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Re: NFL COMBINE: DT's and LB's work out today and tomorrow!!
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The 3-4 is worse at stopping the pass because a team like the Saints can run a 4 receiver set and an OLB has to TRY and cover that guy. Good luck. The 4-3 is better at stopping the run because the DL are larger and meant to occupy blockers so that the stout LB's in the middle can fill in the holes created and the faster OLB's can string outside runs out. Simple enough for you? And by the way, 7 out of the top 10 rushing D's in the league were 3-4's by the way. Your math always seems to be off. Maybe you were an English major. |
Re: NFL COMBINE: DT's and LB's work out today and tomorrow!!
By the way, the only reason the 3-4 teams didn't make a clean sweep of the top 5 in rushing Defenses is because Minnesota has Pat and Kevin Williams up the middle and EJ Henderson at MLB. That kind of talent trumps scheme every time.
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Re: NFL COMBINE: DT's and LB's work out today and tomorrow!!
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if a team has 4 WRs then the defense better be playing a dime or at the very least nickel......no team should be in a base defense if the other team is running a play with 4 WRs Quote:
i thought the 49ers ran a 4-3.....didnt know they ran a 3-4 til i went back and looked......but technically there are 12 top 10 rush defenses because 3 teams tied for 10th place......vikings, eagles, bengals, texans, falcons, and titans all played a base 4-3 |
Re: NFL COMBINE: DT's and LB's work out today and tomorrow!!
With a late-season collapse and a 6-10 record, there was little doubt in Green Bay that there would be some significant changes.
There was talent everywhere, especially on defense, but the personnel wasn't being used at optimum effectiveness. The Packers had one of the top secondaries in the NFL, athleticism at linebacker and an above-average line, yet they weren't creating problems for opposing offenses in the same fashion as the Dallas Cowboys or Baltimore Ravens -- though not many defenses did. Still, the caliber of players weren't that different, so something had to give. Personnel breakdown After taking a look at Green Bay's current roster, and what the team might be able to acquire this offseason, Pat Kirwan thinks the Packers' switch to a 3-4 defense can work. More ... Packers coach Mike McCarthy opted to switch from a 4-3 defensive front to a 3-4, the same scheme run by the Super Bowl champion Pittsburgh Steelers, who had the top-ranked defense during the regular season. McCarthy hired former Carolina Panthers and Houston Texans head coach Dom Capers as his defensive coordinator to take over the scheme and teach it to players and coaches. The movement of one player off the line and adding one to the linebacking corps might sound simple -- football is just running, throwing, catching and tackling, right? However, such a shift in philosophy could be as radical as switching from the veer option to the spread offense. "We like the versatility it gives you," Capers said of the 3-4 defense. "Just in very general terms, when you're in a 4-3, it's pretty much predetermined who your four rushers are. In a 3-4, you know three linemen will be your rushers. That fourth rusher can come from one of the linebackers. Then, when you get five rushers, you have a lot of combinations. Hopefully, you've got enough flexibility in packages to rush different combinations in the 3-4 because you have another linebacker-type of player on the field." In theory, it sounds like a way to counter offenses -- such as the "Wildcat" -- that are becoming more diverse and feature more athletic players at the skill positions. In reality, the production from playing a 3-4, specifically when you have to transition from a 4-3, might not always give you Steelers- or Ravens-type results. Personnel must be altered. Coaches accustomed to teaching a 4-3 have to learn much of the new defense from scratch. New concepts and disciplines must be followed to the last detail, from the head coach to the third-string nose tackle. Middle linebackers in a 4-3 have to grow accustomed to sharing that space with another linebacker in a 3-4, and that's not always an easy adjustment for some players. Al Bello / Getty Images Nine teams in 2008 ran a 3-4 defense, including James Harrison's top-ranked Steelers, and only two failed to land in the top half of the league's defensive rankings. How 3-4 teams ranked defensively in 2008 Team Total Passing Rushing Scoring Steelers 1 1 2 1 Ravens 2 2 3 3 Cowboys 8 5 12 20 Patriots 10 11 15 8 49ers 13 20 T-13 23 Dolphins 15 25 10 9 Jets 16 29 7 18 