Saints' Staff are Gamblers
 

The Saints' staff must stop bringing in injured players and still expect to put a superior product on the field.

They rolled the dice with Brees and it worked. Don't push your luck when you get ahead.
He defied the odds. Most do not.

Parcells and Belichik could still teach the Saints Staff a thing or two. Like picking big, strong, healthy, players who can compete from Day One.

Football is war. You need soldiers to fight a war. The wounded are removed from the battlefield.

After going 0 for 4 in 2007, I hate the idea of starting the 2008 season with so many injury question marks at key positions.

Your thoughts ??

Re: Saints' Staff are Gamblers
 

Our defense is already taking hits and training camp hasn't even started yet.

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Re: Saints' Staff are Gamblers
 

Exactly !!!

Injuries happen to all teams. But why start the season at a disadvantage, when it is avoidable.
When injuries occur during the season, you just deal with it.

The worst hit is giving away draft picks for injured players. Now that's gambling.

Saints didn't have very many picks in this year's draft.

Re: Saints' Staff are Gamblers
 

To get a deal on good players, you have to gamble a bit.

These players also deserve a chance to shake off their injuries and return to duty.

A draft pick is as much or more of a gamble than an injured vetran. At least you know what they can do at this level, and, furthermore, it isn't like the team didn't have the doctors check out Vilma, et. al. The risk can be minimized.

504, I am enjoying your writing - it is certainly entertaining. However, I must point out that sometimes it seems that as long as the probability we'll win the SB isn't 100% there is something horribly wrong. Also, I note your obsession with the draft and draft picks. Many draft picks never make an NFL squad in any capacity at all, and few are "make an impact right now" kind of players.

I would like to restate the point I made during one of these earlier "sky is falling" style threads: coaching is a critical element to victory - teams that don't have stars at every position win games each week, even against teams that have more "stars". Why is that? Well, a lot of things go into it, but one of them is coaching what you have - game planning for the players you have available. Success can be had with the second string players.

No team has a great player for each and every position. Some teams appear to have more stars, because they are well coached and have the critcal elements in place. On other teams many of the "apparent stars" would be just average.

It's going to be ok. We've upgraded the DL - the most important thing we needed. There will be plenty of competition for the CB spots; this is good. We've got good depth at OL. We've got solid vetran backups at QB, RB, CB, DT, and DE.

Sure, it would be nice to have upgrades at TE, S, and WLB (now), but are you sure the sky is falling?

Re: Saints' Staff are Gamblers
 

Thats right JKOOL. You gotta take risks on vets. Drew worked out ok, right? So 1 out 3 do not pan out, oh well. There is always next year to add a few more. You have to have faith that the medical staff can increase your odds finding good players from other teams scrap heaps.
We have been doing this for 3 years now and I think we have done well enough to continue. Rebuilding anything never requires all brand new and high priced parts. You never turn a profit that way.
Sign'em, work'em then decide to dump'em or keep'em.

Re: Saints' Staff are Gamblers
 

So you're saying you are and were against us acquiring Vilma from the Jets?

:rolleyes:

That's the only move that we made this offseason that required giving up draft picks for a previously injured star linebacker. Dan Morgan was a low risk high reward player that costed us absolutely nothing.

Re: Saints' Staff are Gamblers
 

The words "risk" and "gambling" are being thrown about. In most cases, there is no risk. We're not giving injured players large salaries or guaranteed money, and we're certainly not counting on them. If we were putting all our hopes on an injured player, I would be worried too.

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Is this a fantansy league question? Its only in the fantasy leagues that you can create the "all star" roster. Here in the real world teams only have so much money to pay for talent. Why don't you try adding up the real world salaries of your fantasy league team and compare it to the Saints salaries. No team can afford to pay to add Asante Samuals, Randy Moss & Lance Briggs plus renegoate Colston & Will Smith, sign rookie Ellis and continue to pay Breas, Bush and the other role players that play important roles on this team. It about math...

Re: Saints' Staff are Gamblers
 

1. I don't compare a game to war.

2. I don't compare athletes to Soldiers.

3. There is no comparison to an injured player, and an injured Soldier. So until you have the honor and heartache of dragging your friends "Off the Battlefield", please don't throw those words around like they mean nothing.

