Saints' Staff are Gamblers

JKool · 05-21-2008, 10:52 AM

A fine point Sapper, and one worth remembering.

JKool · 05-21-2008, 11:00 AM

bobad, a fine point.

I guess, I was thinking of gambling in simple terms. I take it something like expected utility is a measure of this - probability of outcome times benefit (or cost) of outcome.

But you're, right that it is more complicated in these cases. Maybe there is some sort of additional cost to the thwarted expectations - e.g. we expect Vilma to be our stud MLB, and if he isn't there is a high cost (because, say, we have to see Simoneau there again).

I'm not sure where I was going with this, but it struck me as interesting.

BooBirdSaint. Well put.

CantonLegend · 05-21-2008, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by 504Highlander

Parcells and Belichik could still teach the Saints Staff a thing or two. Like picking big, strong, healthy, players who can compete from Day One.

Football is war. You need soldiers to fight a war. The wounded are removed from the battlefield.

honestly i dont think that belichek is a good coach....its hard to argue that with his 3 superbowl rings....and maybe im biasd cuz he coached the browns for awhile and didnt help them do ne thing...who knows....i really think he inherited a team with good chess pieces and just helped them move into position to win....nobody expected Tom Brady to be the elite QB he is...that was a fluke....however....parcells is one of the all time greats...he has the ability to, in 2 or 3 years, turn a football team completely around....most of his teams have great players too...but he doesnt turn them from super bowl contenders to super bowl contenders...he turns them from bottom feeders to super bowl contenders....i think if ne thing....Payton could learn from parcells....and oh i forgot...he already did lol....

as far as the soldiers thing goes....i agree with sapper on this...but also even tho the direct quote says football is war....i dont think he meant it as a direct comparison so much as he meant it as an analogy....like saying football is an ocean....or football is a book etc.

JKool · 05-21-2008, 01:00 PM

Football is an ocean?

CantonLegend · 05-21-2008, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by JKool

Football is an ocean?

lol that wasnt my point...it was just something to fill in the gap....u know what i meant

Memnoch_TP · 05-21-2008, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by SapperSaint

1. I don't compare a game to war.

2. I don't compare athletes to Soldiers.

3. There is no comparison to an injured player, and an injured Soldier. So until you have the honor and heartache of dragging your friends "Off the Battlefield", please don't throw those words around like they mean nothing.

4. You can gamble in a game and only lose pride.
If you gamble in war, your lose lives.

Signed,
SapperSaint
OIF 3 Veteran

Sorry guys, just hate when a game and people who play a game are compared to Soldiers and war. Still dislike Kellen Winslow for comparing himself to a Soldier.

Oh please, this is a football forum. The last thing we need is someone coming in and trying to lay down a guilt trip on everyone for using an analogy you don't care for.

papz · 05-21-2008, 06:53 PM

He cares for it that's why he made that comment. That's just the way he feels about the subject and there's nothing wrong with that. You make a valid point also... but as we can see, this subject could get a bit touchy. So let's just respect each one another and try to avoid it.

504Highlander · 05-21-2008, 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by SapperSaint

1. I don't compare a game to war.

2. I don't compare athletes to Soldiers.

3. There is no comparison to an injured player, and an injured Soldier. So until you have the honor and heartache of dragging your friends "Off the Battlefield", please don't throw those words around like they mean nothing.

4. You can gamble in a game and only lose pride.
If you gamble in war, your lose lives.

Signed,
SapperSaint
OIF 3 Veteran

Sorry guys, just hate when a game and people who play a game are compared to Soldiers and war. Still dislike Kellen Winslow for comparing himself to a Soldier.

Definitions:
Metaphors are comparisons that show how two things that are not alike in most ways are similar in one important way.

These forums are supposed to be all about opinions and I have one, just like the rest of the folks posting here.

Why not simply agree or disagree with the thread? Give us your two cents worth!

This isn't the Dr Phil Show or Oprah, is it??

I hope I am not in the wrong place.

papz · 05-21-2008, 09:47 PM

Okay both got to say their piece... now let's get back on topic. If not, don't post.

504Highlander · 05-21-2008, 09:51 PM

Originally Posted by JKool

To get a deal on good players, you have to gamble a bit.