Chargers 25 31 11 15 Browns 26 14 28 T-16 "There will be a transition," Capers said. "How fast you transition into a true 3-4 is based on your personnel and how well they adapt to the things you ask them to do. You've got to be flexible enough to keep some 4-3 elements but also keep enough flexibility to feature your best football players." Those best football players tend to be the linebackers, especially outside linebackers. Pittsburgh's James Harrison was voted the league's top defensive player and, with his 100-yard interception return of a Kurt Warner pass in Super Bowl XLIII, also delivered one of the most spectacular plays in the big game's lore. Dallas' DeMarcus Ware led the league with 20 sacks, and Miami's Joey Porter was second with 17.5. All three are outside linebackers, tough enough to play as a 4-3 end on run downs yet athletic enough to rush the passer or drop into coverage. For the Packers, defensive end Aaron Kampman, a tireless player who had 9.5 sacks last season, has been tagged to play the role. He is accustomed to playing with his hand on the ground at defensive end, which he'll still do at times, but he'll also have to fall back into coverage or rush from off the line of scrimmage from a two-point stance. "The biggest thing is when you play defensive end, you don't have to think," said former Cincinnati Bengals defensive end/outside linebacker David Pollack, whose promising career was cut short because of a serious neck injury. "You line up, you have an assignment and you do that assignment regardless. "When you move to linebacker, your assignment is predicated on formations. You have to know when it's Cover 2, if they run at me, what to do or what my responsibilities are if you see action away from you. There's a lot more thinking, so it can really slow you down. What killed me is I would have everything right and then a guy would go in motion, and that changed what I was supposed to do. "When you are (at) end and you're an effective pass rusher, you can get in a rhythm. You can figure out what the guy across from you likes to do when he run blocks or how you can beat a guy when he backs up to pass block. It's different when you play with your hand off the ground." The micromanagement when playing outside linebacker is why Capers said he'll maintain a lot of the 4-3 principles the Packers have used while making the transition. The Arizona Cardinals hoped to transition to a 3-4 front after Ken Whisenhunt took over for Dennis Green as head coach in 2007. Former defensive coordinator Clancy Pendergast said they implemented some 3-4 principles, but because of personnel played a "hybrid" front, mixing both elements into the scheme. The interior linemen didn't always need to eat up two blockers or two-gaps, like most 3-4 defensive linemen have to do. That was the big difference in how they played and why the Cardinals' front typically featured four defensive linemen, although Travis LaBoy, Bertrand Berry and Antonio Smith played as defensive ends and outside linebackers depending on the call. The biggest change in personnel tends to come on the defensive line. Whereas four-man fronts usually feature a nose tackle in the 300-pound range, another tackle in the 280- to 290-pound range and ends weighing between 255 to 285 pounds, 3-4 lines usually boast a nose tackle who's well over 300 pounds and ends who are between 280 and 300 pounds. Although Green Bay plans to add at least one outside linebacker, up front, it seemingly has the type of players to fit a 3-4 scheme. Tackles Johnny Jolly and Ryan Pickett are 320 and 330 pounds, respectively. Defensive end Mike Montgomery weighs 273, somewhat undersized when compared to Dallas' Marcus Spears (315) or Pittsburgh's Aaron Smith (298). The work of a 3-4 lineman is brutal and often unrewarding. Some of the best linebackers in the league -- Baltimore's Ray Lewis and Terrell Suggs; Dallas' Bradie James; Pittsburgh's James Farrior, Harrison and LaMarr Woodley -- play behind human Hummers at nose tackle in Haloti Ngata (Ravens), Jay Ratliff (Cowboys) and Casey Hampton (Steelers), as well as mammoth ends. The linebackers tend to go to Pro Bowls, while the linemen often are relegated to the whirlpool. "You've got to have the personnel to make it work," New Orleans Saints defensive line coach Bill Johnson said. Johnson was with Dan Reeves' Atlanta Falcons staff when Wade Phillips was the defensive coordinator and took over as interim head coach. Under Phillips, the Falcons switched from a 4-3 to a 3-4. The personnel wasn't ideal, and after a few seasons -- and a coaching change to Jim Mora in 2004 -- the Falcons reverted back to a 4-3, the scheme they still play. "The problem they had in the 3-4 scheme wasn't with