4. You can gamble in a game and only lose pride.
If you gamble in war, your lose lives.

Signed,
SapperSaint
OIF 3 Veteran

Sorry guys, just hate when a game and people who play a game are compared to Soldiers and war. Still dislike Kellen Winslow for comparing himself to a Soldier.

Re: Saints' Staff are Gamblers
 

A fine point Sapper, and one worth remembering.

Re: Saints' Staff are Gamblers
 

bobad, a fine point.

I guess, I was thinking of gambling in simple terms. I take it something like expected utility is a measure of this - probability of outcome times benefit (or cost) of outcome.

But you're, right that it is more complicated in these cases. Maybe there is some sort of additional cost to the thwarted expectations - e.g. we expect Vilma to be our stud MLB, and if he isn't there is a high cost (because, say, we have to see Simoneau there again).

I'm not sure where I was going with this, but it struck me as interesting.

BooBirdSaint. Well put.

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honestly i dont think that belichek is a good coach....its hard to argue that with his 3 superbowl rings....and maybe im biasd cuz he coached the browns for awhile and didnt help them do ne thing...who knows....i really think he inherited a team with good chess pieces and just helped them move into position to win....nobody expected Tom Brady to be the elite QB he is...that was a fluke....however....parcells is one of the all time greats...he has the ability to, in 2 or 3 years, turn a football team completely around....most of his teams have great players too...but he doesnt turn them from super bowl contenders to super bowl contenders...he turns them from bottom feeders to super bowl contenders....i think if ne thing....Payton could learn from parcells....and oh i forgot...he already did lol....

as far as the soldiers thing goes....i agree with sapper on this...but also even tho the direct quote says football is war....i dont think he meant it as a direct comparison so much as he meant it as an analogy....like saying football is an ocean....or football is a book etc.

Re: Saints' Staff are Gamblers
 

Football is an ocean?

;)

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lol that wasnt my point...it was just something to fill in the gap....u know what i meant

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Oh please, this is a football forum. The last thing we need is someone coming in and trying to lay down a guilt trip on everyone for using an analogy you don't care for.

Re: Saints' Staff are Gamblers
 

He cares for it that's why he made that comment. That's just the way he feels about the subject and there's nothing wrong with that. You make a valid point also... but as we can see, this subject could get a bit touchy. So let's just respect each one another and try to avoid it.

Re: Saints' Staff are Gamblers
 

Definitions:
Metaphors are comparisons that show how two things that are not alike in most ways are similar in one important way.

These forums are supposed to be all about opinions and I have one, just like the rest of the folks posting here.

Why not simply agree or disagree with the thread? Give us your two cents worth!

This isn't the Dr Phil Show or Oprah, is it??

I hope I am not in the wrong place.

Re: Saints' Staff are Gamblers
 

Okay both got to say their piece... now let's get back on topic. If not, don't post.

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I appreciate your well thought out comments. You and SFIAH have a 'calming' effect on me !

I suppose the 'sky is falling' just over me !!

I am probably too impatient for big success. I want it and I want it NOW !!!

After scoping out the moves made by some key NFC rivals, Eagles, Panthers and Bears, I am a little more concerned about how the Saints are going to match up.

I will attempt to mellow it out a bit from here on out.

Re: Saints' Staff are Gamblers
 

Nah 504 your fine. you have an emotional feelings on a topic and you let them out. Thats cool. I think we all can handle it. Feel free to vent here if you need. :moan: You can even cry if you want. :no: please :no:

Coaches for years have talked about the battle on the field as a war. I am sure that in no way would one of them actual be stupid enough to compare the two equally. It is just a way to get players focused. We all know it two worlds apart. In todays society we have to use terminology very carefully. I full understand the difference in intent of the usages. But I also understand that this understanding does not let me ignore another persons feeling on the topic. I was taught by coaches that used it all my life. They were Vets of WWII, Korea and Nam also. They felt at ease with it then but today they may not. Hmm I might have ask next time I run into a few of the ones that are still alive and see how their view on this has changed, if at all. So in many ways I am in the same boat as you here 504. Old school habits die hard. It is hard for me to become this "sensitive new age male" after so many years of being an insensitive SOB. :p It does seem to be quick way to loose a lady though. That could be good thing:confused:

As for the risks I say go for broke and take both Cinnci headaches on, Chris Henry and Odell Thurman. As long as they sign a play for pay contract. They would be cheap and little or no risk. 1 screw up and off you go. Henry without a doubt is one of the top 5 #3WR in the NFL. Odell has the speed and skills to work at WLB in this league. Then again I think of a wasted roster spot as soon as one or both mess up.x(

As for wanting it now I fully understand. I was there at the first camp. 1st game and all the crap. I know WIN IT ALL NOW PLEASE, I am not getting younger here so lets get this show on the road.

Re: Saints' Staff are Gamblers
 

Question is:

Do you prefer not taking a risk such as when Mora was here playing the percentages, teasing us with 10-6 records and never winning a playoff game, but being "respectable" to...

Seeing a chick with a nice rack with a F&#@ Da Eagles shirt, watching a power running back finish off a team in Quarter No. 4, just stuffing the living $#!% of it down the opponents throat and winning a playoff game against a larger market...

Americans take Risks, that's how this country became Great...

cue music Lee Greenwood

Re: Saints' Staff are Gamblers
 

While Finks was here picking the talent and Mora was coaching and Sidwell was running the D, that was THEE most impressive team the Saints have fielded. IMO

It was fun watching Deuce beat the Eagles in the playoff game, but the 06 Saints were not the best Saints team IMO.

If you prefer roller coasters, then so be it.

I am more impressed with teams that go to the playoffs year in, year out.

Eagles, Pats, Colts, Steelers and the like.

Hey, call me a conservative.

And Lee Greenwood, please! - He is a nice guy, but he should leave music to musicians.

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Well, like the ocean waves, we've passed over an interesting point...

504, you raised an interesting point in brining up the off season moves over our division rivals. I haven't paid too close attention to them, but I was underwhelmed by their performances in the draft. Are there key additions that have you especially nervous, or is it just a general malaise?

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[QUOTE=or is it just a general malaise?[/QUOTE]

JK, I will speak for myself.

This time of year invites malaise.

p.s. your AB quote is my all time favorite!

Right up there with "I am a top five quarterback in this league."

Re: Saints' Staff are Gamblers
 

Sidwell was the key under Mora, not so much Jim himself. Remember Mora inherited a ton of talent from Bum Phillips too. Unlike most I do not give Mora that much credit.

yes the playoff game was great but I like the victory against the eagles during that season better. The 8 Minute Drive to win the game was a work of art.

I agree. Conservative takes time. I give this rebuilding thing two more years till we are young enough and deep enough to start thinking along these lines of being a dominate force year in and year out. I still say this going to be a key year to measure how far we have come. I can not wait. Lets see what we got on the bench.

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oh come on...the cowboys game was the most impressive...we downed the ball with what?...3 minutes left?...lol thats insane

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HAHA see JKool.....football is an ocean

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Yes that was a piece of art and we did it to the perfect team. Beatem and kept them beat.
But the philli game was a game that champions must have. drive the ball and eat up the clock. Then put the nail in the coffin as the clock runs out. That is a true test of character. 8 minute drive are you kidding me to win the game. I watch that drive all the time. I still find it unbelievable.

Re: Saints' Staff are Gamblers
 

RockyMountain, agreed it is the time of year for malaise. Wait until they take the field, and people will settle down.

I like that quote too!

Canton, it was just an homage to the poetry of the thread... smile.

Re: Saints' Staff are Gamblers
 

Not really malaise. More like respect.

When you get a mo, take a look at the new additions to, Panthers, Eagles and Bears.

I am thinking 'degree of difficulty' when it is time to go up against these teams.

Panthers twice and Bears once. We will only see the Eagles again if we make it to Post-season.

