Saints Insiders?
 

I\'m trying to tell you that if I said Aaron Brooks has one blue eye and one green eye you\'d snap because you sleep with his picture your pillow every night.

Bill, I\'m telling you that I feel the same way about Swilling and Payton and I\'m not calling you out for being that way. You could make all of those \"unfair\" comparisons you wanted and I\'d never believe nor accept any truth if you were focusing them towards \"my guys\".

I\'m simply making an observation, as a point to keep in mind in this whole Aaron Brooks debate, is that there isn\'t a wide margin between a critical observation and a bashing comment in your mind when it comes to Aaron Brooks. I know there are individuals that are as anti-Brooks as you are pro-Brooks, but why does that make them retarded....sorry mentally handicapped? I don\'t agree with them either but I don\'t fly off the handle name calling and questioning their intellegence.....why because they\'re not talking about Swilling/Payton. On almost every topic you used to debate you\'d take their evidence and refute it with evidence of your own. You\'ve done that to me many times, but when it comes to this one it\'s like we kicked your dog. The guys that are doing it to you now are likely doing it for the pleasure of what unfolds from the arguements and really may not even feel as strongly about what they are stating, but this is an entertainment just like Joe said. And there\'s a reason why...


Thus, the four words that my three rambling posts meant to express are -you have \"Brooks goggles\".

Saints Insiders?
 

Lumm0x --

I have no issues with a fair assesment of anyone\'s play...and that includes Brooks. I think a history of my posts would show that. I have issues with those who unfairly criticize Brooks, and you\'d have to be wearing filtering goggles not to see that. I won\'t mention names. I\'ll only say that the most \"AB\" critical individuals have been at it for a LONG time, and the more games he starts the more rediculous their posts become.

Research of posts on this board (and others) WILL show that those most critical of Brooks are those who thought Jake Delhomme should start. They were at their peak when Brooks was injured. As I\'ve said before...starting an injured player is a coaching choice but truthfully we all know that. Brooks, if fairly compared, should be commended for his willingness to play as other \"tough\" QB\'s around the leagure are, but instead it was held against him. Go figure. Those same individuals who harp on this statistic or that statistic won\'t have a stistical discussion regarding Jake Delhomme\'s HORRIBLE game against the bucs. It\'s not hard to figure out why.

No supporter of Brooks that I\'ve seen in here has given any indication that he was the second coming of Christ! We believe that he\'s a solid starter and that he shouldn\'t be benched due to any pea patch politics or home town cookin\'. Be fair...that\'s all, well, along with being honest. If Brooks isn\'t the \"right QB for our system\" then how is it this offense averaged damn near 30 points a game last year? Would the \"right\" QB have averaged 60? Surely you, and anyone else willing to be honest and fair, can see the flaw in that logic. People complain about the money the Saints pay Brooks cause he doesn\'t rank as a \"top 5\" QB. I think his touchdown passes were second last year...am I right? Points matter. \"Oh\", they\'ll say, \"he didn\'t have anything to do with that.\" \"It\'s because he has all those weapons.\" Well DUH, but as you said, the QB touches the ball on EVERY Play...he damn sure had something to do with it. Those same people who don\'t want to pay Brooks \"top 5\" money would be willing to pay exactly how much to have kept Jake Delhomme on the roster as as backup? You see my point yet?

When the statistical arguments fail the leadership card is played. Now, all these people will pull quotes outta their azzz, but none of those quotes are from players who are in the huddle with Brooks. Furthermore those players indicate that Brooks IS the leader. I don\'t know about you, but I\'m gonna believe the guy in the huddle before I\'m gonna believe some guy posting on a web site or some \"expert\" who\'s job is to create controversy in the name of TV ratings. How about you?

I\"ll be ready to bench ANYONE if that player hurts the Saints chances of winning. Brooks gives them the best chance at winning from the QB position than ANY QB the Saints have ever had on their Roster...period.

Saints Insiders?
 

LummOx --

You just don\'t get it. I don\'t think Aaron Brooks should not be criticised. I don\'t think anyone shouldn\'t be criticised. You just seem to think anyone can say any old thing and it\'s OK. They could say the samethings about Deuce and I would defend him if I thought it was unfair. But, with you way of thinking -- \"It\'s all Good\" If you can\'t see that a lot of the criticism of Brooks is unjust then I hope you are never a judge.

Saints Insiders?
 