one game," Johnson said. "There were 16. It takes large men to play that 3-4 over the course of the season. You've got to hold some people off those linebackers, so it takes good-sized people and some luck. "To have that defense be highly effective, it takes special people playing off the edge at outside linebacker. If you lose one of those guys, they're hard to replace. You've got to have not just good starting personnel but depth. "I prefer a 4-3, but there are some beautiful things about a 3-4." Mainly, Johnson said, it is very difficult for quarterbacks to diagnose pre-snap reads when facing a 3-4. In a 4-3, the middle linebacker and safety tend to dictate where the rush is coming from and what pass coverage has been called. In a 3-4, one outside linebacker could show blitz and the other could come -- with the safety, cornerback or inside linebacker. Or, as Harrison showed in the Super Bowl, he could be on the line of scrimmage, feign a pass rush and step back into coverage. Even though the 3-4 has been around for years, Capers believes it could be a neutralizer against offenses that are using more plays more often -- plays that used to be called only on third downs, when defenses went to nickel or "sub" packages. He views it as a defensive scheme that gets the best athletes on the field and forces more mismatches than a 4-3. "If you've got a number of linebackers with outstanding athletic ability, you can match up better with all the athletes offenses are putting on the field," Capers said. "It's possible to match all that ability on defense. You've got to be able to match up your skill with their skill." The Packers' change in defense will take time. Right now, coaches are spending in-season hours in meetings being taught the scheme and its nuances by Capers. Later, they will be challenged to teach it to players who might not have ever spent time in the scheme. Much of what Green Bay does with the draft and free agency will be dictated by the switch. It could prove to be a move that changes the Packers' future. By the way CANTON, the Packers were 26th in the league against the rush in 2008 with the 4-3, and 1st against the rush in 2009 with the 3-4. Speechless aren't you. Also, do the Saints remotely have anyone in their lineup that could be considered and OLB in a 3-4? I'll answer for you. No we do not. It really makes sense to draft a NT for a 3-4 scheme like Cody, with a defense loaded with 4-3 players with your first round pick doesn't it? I won this argument about a year ago, so you should probably just let it go. |
Re: NFL COMBINE: DT's and LB's work out today and tomorrow!!
should i read that? i thought we were keeping it short.
you hinted at something about the packers being awesome against the run this year and being terrible last year werent we a terrible defense last year? how'd we do this year? teams change from year to year.....the fact that you keep claimin yourself the victor of this argument makes me giggle because nobody here has given you the crown except yourself this article still said nothing about how the 3-4 is better at stopping the run except that the packers turned it around in fact it said specifically that the 3-4 matches up with the skill positions better because of the speed and athleticsm which implies it matches up with the WRs, tight ends, and running backs better....not better with the linemen which is where the running game starts you said we dont have any players that could play 3-4 OLB....you mean like bobby mccray, jonathan cassillas, stanley arnoux, and jeff charleston? |
Re: NFL COMBINE: DT's and LB's work out today and tomorrow!!
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Did you really just name McCray, Cassillas, Arnoux, and Charleston as your bright shining examples of a 3-4 OLB? HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! Hold on, hold on......HAHAHAHAHAH!!!! I'm sure defenses would tremble a quake. I just had to block Demarcus Ware, how on earth am I going to stop Jeff Charleston??? Seriously, do you even watch football? Be honest. By the way the Saints went from 17th agains the rush in 2008 to 21st against the rush in 2009. That's such amazing improvement! You know what personnel was different from the Saints from 2008 to 2009? Sharper and Greer. That's it. Grant, Ellis, Clancy, Smith, Vilma, Fujita, Shanle. Front seven all the same. You know what was different about the Packers? They switched schemes and added Clay Matthews and IMMEDIATELY shot from the bottom of the league to first. I'm sure it was the personnel turnover. Just go away. The 3-4 is a better run stopping defense than the 4-3 and we are not drafting Cody. That is all. |
Re: NFL COMBINE: DT's and LB's work out today and tomorrow!!