These players also deserve a chance to shake off their injuries and return to duty.

A draft pick is as much or more of a gamble than an injured vetran. At least you know what they can do at this level, and, furthermore, it isn't like the team didn't have the doctors check out Vilma, et. al. The risk can be minimized.

504, I am enjoying your writing - it is certainly entertaining. However, I must point out that sometimes it seems that as long as the probability we'll win the SB isn't 100% there is something horribly wrong. Also, I note your obsession with the draft and draft picks. Many draft picks never make an NFL squad in any capacity at all, and few are "make an impact right now" kind of players.

I would like to restate the point I made during one of these earlier "sky is falling" style threads: coaching is a critical element to victory - teams that don't have stars at every position win games each week, even against teams that have more "stars". Why is that? Well, a lot of things go into it, but one of them is coaching what you have - game planning for the players you have available. Success can be had with the second string players.

No team has a great player for each and every position. Some teams appear to have more stars, because they are well coached and have the critcal elements in place. On other teams many of the "apparent stars" would be just average.

It's going to be ok. We've upgraded the DL - the most important thing we needed. There will be plenty of competition for the CB spots; this is good. We've got good depth at OL. We've got solid vetran backups at QB, RB, CB, DT, and DE.

Sure, it would be nice to have upgrades at TE, S, and WLB (now), but are you sure the sky is falling?

I appreciate your well thought out comments. You and SFIAH have a 'calming' effect on me !

I suppose the 'sky is falling' just over me !!

I am probably too impatient for big success. I want it and I want it NOW !!!

After scoping out the moves made by some key NFC rivals, Eagles, Panthers and Bears, I am a little more concerned about how the Saints are going to match up.

I will attempt to mellow it out a bit from here on out.

05-21-2008, 10:52 AM	#11
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Re: Saints' Staff are Gamblers A fine point Sapper, and one worth remembering.

05-21-2008, 11:00 AM	#12
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Re: Saints' Staff are Gamblers bobad, a fine point. I guess, I was thinking of gambling in simple terms. I take it something like expected utility is a measure of this - probability of outcome times benefit (or cost) of outcome. But you're, right that it is more complicated in these cases. Maybe there is some sort of additional cost to the thwarted expectations - e.g. we expect Vilma to be our stud MLB, and if he isn't there is a high cost (because, say, we have to see Simoneau there again). I'm not sure where I was going with this, but it struck me as interesting. BooBirdSaint. Well put.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

05-21-2008, 11:21 AM	#13
CantonLegend 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 2,685 Blog Entries: 2	Re: Saints' Staff are Gamblers Originally Posted by 504Highlander Parcells and Belichik could still teach the Saints Staff a thing or two. Like picking big, strong, healthy, players who can compete from Day One. Football is war. You need soldiers to fight a war. The wounded are removed from the battlefield. honestly i dont think that belichek is a good coach....its hard to argue that with his 3 superbowl rings....and maybe im biasd cuz he coached the browns for awhile and didnt help them do ne thing...who knows....i really think he inherited a team with good chess pieces and just helped them move into position to win....nobody expected Tom Brady to be the elite QB he is...that was a fluke....however....parcells is one of the all time greats...he has the ability to, in 2 or 3 years, turn a football team completely around....most of his teams have great players too...but he doesnt turn them from super bowl contenders to super bowl contenders...he turns them from bottom feeders to super bowl contenders....i think if ne thing....Payton could learn from parcells....and oh i forgot...he already did lol.... as far as the soldiers thing goes....i agree with sapper on this...but also even tho the direct quote says football is war....i dont think he meant it as a direct comparison so much as he meant it as an analogy....like saying football is an ocean....or football is a book etc.
	"deal with it or you can go play the saints and get trounced by 30 and you won't have to worry about it."-colin cowherd

05-21-2008, 01:00 PM	#14
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Re: Saints' Staff are Gamblers Football is an ocean?

