Saints Insiders?
 

Wow Billy, you sure can\'t take it when someone asserts himself the same way you do daily on this board. I understand though.

Oh, as for my \"bias\", well I quickly looked at Brooks and the first QB on the list I gave you, Culpepper. Here are their career numbers:

Brooks
Completion Percentage - 55.8%
Efficiency Rating - 79.9

Culpepper
Completion Percentage - 62.3%
Efficiency Rating - 86.3

I would compare things like Yards and TDs - but you see Billy, Brooks has played fewer games, and thus to compare those raw numbers would be unfair to BROOKS b/c Culpepper has played more games, and will thusly have more yards and TDs.

I would guess the others would be similar. Further, we could compare things like winning percentage if you\'d like. Playoff appearences? NFC Championship appearences? What would you like to compare Billy? I can compare these guys on any numbers you throw out. As evidenced by this thread, you obviously cannot.

Saints Insiders?
 

http://banerunner.freeservers.com/images/owned.jpg


How in the world do you find these things? I\'m crying this is so funny.

[Edited on 18/9/2003 by JOESAM2002]

Saints Insiders?
 

WhoDat --

Look buddy -- Get this through your head -- I don\'t care what stats you throw out there. Can you understand that? Aaron Brooks has done just fine. He\'s improved in some areas over the years and he still needs to improve in some others. For a guy that says he\'s not anit-Brooks i sure the hell can\'t tell.

You and others constantly bash the guy and I stand up for him. Your opinion and your foolish stats don\'t mean nothing to me. It all comes down to you explaining to me why Brooks shouldn\'t be our QB. Forget every other QB and judge him on what he has done himself. Can ya do that for me? Can ya? HUH?

If not then you got nothing. Now I have been civil with you and we can continue to do that or I can get on any level you would like. Got it?

Saints Insiders?
 

BnB, I luv ya man. That is great, and I think it says it all.

Now, to Billy. I do not think Brooks is a bad QB. I use comparisons to other QBs as an example to A) show that he is not as good as you and others on this board make him out to be, and B) b/c comparison of your options is the best way to determine value (i.e. is Brooks worth the top 5 money that we\'re paying him?).

Brooks has played well compared to other former Saints quarterbacks. Of course, he is also getting paid more than any other Saints QB ever has, so he damn well better be playing better - don\'t you think? He has a strong arm. He has good mobility to buy time and find a throw, though his ability to scramble has dwindled significantly since his first season. So far this season he has played the best ball I\'ve seen him play. He is more efficient, and his completion percentage shows that. He still needs to show me he can be THE guy that the team rallies around. I\'d like to see him improve his accuracy, convince me that his head and heart are in every game, and do the little things.

Of the QBs on our team right now, he is undoubtedly the best. He is rightfully the starters. As far as NFL Qbs go, he is a decent choice. However, I continue to believe that this offense is better suited with a QB that plays a different type of game. That\'s been my opinion all along. Now - Brooks is coming along as a pocket passer, but he is doing so by being forced to ignore his natural instincts and abilities. He may become a good pocket passer, but I think there are better options out there if that\'s what the Saints are looking for. Again, I\'ve said this all along. How that translates into me being anti-brooks or a brooks basher is beyond me. Do I think the Saints could do better? Yes. Could they do worse? Yes. Brooks is a good QB - just not the right one for our team.

See that Billy? I made an argument in which I both criticize and compliment Brooks.

Uh, I almost forgot - you bill for classes is in the mail. I\'ll expect prompt payment for your schooling soon.

Saints Insiders?
 

Here\'s my NFL dreamteam QB roster in their order on the depth chart

1. Aaron \"the shoe huckster\" :hallucine:Brooks:hallucine:

2. Johnny Unitas

3. Joe Montana

Saints Insiders?
 

BMG - well timed sarcasm will get you everywhere with me. LOL.

Saints Insiders?
 

First off -- I have not said \"how great\" Brooks is. Second -- I\'ve never said there aren\'t better QB\'s out there. Third -- What you think about him not being a good QB for our system makes no sense -- They averaged over 30 pts a game last year. How many would another QB average -- 45? Brooks threw 27TD\'s -- How many is someone else going to throw -- 40? What defines a QB that is right for a system in your book? Completion percentage??

Saints Insiders?
 

WOW, I can\'t beleive this post is still alive. So much to say I am sure I will lose my train of thought before I get it all out.

Thanks for nothing Twinkie boy! I gave you the ammo to defend yourself with \"mentally challenged\" instead of retarded and you did not use it. What am I talking to here ... a wall?