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Re: NFL COMBINE: DT's and LB's work out today and tomorrow!!
Let's just say I am EAGERLY awaiting April 22nd. Please God, I don't ask for much. Please let Cody be available at 32 when we pick. Please.
You don't honestly think we take him there if available? Right? You just like to argue, correct? |
Re: NFL COMBINE: DT's and LB's work out today and tomorrow!!
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plus, you still havent shown why the 3-4 is designed to stop the run better....you are very good at posting long drawn out descriptions and articles but none of them have shown anything to help prove your point.....the one argument you have is that the packers improved their team in 1 year in 2005 we were the #20th ranked offense......in 2006 we were ranked #1 teams improve from year to year......its the nature of the league |
Re: NFL COMBINE: DT's and LB's work out today and tomorrow!!
a good 34 or a good 43 defense against the run is based on the personal.
now the results that surprised me the most was his: Edds, A.J. 4.28 20 Yd Shuttle This is amazing for this guy. I have been waiting for this 20 A.J. Edds, Iowa Height: 6-4. Weight: 246. Projected 40 Time: 4.72. Combine 40 Time: 4.67. Benchx225: 16. Vertical: . Projected Round (2010): 2-3. 1/8/10: Perhaps the top pure strongside linebacker in the 2010 NFL Draft, he is on my radar. Weatherspoon will be gone unless the saints move up the board. Jerry Hughes, TCU Height: 6-2. Weight: 255. Projected 40 Time: 4.64. Combine 40 Time: 4.59. Benchx225: 26 Dropping just enough for the saints? now the saints need to watch this guy at NT Linval Joseph, East Carolina Height: 6-4. Weight: 328. Projected 40 Time: 5.27. Combine 40 Time: 5.09. Benchx225: 39. Vertical: . Projected Round (2009): 3-4. now if the saints walked away with these three WLB Jerry Hughes, TCU, 6-2, 255, 4.59 SLB, A.J. Edds, Iowa, 6-4, 246, 4.67 DT, Linval Joseph, East Carolina, 6-4, 328, 5.09 I will be happy |
Re: NFL COMBINE: DT's and LB's work out today and tomorrow!!
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Re: NFL COMBINE: DT's and LB's work out today and tomorrow!!
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When I find myself in need of draft info Brother Hagan comes to me... Speaking words of widsom, It is he It is he, it is he, it is he, it is he... Speaking words of widsom, it is he. |
Re: NFL COMBINE: DT's and LB's work out today and tomorrow!!
Stockman is right here. Cody would be a terrible pick for the Saints.
He's best suited for a 3-4 where his primary responsibility is taking up space. In a 4-3, I don't think he'd have the necessary speed to make as much of a difference. Could he do it? Probably, but why gamble a first round pick on him? Besides, if he's this sloppy at the combine, you'd have to expect him to be sloppy come training camp. That sloppiness means he can only play one or two downs in a row without getting winded. |
Re: NFL COMBINE: DT's and LB's work out today and tomorrow!!
