Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

oh boy u'll get a lot of heat for this post but i'll go easy....i dont like the porter pick probly just as much as u but...we needed a CB in the draft...if we went away from the draft without one we wouldnt have been praised nearly as much.....TE wasnt a need position...i think a lot of the hype from us "needing" a TE was from the shockey trade....i dont think we "needed" one...i just think it could be upgraded.....jason witten and heath miller are good TEs used properly in their systems....our TEs arent as talented as either of them but that doesnt stop us from using them....they will get their catches....look for them this year to help in our short pass game...as they always do and go unnoticed

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

highlander presents good points. we have yet to bring in a true starter in any of those positions. we keep bringing in old veterans and unproven rookies to fill holes. we didnt address the TE or RB position in the draft because they arent exactly need positions. next year its possible that we go back to drafting offense but i think those positions can be easily upgraded through FA a trades if we need to. as far as RB goes, idk if PT will be our future back but i think he has nice potential after what he showed off last year. id like for us to draft a successor to duece simply because it would give credit to how important the position is. i just dont see it happening with all the depth at RB now. we are upgraded in just about every problem we had last year. i think we will have another '06 season. possibly even better

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

what about vilma and gay...i might even throw morgan and mccray in there as well....vilma will start for us when he is healthy...i believe morgan will start also....i think if MM is healthy we will see a lot of rotation between MM, gay and david.....mccray will be a threat on 3rd and long....we need a good pass rush that has been lacking for awhile now....i agree with the TE and RB situations tho...we have depth at RB and our TEs have never been a big problem....they arent elite but we dont need them to be

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

The first thing is to understand that it's a problem that didn't happen in isolation. When the secondary fails, it's because the whole defense: personnel, coaching, and scheme fails.

The Saints primary problem in th passing defense was at the point of attack: the opposing QB. The Saints significantly improved their front 7 adding Vilma, Ellis, Pressley, McCray, and possibly Morgan to the rotation. That coupled with a healthy Grant should make a significant difference at the point of attack.
Rookie corners do play. Didn't the Giants have one win the Superbowl just a few months ago? He, and the rest of the Giants' pedestrian secondary, was effective because Spagnolo's defense, from the Jim Johnson school, deals with the passing game from the point of attack.

In addition the Saints have brought in free agents into the secondary at every position for 2 straight years now.
So what you're saying is that you are not satisfied with the FA pickups the Saints have acquired in the secondary. That KK, Gay, and yes David, are not in fact attempts to improve the secondary.
No. I'm caught up in offensive stats to show that the offense functions at a level that is sufficient for championship caliber football. Your running this thread at DefCon 1 because we don't have that 5th productive running back or because we don't have Antonio Gates at TE. The offense has been effective for 2 years. There's no reason to think that it won't be effective again this year.

The 06 offense didn't run the ball consistently. They passed. They passed themselves into the #1 scoring and yardage offense in the NFL.

I keep saying that even if Sean Payton had Adrian Peterson in the backfield, that he wouldn't run the ball consistently. We have two years of evidence of that fact.

So we need to stop talking about running the ball consistently, and talk about running the ball productively. As I have pointed out before, each of the the 4 backs that we have on staff have shown that they can be productive. rushing the football.

What I've found is that the Saints have to run the football even when it's not productive. Both Payton and Brees get frustrated and start slinging the ball all over the place.

The worst example of this behavior was the 2006 championship game. Deuce only got the ball 12 times. Even though it was an 8 man front, you still have to rush the ball.

I'm not arguing with that assessment. What I'm arguing is that the Saints O is dictating the run/pass ratio, not the opposing defense.

Actually, I think what dictates it even more is the Saints porous defense. Generally when you're behind in the game, you tend to sling the ball around.

So probably the best way to improve the balance of the offense is to work on the defense. Guess what? That's exactly what they did in the offseason.
No the offense needed a defense that didn't have the stats that I outlined at the beginning of my original post.

If you go and read that humongous Shockey thread, you'll see an analysis that JKool and I did on the offensive and defensive ranks of NFL champions. My conclusion is that teams that have both units play to a high leel are the ones that are the most successful. The Saints already have an offense as is that is championship caliber. Resources needed to be spent on the defense to get it in the ballpark.

Probably right on Stecker. I disagree strongly on PT23. He's the guy that gives a Sean Payton offense the most flexibility in his two back system. He can run between the tackles, pass protect, and catch the football. I like your assessment that he's Westbrook like.

And the Saints don't run an offense that requires an "every down back". It's an offense that needs backs that can be productive everywhere on the field.

I understand that you're making this argument as if Deuce is going to be completely unavailable. You said he should take another year off. But he's going to be available. And if he can come in and do the job of being the closer, like Marcus Allen became towards the end of his career, then he can serve that bruiser role that you're talking about.

But let the young buck suck up the rest of those carries so that Deuce can be as Drew Brees called him "The Hammer".

As you have stated over and over again. I've been arguing with folks here about the offense since January. I'm pleased that the front office took the same route I would have. I'm still waiting for my consulting check.