I found something that is very similar about quincy and aaron, both there mothers are black and that is where there similarties end. As far as lummox and Bmg backing off there statements of aaron, stick to your guns through it all and come to the forum with an appetite this sunday, by the way does recievers and tight ends not catching the ball go against Aaron as well, because i guest you want to bash on him about them not catching, i counted a few this past sunday at houston, ernie conwell had two by halftime, donte had numerous at seattle.

Saints Insiders?
 

Just to be fair to LummOx -- I would not consider LummOx a Brooks basher. He has criticised but that\'s OK. I have no problem with that. However, he did not throw out rediculous accusations and try to make unfair comparisions. That\'s why it\'s hard for me to understand why he can\'t see that a lot of the criticism is unfair.

I think LummOx might be under the impression that because myself and some others defend Brooks, that we think he is off limits. But, that\'s not the case at all. All I want is fairness and that\'s something the Brook\'s Bashers cannot do or they will be proven wrong.

Saints Insiders?
 

Let\'s have a fair comparison then:

Would BillyC and saintfan agree that a fair comparison would be Donovan McNabb?

Saints Insiders?
 

Just to stir it up... I saw McNabb on the sidelines as his team was getting pummelled.
He never smiled or laughed. He looked extremely pisssed off, quite concerned and angry. He was taking it personally.
He sucked, he knew it, and wasn\'t happy about it.

Saints Insiders?
 

:(

I\'m befuddled, I have no idea how it is that my name gets lumped in with the \"bashers\" crowd?

I just want to see the Saints win

Saints Insiders?
 

I must admit you guys are coming around. I can hardly hear a whisper about the great Jake Delhomme anymore. Now, I call that real progress.

Most everyone isn\'t willing to commit to the idea that Brooks will not get it done this year. I understand. I really do. The season is here and it\'s kinda scary that all that smack you been talking might turn into \"Crow Soup\" or \"Humble Pie\"

Progress is indeed being made.


[Edited on 17/9/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

Saints Insiders?
 

I\'m lifting this from the other thread.

I just want everyone to know that I\'m predicting big things this year.

Ok fine,

We win the division, we win the superbowl, Brooks becomes league MVP and sets the single season passing, rushing and touchdown record for a quarterback. Ends Warren Sapp\'s career with a stiff arm. Ends Keith Brooking\'s career by running over him in the second Saints/Falcons meeting and plays linebacker in the Carolina game and sacks Jake Delhomme 12 times and picks him off 8 before ripping his still beating heart from his chest and eating it before pitiful Jake expires on the turf. He legally changes his first name from Aaron to Kordell and slashes his way to glory. Is on the cover of SI, Madden 2005, and Chunky Soup all in the same week and goes into a coma after eating a Lucky Dog.

But plays all of next season from a wheelchair with and IV hooked into him and breaks all the records he set this season to easily repeat the superbowl victory. Is then inducted into the hall of fame on the spot and Benson signs over the management of the team to him and he becomes the first player/coach/gm/owner to lead his team to a 3rd consecutive superbowl win.

He then marries Tyra Banks and both of the Williams sisters to raise the next generation of great NFL quarterbacks and in 30 years every team in the league will be QB\'d by one of the Brooks brothers, except for the Saints who will have the only 67 year old pro bowl QB.

I did however really want to know if there is an anti- :hallucine:Brooks:hallucine: mood growing over in the front office or with the coaching staff.

Saints Insiders?
 

He looked pissed huh tweeky? Still lost too didn\'t they?

Donovan McNabb MUST step up and lead his team and stop takin things so personally. He\'s obvioiusly interested in his own statistics at the expense of the team. Maybe he needs to have a personal chat with his receivers and lead them into not droping all those balls. He sucks as a leader. All he does is stand there and pout while the other team is handing him his azz. They\'re obviously paying Donovan WAY too much money...no way he has top 5 statistics this year.

Gotcha!

We all deal with things in our own way. Thank You...thank you very much.

Elvis has left the building.

Saints Insiders?
 

BMG -- I applaud you man. At least you have the courage to say \"BrooksMustGo\"


Looks like I was wrong about the Bashers. It seems like I was mistaken believing that they wanted Aaron gone and wanted him replaced with, well.........anyone but Brooks!!!

Now it seems like they are willing to give Brooks the \"Benefit of the Doubt\" --

I\'m beginning to wonder what we\'ve been argueing about. I didn\' realize you guys wanted Aaron to be our QB.