I am curious if I am considered a Brooks basher? I have lots of posts to back up that I am not.

A pedophile? Where was you mind this morning? Or should I ask where your hands were? Never thought that bringing up \"twinkies\" would make you go to that extreme.

Note to everyone ... even god, if you say anything about brooks other than he is the best ever to play the game ... be prepared for Billie Twinkie to come down on you. Why is it we can say anything about Bellamy and it goes untouched but Brooks...
They both play for the saints, right?

Don\'t try to compare Brooks to anyone! he is in a class all to himself.

Personally I have given up trying to make sense of one un-named person on here. I just decided to make my logical sense and then see how red I can make his face. Can I be held liable if he crokes while reading B&G? Remind me to call my insurance agent in the morning.

Saints Insiders?
 

FWtex -- What do you consider a basher?

Saints Insiders?
 

Maybe naming yourself BrooksMustGo? :cool:

Saints Insiders?
 

BMG -- Like I told ya earlier -- At least I can respect that. Unlike some of the bashers who try to leave the door open -- just in case Brooks proves them wrong. Pretty weak

Saints Insiders?
 

So who are these mystery men? I keep seeing references to them, but I don\'t have a clue who they are.

Saints Insiders?
 

FWtex and WhoDat mainly although there are others. But of course they will say they aren\'t bashers. They say they just criticize. Do you think they are bashers? Just curious.

Saints Insiders?
 

Not really, when I think of \"bashers\" I think of someone who would say something like, \"Aaron Brooks eats babies\" or something along those lines.
I said that this was AB\'s year to prove his worth, and so far I\'ve liked what I\'ve seen. If I think that someone is crucifying Brooks for no good reason (like last week, when someone mentioned that he continually threw behind his recievers- which was ignorant, he only did it twice) then I will call him out on it. However, I understand the trepidation some feel about his ability to make the right decisions and lead this team through adversity, which is warranted based on past performance, which is what the majority of the arguments you get into with others here is all about. It\'s entertaining to read, but neither side will win the argument, because we won\'t know for sure until the season is over.

Saints Insiders?
 

LOL, Billie I thought my name would be in there but I have a little insurance on my side just for you. See I knew long ago this summer where you were going with your name calling and separistic posts.

Go back to everyone of my posts where AB was ever mentioned and you will find pretty much the same sentence somewhere in everyone of them. While you are at it give me some examples of my bashing that was not in response to comments you\'ve made first about AB.

Saints Insiders?
 

Die post, die! Somebody pleeeeeeeeeeeeese kill this thing. It\'s killing me!


http://www.free-graphics.com/clipart...ragon_4tn_.jpg





[Edited on 18/9/2003 by JOESAM2002]

Saints Insiders?
 

Just so you know why I chose McNabb guys....
he\'s the only name that saintsfan used to compare Brooks by his own accord

No one on here chose to look at McNabb and Brooks together until saintsfan did....

so since it was unjust to compare MacNabb and Brooks I wonder why Billy didn\'t call him out as he claims he will do whenever anyone posts unjustifiable comparisons??

Skirted my questions....skirted the whole WhoDat arguements and comes back with.....smack


yes, that is the opener and closer for all of your arguements Billy. You\'ll just talk smack until we get sick of arguing.....good plan.

Saints Insiders?
 

Psssst, New thread one down. I promise I was even more inflammatory in starting it. Honest.

Saints Insiders?
 

LummOx -- I skirted nothing. I told you I didn\'t think comparing one QB to another was fair. It\'s not fair because arguements can be made on both sides to support any argument. Did you forget I told you that? Or, are you just frustrated I didn\'t fall into your trap you had been waiting to usleash? You sound a little frustrated it didn\'t work. Better luck next time.

FWtex -- Thanks for admitting you left an insurance policy in everyone of your posts just in case Brooks has a good year.

WhoDat -- Now, I\'m not sure where you stand on Brooks. Do you think Aaron has done well enough to be the Saints starting QB? Or, do you feel like he will never be good enough in the present system with the Saints? You seem to be sending out different messages. Which one is it?

B&B -- My arguement hasn\'t been that Aaron doesn\'t have to prove he can do the things some are crticizing him for. My arguement was that he deserves a chance to prove he can do it. You are right about no one is ever going to win this arguement. I\'ve known that for a long time now. I\'m just a glutten for punishment.

JoeSam -- This is my last response on this thread.


Now let me see if I can clear this up. If you guys are criticizing Brooks because you see some things he needs to improve in, then I agree. If you are critcizing just to be criticizing and suggesting that someone other than Brooks should be our QB and try to give me reasons to support that, then we don\'t see things the same way.