05-21-2008, 01:30 PM	#15
CantonLegend 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 2,685 Blog Entries: 2	Re: Saints' Staff are Gamblers Originally Posted by JKool Football is an ocean? lol that wasnt my point...it was just something to fill in the gap....u know what i meant

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05-21-2008, 06:25 PM	#16
Memnoch_TP Logic Troll Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Southern Louisiana Posts: 565	Re: Saints' Staff are Gamblers Originally Posted by SapperSaint 1. I don't compare a game to war. 2. I don't compare athletes to Soldiers. 3. There is no comparison to an injured player, and an injured Soldier. So until you have the honor and heartache of dragging your friends "Off the Battlefield", please don't throw those words around like they mean nothing. 4. You can gamble in a game and only lose pride. If you gamble in war, your lose lives. Signed, SapperSaint OIF 3 Veteran Sorry guys, just hate when a game and people who play a game are compared to Soldiers and war. Still dislike Kellen Winslow for comparing himself to a Soldier. Oh please, this is a football forum. The last thing we need is someone coming in and trying to lay down a guilt trip on everyone for using an analogy you don't care for.

05-21-2008, 06:53 PM	#17
papz Problem? Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New Orleans Posts: 11,753	Re: Saints' Staff are Gamblers He cares for it that's why he made that comment. That's just the way he feels about the subject and there's nothing wrong with that. You make a valid point also... but as we can see, this subject could get a bit touchy. So let's just respect each one another and try to avoid it.

05-21-2008, 09:27 PM	#18
504Highlander Registered Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 47 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Saints' Staff are Gamblers Originally Posted by SapperSaint 1. I don't compare a game to war. 2. I don't compare athletes to Soldiers. 3. There is no comparison to an injured player, and an injured Soldier. So until you have the honor and heartache of dragging your friends "Off the Battlefield", please don't throw those words around like they mean nothing. 4. You can gamble in a game and only lose pride. If you gamble in war, your lose lives. Signed, SapperSaint OIF 3 Veteran Sorry guys, just hate when a game and people who play a game are compared to Soldiers and war. Still dislike Kellen Winslow for comparing himself to a Soldier. Definitions: Metaphors are comparisons that show how two things that are not alike in most ways are similar in one important way. These forums are supposed to be all about opinions and I have one, just like the rest of the folks posting here. Why not simply agree or disagree with the thread? Give us your two cents worth! This isn't the Dr Phil Show or Oprah, is it?? I hope I am not in the wrong place.

05-21-2008, 09:47 PM	#19
papz Problem? Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New Orleans Posts: 11,753	Re: Saints' Staff are Gamblers Okay both got to say their piece... now let's get back on topic. If not, don't post.

05-21-2008, 09:51 PM	#20
504Highlander Registered Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 47 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Saints' Staff are Gamblers Originally Posted by JKool To get a deal on good players, you have to gamble a bit. These players also deserve a chance to shake off their injuries and return to duty. A draft pick is as much or more of a gamble than an injured vetran. At least you know what they can do at this level, and, furthermore, it isn't like the team didn't have the doctors check out Vilma, et. al. The risk can be minimized. 504, I am enjoying your writing - it is certainly entertaining. However, I must point out that sometimes it seems that as long as the probability we'll win the SB isn't 100% there is something horribly wrong. Also, I note your obsession with the draft and draft picks. Many draft picks never make an NFL squad in any capacity at all, and few are "make an impact right now" kind of players. I would like to restate the point I made during one of these earlier "sky is falling" style threads: coaching is a critical element to victory - teams that don't have stars at every position win games each week, even against teams that have more "stars". Why is that? Well, a lot of things go into it, but one of them is coaching what you have - game planning for the players you have available. Success can be had with the second string players. No team has a great player for each and every position. Some teams appear to have more stars, because they are well coached and have the critcal elements in place. On other teams many of the "apparent stars" would be just average. It's going to be ok. We've upgraded the DL - the most important thing we needed. There will be plenty of competition for the CB spots; this is good. We've got good depth at OL. We've got solid vetran backups at QB, RB, CB, DT, and DE. Sure, it would be nice to have upgrades at TE, S, and WLB (now), but are you sure the sky is falling? I appreciate your well thought out comments. You and SFIAH have a 'calming' effect on me ! I suppose the 'sky is falling' just over me !! I am probably too impatient for big success. I want it and I want it NOW !!! After scoping out the moves made by some key NFC rivals, Eagles, Panthers and Bears, I am a little more concerned about how the Saints are going to match up. I will attempt to mellow it out a bit from here on out.