2010 combine full of storylinesScouts still wondering about CB Cox and OT CampbellEmailPrintComments
0 By Todd McShay Scouts Inc. Archive Editor's note: Results in the 40-yard dash and other timed events are unofficial unless otherwise noted. The 2010 NFL Scouting Combine is in the books and now it's time to sift through all the numbers, results and rumors. Here are some of our thoughts as we close in on the final seven weeks of the draft process: Signed, sealed, delivered It should be clear sailing for these first-round talents, all of whom locked down their status during the combine: 1. Nebraska DT Ndamukong Suh -- One of the big questions coming into the combine was whether one of the to premier defensive tackles in this class would step up, and while Suh did not open up a huge gap between himself and Oklahoma's Gerald McCoy, he did have the more complete performance. Suh looks the part of a franchise player with his height and wide frame, and he has a presence about him that McCoy does not. He showed impressive strength with 32 repetitions on the 225-pound bench press and looked good during drills. Looking slightly better overall does not guarantee that Suh will come off the board ahead of McCoy but it is hard for us to imagine Suh still being on the board when the Washington Redskins come on the clock at No. 4 overall. 2. Tennessee S Eric Berry -- Premier players do not always have the best combine workouts, but what we saw from Berry makes it easy for us to rubber-stamp him as the No. 1 safety on our board. Berry did everything scouts wanted to see -- from bulking up to 211 pounds to posting a 4.47-second 40-yard dash to finishing second among defensive backs in the broad jump (10-foot-10) and vertical jump (43 inches) -- to solidify his standing as the top overall defensive back in 2010. While you have to consider the fact that safety is further down the line in terms of positional value it is still conceivable that Berry could go third overall to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, fifth to the Kansas City Chiefs, seventh to the Cleveland Browns, and at worst 13th to the San Francisco 49ers. 3. Clemson RB C.J. Spiller -- Spiller blazed a 4.37 in the 40 and put up 18 solid reps on the bench press, and while did not perform in any other areas he did not need to in order to separate himself from the rest of the running back class. Spiller is a versatile back who contributes in the passing game and as a kickoff returner, and now the only question is how early teams are willing to draft a running back. The Seattle Seahawks might be a reach at No. 6 overall but Seattle would surely love to snatch Spiller up at No. 14. Red flags Here's a look at three first-round talents who now face pressure-packed pro days: 1. Florida CB Joe Haden -- Not only were Haden's 4.57 and 4.58 times in the 40 much higher than expected he also did not look fluid when opening his hips and changing directions. His task at Florida's March 17 pro day is now two-fold: Haden must run in the 4.4s and move well or risk his stock taking another hit. He looked quick and explosive out of his backpedal at times in Indianapolis but teams are no doubt poring over his game film to see if there is something they missed, and unless Haden proves the combine was a fluke he risks his stock taking another hit. 2. Alabama ILB Rolando McClain -- McClain opted out of combine workouts and reports are that he has been bothered by a hamstring injury since some time before the BCS championship game. He did take part in medical examinations and interviews and we like his instincts, size and tackling ability, but there are questions about his top-end speed. All indications are that McClain will be ready for Alabama's March 10 pro day and a time in the 4.7s will be good enough for him because his instincts and recognition allow him to play faster than his timed speed. Should McClain turn in a slow time at his pro day some teams will wonder if he was dodging the combine because he was worried about his speed, but right now we have no reason to believe this his hamstring injury is not legitimate. 3. Arizona TE Rob Gronkowski -- Gronkowski showed up for the medical exams -- which is important for a player who missed the entire 2009 season after back surgery to fix a herniated disk and nerve injury in his back -- and he showed good strength with 23 reps on the bench. Gronkowski certainly looks the part but must show teams his back is sound enough to run the entire route tree, get in and out of cuts smoothly and adjust well to balls outside his frame. Scouts want to know if he is the same player who put up 47 catches for 672 yards and 10 touchdowns in 2008, and a good workout that includes a 40 in the low-4.7 range could put some pressure on No.1 TE Jermaine Gresham of Oklahoma. Back to work A prospect should neither soar nor tailspin after a surprising workout but scouts cannot ignore such numbers, either. Teams must go back to work after good and bad workouts to determine a player's true ability, beginning with more film study. Here are the six players from this year's combine who fit that category and have the biggest discrepancy between their workouts and game tape: Better on tape 1. Oklahoma State CB Perrish Cox -- He ran just 4.55 in