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

actually i believe thats what we drafted meachem for, is it not?....as for the WR position...drew is talented enough to make nebody who can catch a good player....colston might not have been able to prosper as much somewhere else...drew got him the ball and he has blossomed...i think we have a lot of depth at WR and now with meachem coming in healthy we will have an even better core at wideout

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

Depth? what depth? Have you looked at their numbers from the last 2 years?
I am not sold on the supposed depth at WR. I say we need a another top notch WR before anything else on the offensive side of the ball. Mech will need time to develop and if/when he is ready to take over (2 to 3 years) Patten will be retiring. Then what scamble? Lets make it truly solid now.
If not WR then go defense (WLB). Follow that by a mid level RB for a year if needed. Then talk to me about TE. We are over blowing our need for a TE here.

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

with all the hype from everyone(myself included) we have blown the need for TE out of proportion....i agree....a CB or safety or even LB is much more important to help our team out now than a TE of ne magnitude

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

I like that too !

Let's drop down to DefCon5 for a mo.

Like all of you on this site, I love the Saints and only wish the best for the team, as well as the city.

I grew up playing rugby and the 'other' football !! You know, the one where you use your foot ! And as a result, my opinions are based much more on impressions and not stats.

SFIAH and others are quite knowledgeable about the game to a degree that probably I never will be.

I became rather Saints-obsessed in 06 and 07, and had saved many of the games from both seasons on DVR.

I noticed that the 06 Saints O, had an amazing balance and were difficult to defend. With Deuce, Reggie, Carney, Colston all on the field together, defenses were unable to take anything away.

Think 07 Pats. The 06 Saints O were more like the Pats. Not exactly the same, but heading in that direction.

The 07 Saints O were much easier to defend and they were shut down several times.

This 06 balance is what I would like to recapture. The missing ingredient is Deuce.

This accounts for my RB concerns. Deuce is still hurt and is very fragile and IMO really should sit out 08 to get healthy.

Take a look at 06 Saints/Eagles. Deuce takes 8 minutes off the clock and Saints win at home.
Take a look at 07 Saints/Eagles. 1st and goal, we can't punch it in and we turn over on downs. We lost the game.


My TE concerns go way back to the great Hoby Brenner, remember him?
Hoby was a bruising, blocking TE who, every now and then, went out for a pass. But if I remember correctly, was great on short yardage and goal-line situations.

I don't believe any of the TE's we have currently, have such skills.

I do like Miller and feel that he deserves a spot on the roster. But I hoped that the Saints would look at a couple of 6'7" beasts for TE's. UDFA's maybe.


Here is how I see the secondary. This tier of the D needs professional help!
Better coaching would be a good start. Also, the rookies need veteran guidance.

This staff has done a great job of some things and a lousy job of others.
However, they have made big mistakes in the process of trying to get better, wasting money and failing to effectively upgrade.

But the problems are so bad, that urgent starting help is needed, if the team is to win now.

There are so many DB's on the roster, but no real starters, except for MM, who may not be available.

I was praying that they would bring in Sammy Knight to help mentor Harper and Bullocks. The Giants signed Knight.

I was hoping we might get Sheppard or even Hall, who could both start right now.

Oh well, it's just a game - right ??

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

See, I just don't agree with that. Otherwise, I am pretty much interested in what is being said.

I do remember Hoby. However, I don't remember him really ever catching more than 30-40 passes a year. Not exactly a "threat." If we just need a big old grinder at TE, then why not put Strief or Stinch out there on the end?

The TE is not the key to our running game, it is Karney and he's fine.

Also, I'm on board with an upgrade at TE, but I just don't see it as a glaring need.

Also, as just a quick point, we did bring in some DBs, and I can't help but agree that an improved front seven will improve the secondary.

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

Hoby Brenner was a lunch pail type of guy. Love them types

Thats what Billy Miller does for us. I do not see why he is getting knocked so bad on his blocking. Last year everyone was surprised he could catch the ball too. Maybe I am bias a bit towards him. I liked him back when he was with Houston. In 2002 he had 51 catches for 613 and 3 scores. In 2003 he had 40 catches for 355 and 3 tds. The texans went out and picked up a bunch of TEs in 2004 and 2005 to replace Miller. Miller has an off year and gets released after dealing with a hamstring problem. Not till Owens Daniels did they have a TE to match those numbers. Even then it was 2007 when Billy's numbers were eclipsed by Owen.

Ending up in the pit of Cleveland for the 2005 season, he appearers in only 3 games before getting cut. He was brought in as a blocking TE. Lingering hamstring problems are rumored to be the underlined issue. So he sits and rehabs and the saints pick him up.

There, I thought some history on him might help shed some light on the Guy. The Saints are just starting to learn how he can fit into this offense. 27 catches for 328 and 2 scores is just scratching the surface of what he can do for us in this system. He is the last guy on the defensive hit list. He should be open all day long. As far as his blocking goes he is consistent. What more do want? Above average hands and above average blocking. Runs like a Clydesdale. he is a TE for crying out loud. LOL

For the money he is getting and the play he provides he is a bargain by any measurement you want. Ok he is not glamorous or a high light reel ready to happen but he is a solid TE that is very under rated by the fans and the media. He is an old school lunch pail type of player like Brenner. They never get the press. But those are the guys that win you games and championships.

As for Johnson I wish he could block as well. The poor guy has to live up to this history of an game changing TE. Well I am still waiting too. He has good enough hands to stick and be considered an impact TE but I think the game changing days are behind him. Maybe he has a few left. who knows.

That leaves Mark Campbell at the ripe age 32 is a solid vet but alas he is heading to the lower forty real soon. A couple more years maybe. He is your big guy.

Lets face some facts here this position is getting long in the tooth and youth is needed. They will be a solid rotation for another 2 to 3 years then I say we are in a place of desperate need. I have been hoping for a pet project or two for the past 2 years in the later rounds and each year that round has gotten higher. Next year a 3 or 5 is were on the priority list I think this position will fall. 1 and 2 will be defensive again.

So I agree a move is needed but there is not a big rush needed. Just not yet. Do not pull out a second mortgage on the team for this position. Just not yet. That would be stupid. We are not there as a team yet. That is a luxury move we can ill afford right now.

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

Karney isnt necessarily the key to our running game but i've said that several times that he is one of the most underrated players in the NFL......as far as the DBs go.....we brought in Randal Gay who started for the patriots every game....not at #1 but at #2 corner inluding 3 starts at number 1 and one time in the post season.....thats good enough for me...he was on one of the best defenses over that past 4 years....i am impressed with the pickup even tho even he could be upgraded he can come in and start right away bringing not only veteran leadership but also experience and more importantly, talent

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

for some reason i think its just a luxury to bring in new upgrades....we have a good base team....i think all thats left is to build up....put in the new waterfall so to speak....we can always add a player here and there to make our team better..thats what the offseason is for...now that we have secured up most of our need spots all thats left to do now is...(maybe look for another LB) and sit back and watch the season to start and fly by like it always seems to

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

In addition to the Meachem observation, here is SI's Jim Trotter:

Posted: Wednesday May 14, 2008 1:09PM; Updated: Wednesday May 14, 2008 2:54PM
Jim Trotter > INSIDE THE NFL...

It would be tough to say anyone played well in passing situations considering opponents burned the Saints for 54 plays of 20 or more yards, a league high. New Orleans also surrendered 15 pass plays of 40 yards or longer, tying Baltimore for the league high.

A key could be whether McKenzie returns to form after tearing an ACL in December. Loomis says the medical reports have been good and McKenzie is expected to be full-go by training camp