It seems to me that many on here were suggesting that Aaron should have been cut and either A.) Jake Delhomme should have replaced him or B.) You don\'t feel like Brooks is right for our system and I want another quarterback PERIOD.

Now it seems like you guys are telling me that you are willing to give him the \"Benifit of the Doubt\" and merely wanted to point out his weaknesses.

Right? Or am I still lost? Show me the light !!


On a side note: B&B -- This whole argument reminds me of trying to make a sale. You know how when you\'ve been working on a sale for a long time and the potential customer is on the fence? The potential customer just won\'t commit one way or the other on making the purchase. So we try to qualify the potential customer to see if they are indeed in the market to purchase or if they are just wasting both of our time. Ultimitely we need to know where they stand. By that I mean are they ready to buy NOW !! That\'s what I\'m trying to get out of this whole Brooks arguement. Are they ready to buy NOW. Are they interested in the product (Aaron Brooks). Or, do they think the product is inferior and want to purchase something else. I\'ve used every trick in the book with these guys and I still don\'t know where they stand.







[Edited on 18/9/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

Saints Insiders?
 

To answer your question Billy - yes, and no.

Aaron Brooks shocked us all in late 2000 and showed us that he had all kinds of potential. The ensuing quarterback controversy that was created pinned him against Jeff Blake. I was one of the people supporting Brooks then. Why? Because I feel that he and Blake are basically the same type of QB with similar talents - and if a choice has to be made between those two, give me the young talented QB that I can groom and keep the older wiley backup to help teach the young guy and step in just in case.

So in that regard, yes, he did deserve and does deserve the starting job - as I have stated many times. However, I don\'t feel that he has progressed quickly enough, and the more I watch him the more I begin to doubt his ability to do a few things - I\'ve stated them a million times I\'m not going back into it. Additionally, our offense has changed - as you and saintfan readily point out.

To answer your earlier question - yes, I do think another quarterback could perform better in this system than Brooks. If that translates into more points for you, then yes, we could score more points. I\'m sure you\'re already thinking about targeting this portion of the post, but before you do, remember, YOU also agree that there are better QBs in this league then Brooks. If they are better, and you think the system doesn\'t matter, then they too could score more with the Saints.

So, why do I think he is wrong for the system? That\'s the real question right? It\'s simple. First, the principles of the system dictate that a quarterback needs to make good reads, good decisions, and get the ball out quickly and accurately. That is not one of Aaron Brooks\' strong points in my mind - and many people on this board agree. Secondly, there is only one team that has ever been able to successfully use a mobile QB in a system like ours - The 49ers. Steve Young and Jeff Garcia. Otherwise, every other team in the league at present that has a system like ours has a drop-back stand-up less mobile quick thinker at QB. Every one of them. So, are the Saints\' coaches just masterminds to the level of those in San Francisco - where they invented the offense and pumped out Pro Bowl Qb, after Pro Bowl QB (including our beloved Brooks I\'ll remind you)? History has shown that is obviously not the case.

I\'m not saying that because every other team is doing something that means we should - but damn, you can\'t argue with their results. All have been in serious contention in recent years while the Saints have been tanking and hanging around in limbo.

Yet again, (my lord I\'m a broken record), I do not think Brooks is a bad QB. He does make bad decisions more than I would like to see. He is the best option on this team right now, however I would still like to see the coaching staff go out and find someone to openly and unbiasedly compete with Brooks for the starting spot.

[Edited on 18/9/2003 by WhoDat]

Saints Insiders?
 

WhoDat -- I don\'t have a problem with you thinking that there are better QB\'s for our system. I just feel like Aaron has progressed nicely in our system and he had a lot to do with our offense leading the NFC in points. I think he does make bad decisions and I think he needs to get better and if he doesn\'t we need to have another QB. My whole problem is if you are saying that he doesn\'t deserve more time to correct those mistakes.

What ever the case may be this is just something that Aaron is going to have to prove on the field. I don\'t think either of us are going to win this argument with stats or anything like that.

Saints Insiders?
 

Finally Billy, we agree. The thing that frustrates me the most about your opinion and Saintfans - and it\'s a valid belief, so I\'m not saying you\'re wrong or ignorant for having it, I\'m just saying I disagree and it frustrates me - is you are willing to give Brooks so much time. After this season he will have had 4 years of experience as a starter. That\'s enough for me when you\'re paying the guy the kind of money we are. I too think he has to prove it on the field. I wasn\'t calling for them to find another starter this offseason. This is Brooks\' year to step up or step out to me. I have NOT closed the door on him yet. You are right in that respect. Not b/c I don\'t want to be proven wrong on this board, but b/c the jury is still out. Am I leaning in one direction? Sure, but that doesn\'t mean I think Brooks has no chance. I\'d love to see him start making the right decision, showing he can make great reads, and getting the ball out quickly. If he does that, I\'ll happily support him.