Hell, me and saintsfan might be able to take y\'all out for a beer sometimes and y\'all can tell us how you saw the talent there and KNEW how great he was gonna be.



[Edited on 17/9/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

Saints Insiders?
 

I think McNabbs main problem was he just didn\'t have the eyes to own them that night. ;)

Dammm, And I stated earlier that I wouldn\'t take the bait. :mad:

[Edited on 17/9/2003 by tweeky]

Saints Insiders?
 

LOL. Don\'t sweat it tweeky. I\'m a professional. Don\'t try this at hime!

Seriously, you can see how obviously rediculous that sounds. Donovan\'s problems have not been entorely of his own creation, so my \"mock\" assesment was completely unfair.

That\'s my whole point.

<----- :D

Saints Insiders?
 

I\'m all choked up Billy.

But yeah I think he\'s over rated, I think he\'s lazy, I think he\'s lackadasical. I think he\'s the picture of a \"me-first\" kind of player. I think he\'s the kind of guy that would rather be making shoe commercials and hosting a talk show than playing football. I think we\'d be better off drafting a replacement.

But then I like smart, accurate guys who can throw a touch pass.

The space cadet hasn\'t shown me that he isn\'t what I think he is and hasn\'t shown that he can do any of the things that I think makes a QB great. Will we win some games with him? Probably. Could we do better? Yep. Is it a risk to dump the space cadet we know to draft a kid who might be a big bust? Definately. Do I think that\'s the only way we\'ll find a guy who plays four quarters every game? Yep.

And yes he\'s won a playoff game, but having seen that game, the entire emphasis of that game was, \"The Saints are going to try and play solid defense and special teams and not put all the pressure on their young QB to win this game by himself.\" So all of you guys who take teddy bears with #2 on them with you to bed: listen up.

You fellas are always the ones saying there are 21 other guys on the field too and the space cadet can\'t do everything all by himself. Let\'s remember that little Kordell wasn\'t game planned to win that game, or to even be that major focus of that game. Ricky had a lot to do with it, sloppy Ram defense had a lot to do with it, Az-Hakim had a lot to do with it, a pretty good defensive effort kept \"the greatest show on turf\" in check for 60 minutes and yes the space cadet did scramble for a TD, but he most certainly did NOT win the Saints only playoff game. He did happen to play with the 21 other guys who won the Saints their first playoff game.

I do like that Billy and I have an understanding. I don\'t agree with him, but he\'s totally welcome to have his opinion. I don\'t plan on getting on the space cadet\'s bandwagon. Now if the Saints go to the superbowl this year and win only because of the space cadet\'s efforts, then I\'ll say, \"Wow, How cool is it that the Saints won the friggin\' superbowl?\" I\'m still not going to be on the space cadet\'s bandwagon. He\'ll be our very own Dilfer in my reckoning, he just won\'t be able to thrown the touch pass.

Saints Insiders?
 

I personally think this whole brooks debate \"He Sux/No he doesn\'t\" is played out.

He\'s what we have, he is good, he may become great if improves. Gee that can be said about most QB\'s in this league.

Every QB in this league has stengths and weaknesses.

Fans will always debate their QB based on either their QB\'s strengths and weaknesses.

AB\'s strengths greatly outweigh his weaknesses (IMHO).

But that doesn\'t mean the weaknesses should be ignored.

Hopefully this week he\'ll put the issue to rest by whooping up on the Titans secondary.

Saints Insiders?
 

Tyra Banks? Hell I\'ll marry Tyra Banks. Today, with AB beating me on my back saying pllllllllllleeeeease don\'t take the girl! :cool:

Saints Insiders?
 

So I ask for a fair comparison between Brooks and McNabb, which in my mind is a fair playing field of individuals with similar talents and what do I get from BillyC and saintfan...who I directed by \"Brooks goggles\" comment at.........
a sarcastic reply that ignores the issue and beats chests that they\'ve educated the masses....

Saints Insiders?
 

NO -- I do not think it\'s a fair comparison, which is why I didn\'t respond to it.

Saints Insiders?
 

It\'s called \"selective hearing\", lumm0x, something I normally practice with my girlfriends.

Violent much?

Saints Insiders?
 

Billy, you don\'t think Brooks and McNabb is a fair comparison of talent and potential. Then what is......? You start it up then.