SFIAH

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

I agree on Stecker. And I'd like to point out that Westbrook is an every down starting back in this league. So PT23 turning into that guy wouldn't be bad at all.
Do we know at whos option that occured? Players may want the flexibility to go for a bigger contract at the end of the season.

Overrated loudmouth

Choose to sign somewhere else
Under contract (or franchised) with other teams. Like Shockey it would have cost a mint in players and draft picks to obtain these guys.

Umm. Like Randal Gay? Oh yeah, the Saints signed him.
Let's look at some teams that have done what you wanted and see where they are now:

49ers signed Clemens. Didn't we trade up into their slot to pick Ellis?

Denver picked up Bly. I don't remember them making the playoffs. Denver has arguably the best CB tandem in the league. Didn't do them very much good.

OTOH the Giants drafted a corner. Hmmm. Won the SB.

So you think that maybe there may be more to it than just signing a high priced, overhyped, free agent? Or trading the future away for a guy that cannot make up the entire difference by himself?

Hall? Do you know what Oakland gave up for that guy? Please!

I admit my optimism is based on the health of injured defensive players. I certainly wouldn't want to see 53 and 58 starting in the LB slots again.

But I think it's an overreach to think that RB and TE are going to be the dealbreakers of the season. As long as the O-line does their job, Drew Brees is upright, and the defensive front 7 can finally bring some pain, then the rest of the pieces can be interchangeable with good success.

SFIAH

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

I think someone needs a class in salary cap. To quote the Stones, "Ah, you can't always get a-what you want
No, no baby

You can't always get a-what you want
Tellin' you right now

You can't always get what you want, mmm!
But if you try sometimes you just might find
You just might find, that ya
Get what you need
Oooh, yeah!

I'm tellin' the truth, babe

Ooow-ooh!
Ooow-ooh!
Ooow-ooh!........
(Instrumental & choir to end fade)..."
Insert SB 2008 win here__________...

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

For the love of GOD we did not have 10 picks in the draft. We have Colston, Smith and Evans all coming up for contracts next year. So the cap is an issue too. The way I am reading this we should have reached on all the picks and broke the bank for FA. Look this is a young team and only going to get younger in the next couple of years, so relax.

Impact rookies in the second at the 10th pick yall wanted TE and backup RB? Come on. The saints may have tried to trade down in the second but they may have not gotten the price they wanted for the drop in talent they would have settled for, Yep the players you guys are talking about. There was nothing wrong with the Porter pick. He has a skill set that can not be coached. He is a proven leader with a ton of experience. The saints got the best CB and most talented player on the board with that pick. Maybe the least hyped though. Any faults you may have with him are ones that coaches can correct. No one has said one player that would have been a better value pick at 40. Not Forte or Davis thats for for sure. WRs were the last of the possible 1st rounders available when we picked. I can only imagine what you guys would would be screaming if they went that route. I bet Porter would have been mentioned as a better option. CB is the weakest position going into the 2008 FA season and the saints made great strides to improve it. Gay and Porter were both quality moves. I will wait and see who ends up on the Island alone next year. Loser will be M&M's replacement. In the case of David, I have to see what camp brings. I want to believe the coaches but I just do not see it. I see him in the slot at #3.

As for the safeties lets see what happens when stopping the run is no longer the top priority for S's on this team. 2 good young DTs and Vilma should reduce that need for extra safety help. Besides next years draft will have solid impact safeties throughout round 1 and well into round 2. I can wait till then. Maybe a gift will be cut by another team before the season starts.

TE? I am still do not get all the ranting. Is this all about Shockey still? Billy Miller is solid. Johnson is still well above average as receiving TE. Campbell is coming back this year to add good depth to the unit. I like the progress he was making till he got injured. Or TEs are solid enough to say they are better than 75% of teams in the NFL.

Bush, PT and Stecker will get us bye at RB if Duce can not go. PT and Stecker will keep Bush on the field and out of the backfield more this year. I feel good about this group as the RB by committee group. Besides lets see what happens when the saints open the season. They may add another will be added. As for a replacement for Duce that was not going to found in this years draft. I do not see one in next years either. Face it Duce is almost impossible to replace with one player. None of the backs here would have answered the need without hurting another position of need or quality of player on the board.

Just face the simple facts
The saints did not over reach on one pick this year in the draft.
The saints did not go out and over spend in FA again this year. Solid players they got. Cap busters they did not.

Maybe next year is the year to make the super bowl push in FA. Barber and/or Asomugha in FA? Mortgage the draft for an impact S and WLB? But I am betting no earlier than 2010 for those kinds of moves. This roster is simple not set for that right now.

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

theres no guarentee there will be a salary cap next year

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

Yes there is. Even if the owners opt out of the CBA, the first uncapped year will be 2011.

SFIAH

Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints
 

SaintFanIn?ATLHELL:

You absolutely right on the money! Besides, I lived in Atlanta Hell for many years and was there Before the Vick and Dog Show when we kicked their tale, altho MV ran for about 500 yards in that game.
My only caveat is that I worry about PT having to carry a big load over an entire season and we should keep in mind the Bears game was essentially meaningless, since neither team had anything to play for...