Saints Insiders?
 

What, exactly, is it, Whodat, that Brooks hasn\'t done in the first two games of THIS year to give you the impression that he isn\'t right for the Saints \"system\"?

Saints Insiders?
 

Well Saintfan, it\'s little things. Things that can be corrected, but still haven\'t been. In week one, he was leading our receivers directly into hits. He threw some bad passes that were behind players, at their feet, etc. That\'s a touch issue. Again, as I said before, the receivers being hit COULD be an issue with the system. In any case, I don\'t like seeing our receivers getting jacked by linebackers for a 4 yard completion, or having their heads taken off by safeties for a 7yard gain.

Last week, those Joe Horn eyes resurfaced. With the exception of a dropped pass to Ernie Conwell, and one or two to Deuce, was a pass thrown to any other receiver in the entire first half? Yeah, he did a better job in the second half, which I commended him for, and will do again.

Still, these two things listed above reinforce my belief that he is not great at making reads. Leading your receiver into a big hit may be something you have to do from time to time to pick up a first down on 3rd and 7, but you should know not to do it on 1st down. And are we to believe that Horn was the only guy open on the entire field in the first half last Sunday? He still isn\'t getting the ball out very quickly. He has reduced the mistakes, but still makes a good number. And while he hasn\'t thrown any passes that I would call extremely dangerous, he also still isn\'t being very clear in his decision to run, throw it away, or try to complete a pass when he is scrambling. Three turnovers in week 1 - that\'s not taking care of the ball.

Now, let me ask you a question Saintfan. I am saying that Brooks DESERVES this year to prove himself. I am also saying that there is potential for him to be THE guy in the NFL. It seems to me that you aren\'t happy unless I say that he has ALREADY proved himself - which, judging from this board, is a belief that ONLY YOU HOLD. Now, if Brooks really is so good, why are you so opposed to competition? I mean, he\'d beat them out anyway right? Why is suggesting that the Saint go and get a talented player to compete for the job such a threat?

[Edited on 18/9/2003 by WhoDat]

Saints Insiders?
 

Ya know, Whodat, who is known around the league as a QB that gets he receivers \"popped\" by leading them into hits? Do you?

BRETT FARVE

But then I guess you\'d have him shape up his game too huh?

I know very well that you\'re aware of the fact that when you send guys over the middle (which our style of offense predicates) they\'re gonna get popped. You KNOW this and you\'ve seen other QB\'s that YOU call \"great\" throw the same balls Brooks throws. Why is it that you can see past it where other guys are concerned but not where OUR QB is concerned? I can only figure your biased against our QB. Nothing else makes a damn bit of sense.

Man, my point is that (and everytime you post something you prove it) there is NOTHING that Brooks can do to satisfy you. You\'ve softened somewhat I\'ll agree, but you\'re still not happy with Brooks, and the things you aren\'t happy about are the very things that plenty of the best QB\'s in the game have been and continue to be guilty of. Short of Jake Delhomme I don\'t think there\'s ANYONE who could make you happy...and the funny thing is that with Jake you\'d be happy with far less.

Saints Insiders?
 

What\'s amazing to me is that you have taken my desire to see Jake play in 3 GAMES last season - and my use of his skillset as a good example of the type of skills a QB in our system should posses, and turned that into some obsession I have with Jake. Yes, I do like Jake. He\'s a local boy. He plays with fire. He\'s an underdog. So yes, I do like him - I want him to do well. But with the exception of one comment, which I made out of frustration (and Billy has consequently latched onto), I\'ve never said that Jake will be a Pro Bowler, or Top 5 QB, or any of the things you two say about Brooks.

Now, I asked you a direct question. As usual, you skirted it. So, Saintfan - if Brooks is such a stud, why do you so strongly oppose the addition of another strong QB? Are you scared that the other QB could perform just as well in our system and expose Brooks for what he is? An average or above average QB who is made to look much better by the weapons on his team... ??? Is that it?

Saints Insiders?
 

Brooks has had competition and has competetion now. Jake Delhomme had his chance and Bouman has his chance now. No QB is safe in the NFL and this includes Brooks. You just despise Haslett so much for not putting Delhomme in last year that you THINK Haslettt is going to stick with Brooks no matter what. Isn\'t that the real truth??