Saints Insiders?
 

I got one- Aaron Brooks vs. God

Who\'s the better QB?

Saints Insiders?
 

LummOx --

To be honest, I don\'t think it\'s really fair to be comaring anyone QB to another. Different teams, different situations, just different. All I know is I think all QB\'s struggle at certain times and Brooks is no different.

But go ahead and compare Brooks with McNabb, I think they are simular in several ways but in two totally different situations. McNabb has played with a defense that gets him the ball back -time and time again. Brooks on the other hand has to sit on the side line and watch for long periods of time and doesn\'t have as many opportunities as McNabb.

But go ahead and compare the 2. I\'m always interested.

Saints Insiders?
 

Interesting. McNabb is definitely the beneficiary of a more talented team in Philly. OBVIOUSLY. Just llok at all those other offensive weapons he\'s got! There\'s... uh... that one guy... and, oh... didn\'t they have that other.... oh... no... that wasn\'t them.

Where McNabb has one of the better defenses in the league, Brooks has one of the most talented and explosive group on the offensive side of the ball. But that doesn\'t matter.

I will agree with one comment though. Brooks and McNabb are not comparable. One will be a hall of famer and the other will just be.

These guys skirt issues all the time Lumm0x, and then they scream about how you\'re skirting the issue when you reply directly to their posts. It\'s rIdiculous. (Side note: to everyone on this board - we\'re all guilty of typos - however ridiculous is spelled r-I... r-I... r-I... diculous. Got that? That\'s r I diculous).

How about this comparison. Go look at Jeff Blake\'s numbers from the first 11 games of 2000. He had Ricky running for him, and Willie Jackson was the team\'s number two receiver. The offense was designed to be geared around Ricky. Less explosive, less spread out. His numbers in that year were almost identical to Brooks\' numbers every year since he began starting. Is THAT a fair comparison? If so, Brooks isn\'t much better than a Jeff Blake caliber quarterback. In fact, with more talent, more time in the system, and - according to some on this board - a redesigned system geared around HIS talents and featuring HIM, he has been unable to perform much better than Blake did...

of course, I\'m just basing these opinions on stats - and as we all know, those are completely worthless. The only thing that really matter is - uh - whatever Billy and Saintfan think. Their opinions are based on... uh... TDs and yards... I guess those don\'t count as stats.

Saints Insiders?
 

WhoDat --


Off all the things you have predicted for the Saints. Everyone of them has been wrong so far. How ya like dem apples?

Saints Insiders?
 

I\'m sorry - what has been WRONG?

Here\'s some more fun with stats:

In 1995 Jeff Blake\'s 3rd year in the league and first as a full time starter he threw for:
3,822 Yards
28 TDs
17 INTS
and a 57.5% completion percentage with???

THE CINCINNATI BENGALS!!! Where were Billy and Saintfan then? Probably predicting that Jeff Blake was the next hall of famer and Pro Bowl fixture!

Saints Insiders?
 

Jake Delhomme CAR 2 43 21.5 21 48.8 218 104.0 24 3 4 3 10 48.4


Let\'s talk about your boy Delhomme, shall we?

Saints Insiders?
 

I hate to step down to Billy\'s level, BUT...

I predicted:

The Saints would finish the season 8-8 (.500)
Through two games they are 1-1 (.500)

I predicted that the offense SHOULD be better, but would probably produce about the same, if not drop off slightly
Through 2 games, offensive production (which to Billy translates solely into TDs and Yards) is down over this period last season. Hell, just about any time last season.

I predicted that the defense would stay about the same. At best it would move up to 20th.
So far they have overperformed statistically. So in this case, yes, I guess I am wrong through all two games of the \'03 season. Of course, that opinion is based on stats, and we all know that those don\'t count for anything.

Uh, oh, and I said that Aaron Brooks (said, not predicted) was average to good, but wrong for the system. Hard to evaluate that statement, but.. so far this season Brooks is:
10th in total yards
18th in total TDs
16th in passer rating

That looks pretty close to average to me. Obviously I was WRONG.

Saints Insiders?
 

Whoa, whoa, whoa...

You wanna talk about Jake Delhomme????? After a game and a half? Yet 41 starts is NOT ENOUGH TIME FOR BROOKS?!?!?!?! Are you f--king kidding me? And you want to use Delhomme\'s STATS to judge him?