the 40 and did not stand out in drills, and in a very competitive cornerback class Cox failed to take advantage of a big opportunity. However, he is the perfect example of someone who is a better football player than athlete. Cox closes quickly on film has good burst out of his backpedal and shows a second gear when tracking deep balls, and while his footwork and technique and footwork need polishing Cox has the instincts and aggressiveness to overcome that. His 40 time is a concern but teams surely like what they see from Cox on tape. 2. Ole Miss RB Dexter McCluster -- The pint-sized (5-8¾, 172) McCluster clocked a 4.58 that was disappointing by his standards, but he is more quick than fast and his 4.06 second 20-yard shuttle and 37.4-inch vertical jump show he has good explosiveness. He is a versatile player who can line up all over the backfield and in the slot to create mismatches, and he also has the ability to contribute in the return game, so McCluster remains in the late-second or early-third round range in our eyes. 3. Kansas WR Dezmon Briscoe -- His 4.64 in the 40 was not great and Briscoe did not wow anyone with his workouts, and we thought he would be quicker and more explosive than he appeared during drills. However, at 6-2 and 207 pounds Briscoe has the size, savvy and body control to shield balls from defenders and will battles when the ball is in the air. He also shows good quickness on film and could offer help to teams looking for a No. 2-type receiver in the late-second or early-third round. Better in shorts 1. Maryland OT Bruce Campbell -- It's hard to describe just how good Campbell looked from a physical standpoint. He is as close to chiseled as you will ever see in a 316-pounder and his 6-6⅜ frame has scouts salivating. Add in a 4.85 in the 40, 36 reps on the bench and a 32-inch vertical jump and his potential only increases. The film reveals a lot of holes in Campbell's game, though. His footwork and technique need major developing and there are concerns about the fact that he started only 17 games during his college career, so he still looks like a bit of a project. Campbell clearly has the tools to develop with good coaching, though, and that's why his workout likely solidified himself as a late-first-round pick. 2. Louisville WR Scott Long -- Long (6-2⅛, 216) quietly had the best workout among the wide receivers in attendance. He clocked a 4.46, broad-jumped 10-3, turned in a 41.4 vertical jump and ran the 20-yard shuttle in 4.09. He has just one year of football under his belt and is raw in his routes and breaks, and he also battled through some injury issues, but he got better as the year went on. Long gained more momentum with his combine workout and is worth a mid-to-late round selection because his best football appears to be ahead of him. 3. Fresno State CB AJ Jefferson -- Jefferson was the workout warrior of the cornerback crop this year. He shows flashes on film but his poor technique and questionable instincts led us to give him a free agent grade, and that clearly does not jive with the combine performance he delivered. Jefferson finished with the top mark in his group in the vertical jump (44), short shuttle (4.00) and long shuttle (11.04), and was also in the top five in the broad jump (10-6) and three-cone drill (6.72). Finally, here are 10 players who did not enter the combine with first-round grades but cashed in on strong showings and look to be on the rise: •Notre Dame WR Golden Tate •Virginia CB Chris Cook •Ohio State OLB Thaddeus Gibson •Tennessee RB Montario Hardesty •TCU OLB Jerry Hughes •BYU TE Dennis Pitta •Ohio WR Taylor Price •Pittsburgh TE Dorin Dickerson •Virginia Tech OLB Jason Worilds •SMU WR Emmanuel Sanders |
Re: NFL COMBINE: DT's and LB's work out today and tomorrow!!
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Re: NFL COMBINE: DT's and LB's work out today and tomorrow!!
And Jonathan Vilma played in a 3-4.
Point is, if you're a fat space eater, you're better suited for a 3-4. |
Re: NFL COMBINE: DT's and LB's work out today and tomorrow!!
Tell Ted Williams that. Tell Marcus Stroud that when he was in Jacksonville. Tell Kris Jenkins that when he was in Carolina. It's all about putting your players into the best possible position so they can succeed. Remember our very own Sedrick Ellis was better suited for a 3-4... and well, he's playing in our 4-3.
I'll ask you this Deuce, do you not think guys like Casey Hampton and Vince Wilfork to name a few couldn't succeed here because they're fat space eaters? As far as I can tell, Albert Haynesworth isn't the smallest guy in the world either... and he also plays in a 4-3. |
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I think that you and Canton just dig fat guys. j/k |
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lol for once im surprised papz agreed with me. he and I go back and forth enough i guess it was bound to happen eventually im not a fan of fat guys that cant play.....but fat guys that eat up blockers and wreak havoc in the backfield and on the line of scrimmage.....im all for a stalemate at the line of scrimmage is a win for the defense.....and nobody in the league would be able to push around an angry 350 lb man |
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