Man, you are really starting to nit-pik on what you expect Aaron to do. You talk about him locking onto Joe Horn. What about those 130 plus catches Peyton threw to Marvin Harrission last year? Then you talk about Brooks leading the receivers and getting them killed like he does that every game. Nit-piking is what your doing and frankly I could make Joe Montana look bad if I did the samething.

Saints Insiders?
 

When, sir did I ever say I opposed competition? In fact I never did, and in fact if you\'d do half the research on that subject as you do trying to dig up stastics to prove your point about AB then you\'d find quotes where I\'ve ALWAYS said if someone can come in a take the job from Brooks then fine. I have always fought you and \"08\" in particular about your seeming desire to scrap Brooks for any number of people simply because you don\'t like him.

A classic case of the pot makin reference to the kettle --

Saints Insiders?
 

i\'ve openingly bashed brooks.........so what? i\'ve also given credit where credit is due..
brooks is making the big money now, he should be performing big as well.....
no ifs buts or ands about it..
no woulda, coulda, shoulda. crap either......
i let this one go a long time ago,,,,,,now i watch and watch and wait......
if i may suggest..........let\'s all watch and wait...........
let this dog sleep with one eye open......
brooks is doing very well imo........i do believe he can read the defenses....
i am also stating things i\'ve already posted.....
enough........bang.....bang.......bang........one in the back of the head,
one in the forehead......
and one in the ear.........
billiy...............................billy.....................................billy...............................
enough of ab.................................................
please.................................................................smitty

Saints Insiders?
 

I blame the coaching for this. I don\'t like seeing Horn or Stallworth running as many crossing patterns as they did. The middle of the field should be reserved for the tight ends and Pathon 80% of the time. I don\'t mind it every now and then, but Horn should be running slants, deep routes, 5 and out\'s and 10 and in\'s, with maybe a couple of crossing patterns thrown in per game. Stallworth the same, allthough I would bump deep routes to the top of his list.

I thought he was throwing the ball fine, correct me if I am wrong. but I only remember two plays where he threw behind the reciever, and one that was at the shoe\'s. When I saw the one to Horn, though, I knew someone here was going to blow it out of proportion (not referring to you, but some earlier posts last week)

You are correct, but I think that it had more to do with who we were playing. Shawn Springs was out, so Horn was lined up against Lucas most of the first half, and Horn had his number. I asked in another thread if anyone was at the game to see just how tight the coverage was. You\'ll notice that after the half, they had Lucas playing Horn along with Tongue/Trufant/Williams always nearby, depending on the defensive scheme, basically double coverage. On some plays, that meant one less safety, which means more throws to Stallworth. I think the coverage was tight, hell, this is one of the top secondaries in the NFC, even with Springs out.

True. I hope this is because defenses have fresher legs at the beginning of the season. It was frustrating to watch, knowing the pocket would collapse at any moment, and all you can do is yell at the TV to throw it. Perhaps he\'s overthinking, which is dangerous. Oh yeah, a big hell yeah to the offensive line, they look good.

You know as well as I do that the interception was a freak occurance that could happen to any QB in the NFL. Still, two turnovers in one game is unacceptable by one player.


[Edited on 18/9/2003 by BlackandBlue]

Saints Insiders?
 

Two and counting? :casstet:

Saints Insiders?
 

PLease die!!! I am moving on. There has to be another topic that can be starte off this. Wasting too many beer brain cells on one post.

Saints Insiders?
 

i do in fact belive AB to be a terrible QB..... most qb\'s you see do not run into the rush (ie droping to far in the back of the pocket into the o-line pushing the de\'s to the back of him) and take a 15 yard sack.... the truth is he takes those sacks so he does not get an incomplete pass. The sack yards are run off the total rush yards, nothing against him.. he is scared to take a lick... does anyone notice that toards the end of losing games that he begins to complete these little dump passes to pad his completions... taht way, when someone who has not watched the game and just looks at the stats they think he had a great game....AND IF YOU HAVE TO SEND YOUR QB TO LEADERSHIP CLASSES, SOMETHING IS WRONG!!!!!!!

Saints Insiders?
 

And with a single post, this thread rises from the grave...

:EVILLE:

Saints Insiders?
 

And with a single click this thread is laid to rest. Some things should be left in the past... sorry guys start a new thread if you like but this one is closed... for good. This is from the worst of blackandgold.net. Many of these arguments are settled. Some of these members are banned.

[Edited on 10/12/2004 by Halo]