OK - let\'s use team stats since you seem to like that.

Jake Delhomme - Games played: 2, Games won: 2
Aaron Brooks - Games played 2, Games won: 1

next...

Saints Insiders?
 

Isn\'t a game and a half all Jake ever played for the Saints? Isn\'t that all you needed to see him play to proclaim he was a franchise QB? What a joke.

Saints Insiders?
 

By the way:

Our offense is #13 in the entire NFL>

Our defense is # 9 in the entire NFL

Aaron Brooks is the # 10 QB in the NFL


Like I told ya before WhoDat -- Don\'t let facts stand in your way of proving you are right !!

Saints Insiders?
 

You guys are really harping on that - can you not see that post was made out of frustration?

But you know what? I\'ll stick behind it. I\'ll meet you back here in ten years Billy and we\'ll compare Jake Delhomme, Marc Bulger, and Aaron Brooks.

Saints Insiders?
 

So are you saying then that our offense is performing better?

Aaron Brooks is 10th in the NFL in YARDS Billy. Not TDs. Not completion percentage. Not passer rating. Is YARDS all that matter? That is the only accurate judge of a QB? If that\'s what you think, then to quote you, \"You\'re retarded.\"

Saints Insiders?
 

WhoDat --

I believe when you said it was out of frustration. You have your beliefs and I have mine concerning the Saints. Doen\'t mean either one of us is right or wrong. What I do believe I\'m right about is Aaron deserves to be the Saints starting QB. It has nothing to do with me beleiving he his great already. Just because you and others beleive he is wrong for the system, doesn\'t mean you are right and doesn\'t mean he shouldn\'t be the Saints starting QB.

Saints Insiders?
 

Offense - 13th in the NFL in YARDS... tied with the TEXANS. So we have an offense as good as the Texans then, huh Billy?
Yards per play - 18th
We\'re also the 7th most penalized...

Why is it always that the stats that Billy uses are valid... all else are obviously just being used to serve a purpose.

C\'mon Billy - call me out. You\'re not half the challenge Saintfan was.

Saints Insiders?
 

Oh excuse my retardedness -- I was just using the standards the WhoDat has been using. Now don\'t make me call you out :mad:

Saints Insiders?
 

Call me out Billy. What standard is that? The use of statistical data? Yeah, if you have the mental capacity to understand any of what I have posted on the subject, you would realize that I have repeatedly stated that raw numbers like Yards and TDs are not nearly as meaningful as statistics in which there is a common denominator, like games, attempts, starts, etc. Thus, yards per attempt is more important than total yards. If Aaron Brooks throws the 10th most passes in the league then having the 9th most yards is no great feat. Can you understand that Billy, or do I need to go buy some crayons and draw you a picture that you can understand?

Keep on calling me out Billy. Keep on.

Saints Insiders?
 

WhoDat --

I\'ve seen saintsfan use common sense with you and saw where that got him. I don\'t wish to repeat that mistake. I know you are a broker and all but a challenge you are not. I don\'t need to type out full page reports to know you are wrong. You have no facts -- You have nothing. I just argue with you for the humor of it. You make no sense to me. You talk out both sides of your mouth. One day it\'s this and the next day it\'s that.

You are just a negitive person that isn\'t happy unless you are complaining about something. Not that I give a damn. Personally I think you don\'t like black QB\'s. I think this is what the problem really is.

Saints Insiders?
 

Wow - at least Saintfan can put up a fight - a good one at that - based on the statistics, players, etc. You can\'t even put together an argument. It\'s a simple one really billy. Common denominators and averages are taught pretty early in school if I remember correctly. Maybe you just forgot how they work.

I love that the only thing that you can come up with is that I am obviously a racist. Great job buddy. McNabb is one of the best quarterbacks in the league. Vick is probably the most explosive players and will be one of the best at QB. Dante Culpepper is a playmaker and seems to be coming around as a more pure pocket type passer. They are all great quarterbacks. But hey, I\'m a racist though...

uh, did I mention that I\'m hispanic?

Saints Insiders?
 

WhoDat --

Just the fact that you are giving props to McNabb and Culpepper shows me how biased you are towards Brooks. Like I said you got nothing as far as facts or between your ears!!

I could give a less if you are black, white, green, or purple. You still sound like a hot headed to me.

You had to know i\'d get tired of it sooner or later.

[Edited on 18/9/2003 by JOESAM2002]