The Panthers are bigger at OL and now have a serious backfield. Stewart and Williams. They want to emphasize the running game, but they now have, Muhammad, Hackett, Smith and Jarrett at WR, along with new TE Barnidge.

They look much more balanced and therefore harder to defend.

On D they are stacked at LB, solid at the safety position and have added more bodies at DL.

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504 makes good points about our competition this year. We have an easier schedule however(according to last year's records). simply adding one or two key players does not make those teams superbowl contenders tho. that was my argument for bringing in shockey. the eagles added asante samuel whom, IMO, was the only key offseason move for them. with samuel and lito on the corners they will have a dominant pass defense. however, the bears and panthers are up in the air. we normally dont beat the bears and if we lose to them(i penciled us in for a loss there) it wont hurt our chances for a superbowl. the panthers usually split the series with us so im not worried about that either. whether we split the series or not, they will not sweep us simply because our offense is so dominating and their defense will not match up

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Dr, that is a nice take.

Of course, any team might find some diamonds in the rough or happen on a sneaky new blitz package... this is why teams aren't just what they are on paper. Maybe that is the key point to remember?

I think we look better on paper (except at Center, Safety, TE, and Running Back) than we did last year, and in at least one of those cases we didn't really need any improvement. I hope this translates into being better than we were last year. I, for one, am optimistic..

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I hope the injuried players can play.

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So does that make the owners Kraken? Cause that kind of makes sense.

Optimism, the one consistent thing about the Saints' fans. Got to love it.

Hey, I heard them talking on the radio to Sean Payton about co-owning a racehorse and how he enjoys a little wager. If I remember correctly, the other owners were other members of the FO.

I guess the Saints' Staff really are gamblers !

The ponies, the draft, injured players, whatever. Let's make a bet.

The thing is, we just have no idea. That is what I am getting at. If we are upgrading a key position, let's start with a talented and healthy prospect or player, then go from there. If we are going for depth, then we can roll the dice and deal with the outcome. But making plans based on a 'best case' scenario and not even considering the 'worst case' scenario, is a bit dumb.
Like gambling is dumb, if you don't really have very much money.


The Eagles quietly made some smart and interesting moves this year.

They signed Dan Klecko to be their fullback. His previous starting position was D Line, although the Colts also used him as a TE on short yardage situations.

They also signed a guy named Kris Wilson, who was behind Gonzales at TE and HB and who also had lined up in the backfield.

Plus they signed DE Chris Clemons (Raiders), LB Rocky Boiman(Colts), RB Lorenzo Booker (Fins)

In the Draft they got DT Trevor Laws, WR Desean Jackson, FS Quintin Demps,
CB Jack Ikegwuonu

They definitely added more than one player in 08.

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Big Time Gamblers? - Black and Gold Forums

I started a reply and it went on for great lengths so I felt it better posted in the Blog section of the site.

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You make it sound like we're putting all our eggs into one basket. We've only made two big acquistions on injured players in the past, Brees and Vilma. Only Brees was a big investment and risk, not Vilma. He was had for a nickel on a dollar. If he doesn't work out, we didn't lose much. And if he does, what a steal he would be. I'd rather have Vilma than that 4th round pick we gave up any day of the week... as I'm sure most, and probably you, would agree (which makes this thread pointless).

Making big risk investments in highly talented injured players has not been a trend. It's only happened once. I'd also like to point out that if we wanted to gamble, we had and have plenty of cap room to do whatever as we please.

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Saints needed to add speed and more talent at LB. They added Vilma and Morgan, both seriously injured.

Morgan has retired and on WWL radio yesterday, Vilma was discussing not be able to participate fully as he is still rehabbing.

Last year they brought in LB Simmons who was coming off a serious injury and was never really productive. He was cut too.

This year the Saints will likely have to start without McAllister and therefore begin a tough season at a competitive disadvantage.

We are not discussing a player, we are looking at a FO philosophy, that goes thinks 'bargain hunting' is a legit way to improve the team.

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Ocean? I take great offense to football being compared to an ocean.

Have any of you ever been left at sea? You get sunburned, thirsty, tired and eventually eaten by sharks. How does this compare to football?

Sorry, I couldn't resist.